Phonewatch Cancellation

fred funk }{

This is what a big marketing budget gets you lads. With their advertising campaigns, I can understand the average Joe opting for their system but what I find amazing is when it is explained clearly, by several experienced installers, the pit-falls of their system that they still go ahead and sign up.

KoolKid

What I don't understand is someone comes on here asking for advice, and when that advice conflicts with what they thought everyone must be just PW bashing???
I, d still love someone to answer me how paying anything like €285 for an hours labour, while not actually buying anything, can be anywhere close to a sweet deal.
Anyway, there's still hope. He has a cooling off period.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

What I don't understand is someone comes on here asking for advice, and when that advice conflicts with what they thought everyone must be just PW bashing???
I, d still love someone to answer me how paying anything like €285 for an hours labour, while not actually buying anything, can be anywhere close to a sweet deal.
Anyway, there's still hope. He has a cooling off period.

He is obviously after falling in love.:D

What i am surprised at is how quickly it was installed.

_John C

Maybe 40 minutes

KoolKid

Quick install =less time to reflect and research.

Closov

Can anyone tell me how to work out the system programming code for a Simon XT? I cancelled with this shower today after another price hike letter and unilateral 12 month 'contract'. I've been trying to get an alarm installer out for weeks to do it for me, but it seems like it's not worth their while, as they just aren't getting around to it.

Or do I have to? It will keep ringing in to PW everyday, will it get upset if PW don't pick up?

Stoner

KoolKid wrote:

Quick install =less time to reflect and research.

That's not correct at all Imo. Often the quick installation is the result if a well thought out bit of kit.

At the end of the day, asking advice is fine people don't have to take it. That's said users are aware that some of the advice given , and I genuinely think it's sound advice but it's from competitors, and PW don't have a dog in this fight
I understand it's frustrating but good cases have been made here if people want to go down the road of paying the extra costs and see something differently then there is nothing to be done about it.

KoolKid

Stoner wrote: »

That's not correct at all Imo. Often the quick installation is the result if a well thought out bit of kit.

I was referring to their quick turnaround. Sign here, installed tomorrow. A lot less time for people to reflect on what they have signed for. It is common practice when using the direct sales technique .
What I am trying to determine is whether there is a breach of EN50131-1 here.
The rest of us are required to do a site survey/risk assessment and issue a written system design proposal prior to installation being agreed.

Jose Maria

Phonewatch are in my new build estate at the moment, we moved in Friday, they called Friday night at 9:30pm offering the system for €400 and €35 monitoring - salesman had all the jargon and nearly had my wife signed up untill I arrived, they've got at least half of the 40 odd houses hooked up already. I said I'd get back to him today after a bit of research, so this thread is an eye opener

Basically he's saying

PW has never had a break in and have 600,00 users

All other alarm systems can easily be disarmed in less than 30 secs by pulling the panel off the wall, their system is hidden in the attic and cant be disabled

They have a direct link to the guards/fire brigade

You can finish the monitoring with them after 12 months and easily set up the alarm/app for self monitoring

KoolKid

All waffle.
€400 for less than an hour install fee??
Their panels were the biggest victim of smash and grab with panels being pulled off the wall.
Did he never hear the Joe Duffy show on it.
The panel should not be in the attic as its more than likely outside the protected area.
How can you keep the panel for self monitoring when you don't even own it..

hollybee123

sounds like Phonewatch had an excellent sales guy.

tradingwizz

For me, since I was a previous PW customer, it cost me 199 for the basic package buit I had to add a couple of sensors which brought it up to 330. Really, over a longer period of time, this I just discount. If I sell the house, which I may do, the next customer doesnt have to pay for the install costs and I get a discount again in my my new home.

If the number panel gets taken, the alarm has already been activated and will already be activated. The main panel is hidden in the house and wont be found quickly. Anyway, no difference here compared to any alarm system.

For me it comes down to the monitoring service which I think is what PW really emphasize.

BTW, the installer stayed exactly 3 hours. He does 2 installs a day.

KoolKid

You have still being sold an install charge of over €100 an hour for which you own nothing????
How is that a good deal?
You still haven't answered the question why you reckon PW monitoring is any better than the others.? Yet all monitoring stations are certified and inspected to the exact same standard.
Guys, this is what happens when you have been sold something based on marketing and branding.
If the installer took 3 hours to install this it seems he wasn't very experienced either. We would install systems with full perimeter protection in that time.

tradingwizz

KoolKid wrote: »

You have still being sold an install charge of over €100 an hour for which you own nothing????
How is that a good deal?
You still haven't answered the question why you reckon PW monitoring is any better than the others.? Yet all monitoring stations are certified and inspected to the exact same standard.
Guys, this is what happens when you have been sold something based on marketing and branding.
If the installer took 3 hours to install this it seems he wasn't very experienced either. We would install systems with full perimeter protection in that time.

I don't know necessarily think it is better. I said I had direct experience from different sources that they were good which was good enough from me. I don't have any experience with the service of other providers and I didn't get any advice here as to good alternatives. So what am I to do?

KoolKid

Shop around is what I would always suggest people do.
I am not having a go here. As an installer, I am really curious as to how you consider an install labour fee of €110 per hour a good deal.

kub

tradingwizz wrote:

I don't know necessarily think it is better. I said I had direct experience from different sources that they were good which was good enough from me. I don't have any experience with the service of other providers and I didn't get any advice here as to good alternatives. So what am I to do?

Well you could have researched a bit, rather than coming on here, having us all advising you and then disregarding that advice.

Anyway it is you who will be paying too much for a lesser system.

kub

Well done on doing some research, all the best with your house.
So onto what that REP had to say for himself, but first of all let me tell you a bit of history.
In the early 1990's Intruder Alarm system manufacturers were moving away from the design of panel whereby the keypad was part of the actual control panel.
This was basically for better security of systems in general and for aesthetics.
This way you could have a remote keypad whereby the end user could interface and control their system from close to their front door and have the actual brains or panel of the system elsewhere in the house. Of course most reputable installers also fitted the internal sirens or even internal bells elsewhere again and away from the panel.
This way, if the worst thing happened, the alarm would activate, as in the sirens/ bells would go off. Kicking the keypad by the front door off the wall, did not stop the system from going off.
Removing the screaming internal siren off the wall did not stop the alarm going off.
By the time the actual control panel would be found it would have had sufficent time to transmit the activation to a monitoring station, even if this panel was pulled off the wall the external siren would still be going off.

Then a company called Telecom Eireann Phonewatch came along and began the race to the bottom.
It was they who introduced the panel that had it all onboard. The keypad, the siren, the communicator and the external siren was an optional extra. To this day this is still what they are pedaling.

Now if you had asked that Rep any of that, well he would not have had a clue what you were on about.
God love him, he has to make a living too, i suppose next week he will be selling insurance or even encyclopedias.

lgk

KoolKid wrote: »

What I am trying to determine is whether there is a breach of EN50131-1 here.
The rest of us are required to do a site survey/risk assessment and issue a written system design proposal prior to installation being agreed.

When my parents were duped by the scare tactics, what got my mum thinking was the installer of their existing alarm calling concerned that something was wrong with his work after spotting the PW bell on the house.

I ended up chatting to him and he went through a few points where they were not compliant with the above. He said he had complained but had never heard anything back, his theory was that the authorities were afraid to take them on due to their size.

kub

lgk wrote:

When my parents were duped by the scare tactics, what got my mum thinking was the installer of their existing alarm calling concerned that something was wrong with his work after spotting the PW bell on the house.

lgk wrote:

I ended up chatting to him and he went through a few points where they were not compliant with the above. He said he had complained but had never heard anything back, his theory was that the authorities were afraid to take them on due to their size.

Did they get any satisfaction from PW?

Aufbau

Lads, you keep saying to research other companies and compare.

I'm a newbie to all this. I don't know what to search under - home security systems, burglar alarms, companies, installers, or what. I don't know where to search or who to ask. I tried looking on the net but couldn't figure out the info on the sites that showed up.

Have you any suggestions of companies in the west that I could contact, or ideas of how I could find a list? How do I know if they're reputable companies or offer a good product? Is there anywhere to find reviews? How do I know I'm not buying a pig-in-a-poke?

Because of this ignorance and confusion, I would be very tempted to go with a company like Phonewatch. It would be so much simpler, and cheaper. They came to my door and gave me a quote which was a hell of a lot less than the company that next door went with - which I couldn't afford!

It's grand for the techies among ye. What's a non-techie supposed to do?

Stoner

Aufbau wrote:

I'm a newbie to all this. I don't know what to search under - home security systems, burglar alarms, companies, installers, or what. I don't know where to search or who to ask. I tried looking on the net but couldn't figure out the info on the sites that showed up.

There is a list of companies on the supplier sticky here offering what you are looking for. It's very straightforward. Posters here can't blatantly advertise on boards. They can however have their name added to this list. Some offer a discount for boards.ie members

My name is not on any such list , so I can direct you there without looking like a shill. But you will recognise some of the names on that list from this thread. The ones I know of on the list are good suppliers imo but I don't know them all, I'm not aware of a bad supplier there.

Aufbau

Thanks. Questions, though:

Is an intruder alarm the same as a home security system?

The few companies listed under intruder alarms are all in Dublin except for one in Cork. How can I find out about some in the West?

The rest of the list seems to be for sourcing components for diy installing. Is that right? I don't want diy.

The link at the top for approved installers - I followed that link before, it was double Dutch to me. And do installers also supply, or do I need a supplier as well?

This is what I mean, what seems very straight forward to those in the know is not at all straight forward when you know nothing!

Security Systems for Dummies is what I need...

Stoner

OP

You can use this forum to make sure you are getting the installation you require. You can make this a useful tool to reducing expensive additional add-on costs and have your requirements set out up front.

For example, panic buttons do you want one by the from door and in the bedroom
Keypads do you want one by the front door and another upstairs on the landing
(I've both of those and mashing a keypad or typing in a code is not a panic button a panic button is a red button, one push alarm goes off , fobs are not great either IMO. guys like to sell them because they are too lazy to have a fixed one)
Are you putting the panel in the attic, if so you will need the area protected so maybe a PIR above the panel.

Would you like to add or change to an LED security light

Wireless is not as good as wired, it's expensive but has its place and is the only option sometimes
You can mix wired and wireless it's a better than full wireless and harder to jam the whole system
Would you like the features of an app if so are you aware of the running costs
Do you want it monitored if so are you aware of the costs
So you want it certified, is it worth taking the insurance discount (I never have)
Will you own the kit or are you just renting it
Do you want more than one bell box

You should understand the difference between perimeter protection (alarm sounding when intruders attempt to enter the house )this would be sensors that detect windows and doors being opened, tapped or hit ( inertia sensors) beams being broken outside, contacts on the porch and front door.

Interior protection this would be pir movement sensors and pressure mats these detect intruders when they are in your house. (Too late imo)

The latter is more desirable but not always possible, areas with lots of windows can be difficult and expensive to alarm with perimeter protection so a PIR and a locked door between your bed and that area would be good advice.

You can get a crappy alarm installed , or a great one

IMO a good installer local to you will give you that.
Have the alarm maintained by that installer once a year get this into your initial price

Regarding monitoring the smaller guys sell this on. I've had a few services with me being the client. So there are good maned monitoring companies that joe blogs Alarms will connect you to, they have good rates on these places better than you'll get and they set the system up to contact them for you , for example I think Diamond point are one and Chubb are another .
Some of the biggest providers in the industry are not great when it comes to domestic work and some of the systems being sold door to door are imo very bad value for money and poor quality, some of the smaller guys put in poor quality systems too

So for you ask who the monitoring will be carried out by, the app and or an human calling you about activations

These are things that you are in control of.
There is no best monitoring system all these guys can hook up to huge call centres provided by world class companies
Perimeter protection is far better to have
Alarm panels should be in a protected area if not you need to pay a little more to have it protected anyone telling you different is getting your cost down but selling you a lemon.

Know the difference between a salesperson just looking for commission and a knowledge installer, many of whom you will get direct access to fairly quickly. Remember that sales person is selling you standard kit. You are better off knowing roughly what you want than being told what you need etc because some are selling to a standard set of equipment and that's just not good enough or specific enough IMO but it's how you can train a salesperson up quickly

I hope that helps. Note again I'm not on any lists myself so I'm in a reasonable position to offer any honest opinion to you.

It's not a difficult job you need to consider the above.

Type it out. Email the main concerns to the guys pricing it somewhat covering your requirements as best as possible, avoid having three different specs otherwise that last guy you call will lose out and the first guy might get it as you'll keep adding things on all the time as you talk to more guys

At least keep track of what you want

For example I'll lash down a small rough set of key points someone might have ready as a requirements

Panic button front door red button standalone
Panic button main bedroom
Keypad at front door
Keypad up stairs landing
Downstairs windows all inertia contacts
Downstairs windows all mag contact on main opening
Upstairs windows as down stairs separate zone
Velux windows in the extension mag contact only ( no inertia lots of cats around walking on it)
PIR in extension (pick up the velux window)
PIR in the bike shed
PIR in the entrance hall
PIR in the kitchen
PIR in the attic to pick up the panel
CO2 detector in the kitchen near the boiler on the main alarm
Heat detector in the kitchen on the main alarm
Smoke alarm on the top of the stairs on the house alarm
Smoke detector in the downstairs hall on the main alarm
Smoke detector in the main bedroom on the alarm system
Working bell box at the front of the house
Dummy bellbox at the back of the house
Back door mag sensor only (the dog hits it)
PIR inside facing back door
Porch door mag contact only ( it's locked from the outside 24/7) will only sound when opened
Front door of house mag contact and inertia ( as people can't knock on it I have a porch)
New LED security light at high level at the back of the house
I'd like it connected to the internet and an app
I'd like it connected to a sim card and an app
How much is the app to buy
How much is the sim monitoring on the app per year
I'd like the system monitored by a company that phones me if it goes off and will call fire brigade of the smoke detector go off or the police if the alarm sounds for a certain amount of time, or the police straight away if the panic button is pressed
I'd like the system maintained once a year how much is that


You could fix the spellings and copy some of the above. It will speed things up for you considerably otherwise you'll have three long chats.

Any new things that you think of as you go along or get advice add them.

KoolKid

Thanks Stoner for a great and detailed post. That covers most of what I would be saying.
There is one thing everyone seems to miss or not understand when comparing to PW. The PW price is purely an installation charge for a job that takes less than an hour. You are not buying anything. If you research and compare correctly like with like you will find most companies come out better value.

Stoner

Aufbau wrote:

This is what I mean, what seems very straight forward to those in the know is not at all straight forward when you know nothing!

You need supply and install, the installers provide that .
Security system and intruder alarm are the same thing.
Lads here can point you towards installers in the West

Aufbau

Thanks, Stoner, that was a great post and took time to write, I appreciate it and it gives me a much clearer picture. I think it should be in a sticky for all.

As for PW, Koolkid, that sounds like a leasing system. I'm not sure when they called to my door if it was pre or post new system. What was attractive about them was the initial price, in the low hundreds. What put me off was the negative press they get here and the high cost of yearly monitoring - close to the initial cost. On the other hand, the company that the neighbours used quoted me over a thousand initial cost which shocked me, and a low yearly monitoring cost. So, between the jigs and the reels I abandoned the whole idea.

Seeing as there is such variability in what you can get, is there any such thing as a ballpark figure for installation of a basic set of equipment for a standard sized 4 bed semi? Even something like if you pay below this much then it's not worth getting but don't go beyond this much.

If the costs are high is there not something to be said for a leasing type arrangement?

And any suggestions for installers in the West would be gratefully received!

KoolKid

Aufbau wrote: »

As for PW, Koolkid, that sounds like a leasing system. I'm not sure when they called to my door if it was pre or post new system. What was attractive about them was the initial price, in the low hundreds.

Thats thinking is what gets them all their business.People cant see beyond the initial price even thought they are buying noting. If a plumber or electrician call to your home & charged you a few hundred for an hours labour you would kick up like hell.

Aufbau wrote: »

On the other hand, the company that the neighbours used quoted me over a thousand initial cost which shocked me, and a low yearly monitoring cost. So, between the jigs and the reels I abandoned the whole idea.

But your neighbours company is selling you the equipment. Its yours. This also give you the ability to save yourself more money down the line by shopping around providers regularly for a better deal.
Around €1000 would not be a bad figure for a full wireless system with proper perimeter protection.

Aufbau wrote: »

If the costs are high is there not something to be said for a leasing type arrangement?

Do the maths & you will see its going to cost a lot more in the long run.
Base it on the life of your system being 15 years and you will see the other providers work out cheaper for a much more comprehensive system.

Aufbau

Yeah, I figured that 3-4 years of PW would cost the same. Trouble is I couldn't come up with a grand just like that. Dunno why electronics have to cost so much when they're mass produced. If that's the price I'd be looking at, unless I could start with a half set and build on it next year I may have to leave it alone altogether

KoolKid

You could start with a system that you can build.
You could also talk to some installers who may be able to stagger some payments etc.
Better to get something sorted now rather than later or too late.

Aufbau

Well maybe it's a possibility so.

All I need now then is some suggestions for installers in the West. Come on lads! :-)