Fox Hunting License

Cass

Bit of an odd one so bear with me.

I was on the range yesterday and as you do people got talking about various shooting topics. I was talking to a chap, that had just been talking to another chap that morning, about his LICENSE for hunting foxes. Specifically lamping.

Now this caught me off guard as there is no such license so i asked what it was about. I was told, second hand information, that the guy with the license was issued paperwork by the NPWS which he had to fill in and get a "license" which would allow him to hunt foxes at night with a lamp. Apparently it was issued by the NPWS to combat pocching of deer and to know who is shooting foxes at night.

Now i was dismissive at first, but the guy that told me said the lad he was speaking to showed him the forms with the NPWS headed paper. He was convinced it was real.

I explained to him that section 38 of the 1976 Act as amended by section 45 of the 2000 amendment act states this is not illegal and requires no license as foxes are not classed as protected wild bird or wild animal. He agreed with that that was his understanding but the paperwork this other guy showed him made him doubt it.

I talked about other goofs from the NWPS have said/done such as saying 223 is deer legal, and Swifts are not, etc. He then told me that the letter he was shown said he had to be a certain distance from the road (it was way more than the only bit of "legislation we could ever find) and that shooting from a vehicle could be done.

It was at this point i told him he had to be kidding or more accurately someone is pulling his leg.

The NPWS, as i've said numerous times on hundreds of threads, are not a legislative body. This means they cannot introduce rules or licenses where there is no legal framework/legislation to back it up. As lamping (not just foxes) foxes is covered under the Wildlife act they cannot change, amend or alter this.

Only a Minister can introduce new law. If its in the form of an Act it must do the rounds in the Seanad and Dail and if it's an SI then how could it have been done as we've had no Minister for anything in the last couple of months.


Has anyone else heard of any of this or even been sent similar forms?

clivej

Maybe this

http://www.npws.ie/sites/default/files/files/Section%2036%20-%20Mechanically%20Propelled%20Vehicles.doc

Grizzly 45

Same like NPWS deciding this year as to what acerage you must have before issuing a deer hunting permit.I cant wait for the fireworks on that one when the slow burning fuse hits the charge this year.:D

Grizzly 45

Use of mechanically-propelled vehicles, vessels and aircraft in hunting prohibited.

36.—(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in this Act apart from this section but subject to section 42, a person shall not hunt or disturb for the purpose of hunting—
(a) any protected wild animal by means of a mechanically-propelled vehicle, vessel or aircraft, whether it is being so propelled or is stationary,
(b) any protected wild bird by means of such a vehicle, vessel or aircraft while it is being so propelled.
(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1) of this section, a mechanically-propelled vehicle, vessel or aircraft may be used to capture or kill, pursuant to and in accordance with a licence granted in that behalf by the Minister and for such educational, scientific or other purposes as are specified in the licence, protected wild birds or protected wild animals of a species so specified.
(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not make unlawful anything which section 3 (3) of the Whale Fisheries Act, 1937 , permits to be done.
(4) Subject to subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.



Bold emphasis mine. As it states protect wild animals or birds.Unless mr Fox has become protected over nite this is just a farrago of nonsense of the act by NPWS.

Cass

clivej wrote: »

Maybe this

http://www.npws.ie/sites/default/files/files/Section%2036%20-%20Mechanically%20Propelled%20Vehicles.doc

That is what i thought too Clivej, but as Grizz pointed out above those licenses are reserved for anything to do with protected bird or animal species. Same with the license for disturbing fully protected species, tagging, etc. IOW the law says you cannot do any of these things except under license. Foxes, rabbits, mink, etc, etc. are not protected and do not fall under the protection of the wildlife act so any license is moot.

After saying that i did not see the license so i could not say if that was it and the lads got confused that this was the new "thing" for foxes.

Rimfire Shooter

Isn't all wildlife protected under the 1976 Wildlife Act? & we get derogations or open seasons to kill certain stuff?

Cass

IT's broken down into three categories:

1. Fully protected
2. Protected
3. "open"

1. Fully protect means no shooting ever.
2. Protected means they can only be shot during the nominated seasons and with certain game only under license. All other species in this category can be shot during the season with your firearms license as your license to hunt.
3. Open (my own term) means they can be culled all year round, with no restriction on caliber, amount, and no license needed.

The "Open" category is what we generally refer to as vermin. When i say they have no protection under the wildlife act i mean they have no nominated season, no restriction on how they can be shot, when they can be shot (day or night with lamp), or needing a license of any sort.

Posts 3 and 4 in this thread names the various species and seasons.

richiedel123

I heard something about this a while ago. You have to nominate a farmers land on it and it's to cover you on that land aswell. You can drive around the land shooting from the jeep or whatever. But you have to notify the guards to when your going to be there. That could be all crap too. It's just a story i heard about 2 months ago.

Cass

That is exactly as it was relayed to me. Notify Gardaí, drive around, shoot from car. Exactly.

Rimfire Shooter

So can you legally use a vehicle to shoot foxes?

I thought you couldn't. So will this "permit" make it legal?

I cannot see it allowing people to shoot from a car on the road though?

I can see the benefit of using a vehicle sometimes in big fields etc BUT giving away the right to go where I want without having to notify Gardai is a step too much for me.

Knowing the way things go in this bannana republic it's only a small step from there before we have to notify Gardai before we go out shooting !

Cass

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

So can you legally use a vehicle to shoot foxes?

No.

I thought you couldn't. So will this "permit" make it legal?

In general, yes. However shoot is different from hunt. Researchers, scientists, etc hunt animals for the purpose of study and tagging. Shooting is a different and applying for a license is not the same as getting one.

I cannot see it allowing people to shoot from a car on the road though?

There is no actual law prohibiting a person from shooting from the road. There is only an antiquated rule from back in the English rule days which specified no shooting from a "road" with a distance of 18 metres from the centre of the road.

However such a law was never carried over into Irish law when the state was formed. We had it here before but i'll do a search and find the bit i'm talking about.

I can see the benefit of using a vehicle sometimes BUT giving away the right to go where I want without having to notify Gardai is a step too much for me.

The way it was explained to the chap and then to me is regardless of whether you're in the vehicle or not you must seek prior permission and have this "license" to shoot foxes at night.

Knowing the way things go in this bannana republic it's only a small step from there before we have to notify Gardai before we go out shooting !

The thing is, and ive said it many times already, that none of this license thing is legal if it is being rolled out. The law has not changed, there are no new SIs and as neither the Gardaí or the NPWS have legislative powers it's meaningless.

Bit like this. Check out post 36 for the result.

On a related note i see from that thread it happened in Donegal. I was told by my mate that the person he was talking to was from there. More of the same?

.243

sounds very like the superintendent putting his own stamp of the law and some serious hoop jumping on a lad looking for a centrefire for foxing via the npws licence that clive j pointed out

Cass

Sounds like alright. Between this and the other nonsense i linked to above looks like ye lads in Donegal have at least one problem Super. Assuming it's coming from him/her.

VBull

I did hear something about this several weeks ago but dismissed it as pub talk or bad information like Cass says .223 deer legal.

If you need a license to shoot foxes at night then i think it would be common knowledge and everyone who went to apply for a foxing round would have to have this license prior to application, just like applying for a deer caliber.

zeissman

Cass wrote: »

Sounds like alright. Between this and the other nonsense i linked to above looks like ye lads in Donegal have at least one problem Super. Assuming it's coming from him/her.

We have had a few of them.
One local super will issue moderators for stalking rifles but won't issue them for rimfire rifles as he says there is no need for one on a rimfire.
Another won't issue any moderators at all and has put a blanket ban on all lamping. He has instructed gardai to seize firearms of anyone out lamping.
The guy before him did issue moderators but he gave out serial numbers for them and you had to get this number stamped on your moderator then take it back to the station to show them before he would grant it.
I actually had one of these fox licences last year. A local ranger told my mate to get them to cover us when we were out lamping.
After reading this thread I don't think there was any need for it.
I would post up a copy of it but I can't find it.

Cass

VBull wrote: »

If you need a license to shoot foxes at night then i think it would be common knowledge and everyone who went to apply for a foxing round would have to have this license prior to application, just like applying for a deer caliber.

zeissman wrote: »

I actually had one of these fox licences last year. A local ranger told my mate to get them to cover us when we were out lamping.
After reading this thread I don't think there was any need for it.
I would post up a copy of it but I can't find it.

As i've said above this is illegal. There is no such license, your FAC is your license to hunt/shoot. More accurately there is no legislation to support this and NPWS and An Gardaí cannot legislate. They are enforcement bodies.

Another won't issue any moderators at all and has put a blanket ban on all lamping. He has instructed gardai to seize firearms of anyone out lamping.

This is highly illegal and he is leaving himself open to multiple court cases for illegal seizure of private property.

Lamping is 100% legal, and no license exists to do it. So to seize a firearm, that is being used in a safe manner, for a legal activity is illegal.Also blanket bans are, and in a couple of court cases were said to be, illegal. Once again, and i know i sound like a broken record, it has no legislative base. Even the Minister cannot make such a ban.

I would advice anyone and everyone that receives such a form to fill in to NOT do it, and send it to their NGB, organisation, group, or if an individual send it to a friend that is part of group.

This is an issue for the FCP to take up at Ministerial level.

Grizzly 45

Seriously what Cass said.You Donegal boys need to go and put in a collective petition to the comissioner on this officer well exceeding his authorithy of the law.
Seems you get all the right pieces of work up there .

grassroot1

This was all started by former NARGC pro Dr David Scallan there is a piece on the NARGC website about it. Predator control and the law is the section it is under.

Cass

Link please.

VBull

Looking at the nargc piece it says

It is not an offence under the Wildlife Acts to hunt fox and rabbit using a lamp (and other dazzling equipment, etc.) as they are not protected wild animals. It is, however, illegal to lamp protected species such as hare and deer.

So he clearly states what we all know, lamping is legal unless for protected species like deer.

Further on he states

if you wish to hunt from a vehicle (with or without a lamp regardless of whether the vehicle is stationary or moving), you must apply for a specific licence under Section 36 of the Wildlife Acts 1976 to 2012

The above is all new to me as i always believed any shooting from a vehicle was a big no no but its seems like you can get (limited) permission to do so.

Its something i may look into in the future.

As for blanket bans and other not so legal requests, a few years ago (new license system) i applied for a new rifle and when handing in my application my FO asked what make of moderator i was getting, i said i didnt know and was told to inform them when i got it. I presume they wanted to have the make on file, i still havent informed them and have no plans to do so but wonder how many people have done so.

grassroot1

http://nargc.ie/?s=predator+control+and+the+law
think this is it

zeissman

I had a look through the wildlife acts and it seems that there was an amendment in 2000 where they changed the wording from protected wild animal to any wild animal in relation to hunting from a vehicle.
In this case the licence would allow you to drive around lamping an area that you had permission to hunt on and then get out and go into the field to shoot.
Without the licence you would be committing an offence by doing so.
I don't know how to do a link but look up wildlife amendment act 2000 section 44.

J.R.

zeissman wrote: »

I had a look through the wildlife acts and it seems that there was an amendment in 2000 where they changed the wording from protected wild animal to any wild animal in relation to hunting from a vehicle.
In this case the licence would allow you to drive around lamping an area that you had permission to hunt on and then get out and go into the field to shoot.
Without the licence you would be committing an offence by doing so.
I don't know how to do a link but look up wildlife amendment act 2000 section 44.

This is it Zeissman

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000/act/38/section/44/enacted/en/html

wildlife amendment act 2000 section 44

(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in this Act apart from this section, a person shall not hunt or disturb for the purpose of hunting—

(a) any wild animal by means of a mechanically-propelled vehicle, vessel or aircraft, whether it is being so propelled or is stationary,

(b) any wild bird by means of such a vehicle, vessel or aircraft, while it is being so propelled.

(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1) of this section, a mechanically-propelled vehicle, vessel or aircraft may be used to capture or kill, pursuant to and in accordance with a licence granted in that behalf by the Minister and for such educational, scientific or other purposes as are specified in the licence, wild birds or wild animals of a species so specified.

Cass

That article seems to say what we already know, that it's not illegal. It even opens with "its not illegal to lamp foxes ................ "

The section 36 license could be what the guys at the range were discussing but without having seen it i'll never know. As i said earlier there is a difference between shoot an hunt and the article says it too. That even if you are scanning a field with a lamp you are in the act of hunting and this is prohibited from a moving vehicle and road for the purpose of hunting.