UFH no go areas

BarneyMc

My UFH pipes are being installed tomorrow and the following day(s). I've been given a plan of where the pipes will be laid.

Are these all valid no go areas with the pipes: Kitchen units, kitchen island, stove area, bedroom wardrobes, baths, toilets, shower areas?

hexosan

Kitchen units only if there's food in them, but you could look at it this way with the whole slab acting as thermal mass stopping the UFH pipes 600mm from the walls won't stop the heat continuing into the slab under the presses.
Most kitchen island aren't fixed to the ground so again no point why the pipes can't be ran here.
Bedroom wardrobes also aren't fixed to the ground and why wouldn't you want heat in under where your clothes are stored.
Avoid toilets and shower units. If the bath is free standing again no issue with UFH pipe in under it.

hexosan

Only places I avoided was the kitchen units & area under fridge & freezer.
Kept it out of the pantry area, avoided the shower and bath areas. It went everywhere else.
Hope this helps.

Plus you'll save next to nothing avoiding these areas (pipe wise). It's the same amount of fits and manifold size.

Bonzo Delaney

Keep them about 150 mm away from your landing void area to allow for fixing of a base rail for the balustrade.
And if there's any other places were items might be fixed to the floor eg a stud wall under the stairs
Also try and figure exactly where your toilet bowl fixings and wash hand basin pedasel are going and get the pipes as near to where your feet would be it may sound funny but it'll niggle at you for life if every morning u get up and your right foot is slightly warmer than the left.

Water John

Just wondering why people are saying not in shower area?
The only place I would not have placed pipes in design would be under the kitchen presses and kitchen island, the pantry and hobs.

hexosan

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

Keep them about 150 mm away from your landing void area to allow for fixing of a base rail for the balustrade.
And if there's any other places were items might be fixed to the floor eg a stud wall under the stairs
Also try and figure exactly where your toilet bowl fixings and wash hand basin pedasel are going and get the pipes as near to where your feet would be it may sound funny but it'll niggle at you for life if every morning u get up and your right foot is slightly warmer than the left.

Forgot to mention the stairs

hexosan

Water John wrote: »

Just wondering why people are saying not in shower area?
The only place I would not have placed pipes in design would be under the kitchen presses and kitchen island, the pantry and hobs.

Why not the island.

Does my point about the thermal mass and heat travelling under the presses not make that moot. It's only 600/700mm

I've avoided the shower areas because I have wet room floors and will need to slope the concrete down when tiling.

Bonzo Delaney

hexosan wrote: »

Why not the island.

Does my point about the thermal mass and heat travelling under the presses not make that moot. It's only 600/700mm

I've avoided the shower areas because I have wet room floors and will need to slope the concrete down when tiling.

I done the wet room shower areas I just cased around the area where the tiled joint would be then poured the floors as normal after it was safe to walk on the floors took out the case then poured the dished floor in the shower areas afterwards. Worked out perfect no cold spots in the walk in shower

BarneyMc

hexosan wrote: »

Forgot to mention the stairs

If under the stairs is open then any reason why they can't be there?

Water John

If stairs is open, pipe it.
If closed probably no.

BarneyMc

hexosan wrote: »

Kitchen units only if there's food in them, but you could look at it this way with the whole slab acting as thermal mass stopping the UFH pipes 600mm from the walls won't stop the heat continuing into the slab under the presses.
Most kitchen island aren't fixed to the ground so again no point why the pipes can't be ran here.
Bedroom wardrobes also aren't fixed to the ground and why wouldn't you want heat in under where your clothes are stored.
Avoid toilets and shower units. If the bath is free standing again no issue with UFH pipe in under it.

Kitchen units - no idea which ones will have food or not so will assume all will have. Yes, some heat will transfer into the floor under the units but surely the less the better?

A lot of my wardrobes I plan to have fixed (slidesrobes, etc.) so good to avoid?

Yes, free standing bath so I suppose you're right - put pipes there.

hexosan

BarneyMc wrote: »

If under the stairs is open then any reason why they can't be there?

Forgot to mention the rail, I ran it under the basement stairs.

Water John

Agree with you Barney, but I never put them under the bath.
Whole lot should be laid in one day. Quite a quick job.

BarneyMc

What about stove area. Are free standing contemporary stoves generally fixed to the floor?

Water John

Keep out from the stove and hearth any way.
Are ye doing it yourselves or is a plumber doing it?
If yourselves have 2 of you and if you can get a spinner for the coils of pipe.

BarneyMc

Water John wrote: »

Keep out from the stove and hearth any way.
Are ye doing it yourselves or is a plumber doing it?
If yourselves have 2 of you and if you can get a spinner for the coils of pipe.

Heating company is installing the UFH pipes.

BarneyMc

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

Also try and figure exactly where your toilet bowl fixings and wash hand basin pedasel are going and get the pipes as near to where your feet would be it may sound funny but it'll niggle at you for life if every morning u get up and your right foot is slightly warmer than the left.

Are you saying not to pipe under the wash hand basin vanity units?

Water John

He said to pipe where your feet would be when at the sink.
Max length of each loop 100m.

the_pen_turner

is there a regulation that you cant run through door ways. if not then there should be.

BarneyMc

Water John wrote: »

He said to pipe where your feet would be when at the sink.
Max length of each loop 100m.

OK, gotcha. Sort of need to be precise with these things then. I'll check with the supplier tomorrow whether the vanity units will be fixed to the floor and if not then I can get real up and close.

BarneyMc

the_pen_turner wrote: »

is there a regulation that you cant run through door ways. if not then there should be.

Why?

the_pen_turner

anyone fitting a threshold strip or a door saddle is going to drill through any pipes

BarneyMc

the_pen_turner wrote: »

anyone fitting a threshold strip or a door saddle is going to drill through any pipes

How do you get the UFH pipes out of the room then?

the_pen_turner

drill out through the wall.


I was on a job few years ago and inherited the job of getting ready for the liquid screed.
the plumber said that there were new regs out saying that you had to go through the wall

murphaph

In a low flow temp system I see no problem running under any kitchen units. I would also just fit hanging toilet bowels and lay under them. In our bathrooms everything hangs from the walls to make cleaning easier. No pedestals. We left a space for a wood oven but those small ones would be no harm to the pipes if we hadn't. It just allows us to put in a bigger heavier one if we want to later.

Our bath sits in a polystyrene shell, so it wasn't possible to lay UFH under it but if it had been on rails then I would have. With low temp systems the bathroom will typically have a shortfall... It will not reach 24 degrees through the UFH alone, so every bit of floorspace counts. The heat will find its way out from under the bath or shower.

hexosan

the_pen_turner wrote: »

anyone fitting a threshold strip or a door saddle is going to drill through any pipes

Why can't you just bond the saddle to the floor there's 1001 different products for doing this.

the_pen_turner

hexosan wrote: »

Why can't you just bond the saddle to the floor there's 1001 different products for doing this.

if a saddle in fitted right then a good adhesive is ok but for threshold strips etc then they need to be screwed . the stick on ones are useless .

I fit a good few laminate floors a year.
I would say that 50% of all stick on threshold strips I have fitted in the last few years have failed within a year.
they usually fail because the floor is expanding and contracting . this weakens the grip of the adhesive and eventually someone will kick it and beak it off


I refuse to use them now unless they buy them and pay me to fix them later.

Calahonda52

Interesting thread: long way from double panel Quinn rads under the windows LOL

Water John

Yeah, not much in the price either and quickly installed.
Can be worked with any heat source but esp suitable for heat pump tech.
A different type of heat. With rads the air nearer the ceiling is warmer.

murphaph

Water John wrote: »

Yeah, not much in the price either and quickly installed.
Can be worked with any heat source but esp suitable for heat pump tech.
A different type of heat. With rads the air nearer the ceiling is warmer.

True, but only if installed appropriately for low flow temps. 250mm centres and you can forget ever running your heat pump in an efficient operating zone as the flow temp will need to be up at 45°C+

We're building with UFH and a heat pump. Friends of ours are going UFH and high efficiency condensing boiler. The flow temp from their boiler would allow them wider spacing than us, but they'll install 100mm centres like us so they can, should they choose, replace the boiler with a heat pump in the future. I'd recommend anyone laying UFH to ensure it is at least capable of running off low flow temps, even if the initial plan is to use a boiler. That means tighter spacing. The pipe costs buttons in the grand scheme of things.

Also OP, don't forget expansion joints in large areas and respect those joints if laying tiles!! There should always be a joint at door thresholds too and again, these joints need to be respected when laying tiles.

Water John

There should be NO joints under the floor. You can put flexi pipe over the pipe going through doorways, since the floor in each room is floating.

If using a high heat source eg condensing boiler, you must use at mixing manifold with pump attached. The water going into the floor must be NOT greater than 40 C.
A low source eg heat pump, can supply water directly through a simple distribution manifold.

murphaph

Water John wrote: »

There should be NO joints under the floor. You can put flexi pipe over the pipe going through doorways, since the floor in each room is floating.

If using a high heat source eg condensing boiler, you must use at mixing manifold with pump attached. The water going into the floor must be NOT greater than 40 C.
A low source eg heat pump, can supply water directly through a simple distribution manifold.

No joints in the pipe of course, but the screed should have expansion joints if the area is large enough to warrant them and they should be included at door thresholds.

As you say, high heat sources must be mixed down, but my point was not about the manifold (which is accessible and can be altered later) but about the pipe in the screed. This should be laid so that a low temp heat source can be installed later. This means max pipe centres of 150mm, preferably 100mm. If the centres are up at 200 or even 300mm this will never work efficiently with a heat pump as you'd have to have the flow temp so high that the heat pump would be operating terribly inefficiently.

Water John

Agreed Murph, 150 mm is fine. Some installers going 200mm, don't agree with it. Possibly OK up stairs.
Would have recommended 100mm by large glass in the past, but the U value of glass has improved a lot.

BarneyMc

murphaph wrote: »

No joints in the pipe of course, but the screed should have expansion joints if the area is large enough to warrant them and they should be included at door thresholds.

Is it the liquid screed installer who's responsible for the expansion joints?

Got my UFH pipes all installed on the ground floor. Upstairs tomorrow!

Water John

I think that would be the plumber. A lot of them don't do them. In fact I would say rarely. then, this is Ireland.
Neither have I heard of any leaks or cracks.

Good work Barney. Just interested to know is it multiplex or pex-al-pex pipe.
Just nosey, it doesn't matter which was used.

murphaph

BarneyMc wrote: »

Is it the liquid screed installer who's responsible for the expansion joints?

Got my UFH pipes all installed on the ground floor. Upstairs tomorrow!

In our case the pipe layer installed the expansion joints in our concrete screed. Maybe you can get away without them with liquid screed?

hexosan

UFH lads installed the flexible covers on the pipes at the threshold for me. You need expansion joints even with liquid screed. They (liquid screed) placed expansion strips across all the thresholds they also added reinforcing mesh around the bottoms of the stairs, on 90 degree corners, crossing over RSJ's and anywhere else they thought it was needed.

BarneyMc

Water John wrote: »

I think that would be the plumber. A lot of them don't do them. In fact I would say rarely. then, this is Ireland.
Neither have I heard of any leaks or cracks.

Good work Barney. Just interested to know is it multiplex or pex-al-pex pipe.
Just nosey, it doesn't matter which was used.

I'll enquire about the expansion strips today with all involved. No idea about the pipes but will have a gawk today.

delfagio

Water John wrote:

Good work Barney. Just interested to know is it multiplex or pex-al-pex pipe. Just nosey, it doesn't matter which was used.

The pipe I used was multi-layered pex-Al-pex. Not to easy to lay as its slower than the flexible UFH pipes. Laid it all myself so had sore fingers from all the bends

I used it for all my plumbing,

Screed company I used installed expansion joints at all doorways.

rampantbunny

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

I done the wet room shower areas I just cased around the area where the tiled joint would be then poured the floors as normal after it was safe to walk on the floors took out the case then poured the dished floor in the shower areas afterwards. Worked out perfect no cold spots in the walk in shower

Are your UFH pipes run over and back across the joint between the shower tray area and the rest of the floor, or did you enter the shower area only once, loop around inside, and exit once?

If crisscrossing over and back and you later wanted to mechanically fix a shower door/screen to the floor you run the risk of piercing pipes unless accurate measurements were taken.

Interested in how you did this as I'll be getting UFH pipes down in week or two and plan on running UFH to shower areas also.

BarneyMc

rampantbunny wrote: »

Are your UFH pipes run over and back across the joint between the shower tray area and the rest of the floor, or did you enter the shower area only once, loop around inside, and exit once?

If crisscrossing over and back and you later wanted to mechanically fix a shower door/screen to the floor you run the risk of piercing pipes unless accurate measurements were taken.

Interested in how you did this as I'll be getting UFH pipes down in week or two and plan on running UFH to shower areas also.

Leaving shower areas a no-go areas. Will post photos soon though so you can see.

BarneyMc

Just had a look upstairs and some of the 25mm floor insulation is lifting at the wall junction with the perimeter insulation. I suppose jamming it tight with very thin strips might do the trick or go around later with an adhesive and leave a weight on top over night?

Also, there are some very small gaps around some of the pegs where they fix to the floor insulation. Would it be a good idea to tape the worst of these before liquid screed is poured next week?

hexosan

BarneyMc wrote: »

Just had a look upstairs and some of the 25mm floor insulation is lifting at the wall junction with the perimeter insulation. I suppose jamming it tight with very thin strips might do the trick or go around later with an adhesive and leave a weight on top over night?

Also, there are some very small gaps around some of the pegs where they fix to the floor insulation. Would it be a good idea to tape the worst of these before liquid screed is poured next week?

Any pics

rampantbunny

BarneyMc wrote: »

Leaving shower areas a no-go areas. Will post photos soon though so you can see.

Hi Barney..my question was more directed at Bonzo Delaney...he was saying he did his shower areas also.

Bonzo Delaney

rampantbunny wrote: »

Are your UFH pipes run over and back across the joint between the shower tray area and the rest of the floor, or did you enter the shower area only once, loop around inside, and exit once?

If crisscrossing over and back and you later wanted to mechanically fix a shower door/screen to the floor you run the risk of piercing pipes unless accurate measurements were taken.

Interested in how you did this as I'll be getting UFH pipes down in week or two and plan on running UFH to shower areas also.

I ran them one line in , a loop then one line out in the access area, finished the bathroom loop then back to the manifold.
I wasn't to worried about drilling the floor as I put up a glass screen m


that was fixed to the wall and a rail across the top that was fixed to the opposite wall on the bottom , when I sealed it with clear mastic that held the bottom edge in place 9 years later still hasn't budged.

BarneyMc

hexosan wrote: »

Any pics

Will grab some later, thanks.

rampantbunny

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

I ran them one line in , a loop then one line out in the access area, finished the bathroom loop then back to the manifold.
I wasn't to worried about drilling the floor as I put up a glass screen m


that was fixed to the wall and a rail across the top that was fixed to the opposite wall on the bottom , when I sealed it with clear mastic that held the bottom edge in place 9 years later still hasn't budged.

Very good. Thanks for that.

murphaph

Our UFH planner also included expansion joints in front of the hearth to allow for expansion due to the stove being on and the UFH off. Personally I think this is overkill but we will respect the joints when tiling nonetheless. The bloody tiles cost a small fortune so I don't want to see them crack and lift!

THE DON FANUCCI

anybody know what size room would warrant an expansion joint in the slab? UFH. dining room/kitchen is 8m x 4m. the perimeter insulation will surely help with expansion/contraction

murphaph

THE DON FANUCCI wrote: »

anybody know what size room would warrant an expansion joint in the slab? UFH. dining room/kitchen is 8m x 4m. the perimeter insulation will surely help with expansion/contraction

Is it a single heating zone? If you can regulate the temperature in the kitchen separately from the dining room then you should put an expansion joint in between the zones.

Water John

While it is one heating zone, it seems, it would have at least 2 loops.
That line between the 2 could be used as a break line/expansion joint.