Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Ukrainians mark the 73rd anniversary of the formation of their SS division.

Options
1235»

Comments

  • Options
    #122
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    vaidasb wrote: »
    Hens, there is a tricky thing.
    It wasn't deliberate attack on MH17, because it does not help any side of conflict. Of course it was an accident. So why all the rage? Because nobody takes responsibility. Russia will never admit it, because it will go against their false narrative, that Russia has no military involvement in so called civil war in eastern Ukraine.

    It seems the blame is shifting all over the place. Why would you want Russia to admit "it" if you are convinced rebels in Ukraine shot the plane down :confused:


  • Options
    #123
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    HensVassal wrote: »
    After that you can take legal proceedings or whatever.

    Fraid not.

    Malaysia tried last July to table a UNSC motion to open up a tribunal of investigation into the responsibility for downing MH17...

    For some reason Russia vetoed the motion.... (what are the odds eh?)

    Former DPR defence ministor Igor Strelkov (mentioned above) is currently residing in Moscow & cannot be extradited anyway.
    Good choice Igor!


  • Options
    #124
    Vabal
    Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭Vabal


    HensVassal wrote: »
    But if you can prove who did it then why do they need to take responsibility? You just show the irrefutable evidence and they are exposed as guilty. After that you can take legal proceedings or whatever.
    To me the only reason someone would not admit to shooting down an airliner was if it was done deliberately. They'd be admitting to a war crime. So which is it?.

    It was not done deliberately. It was a stupid mistake, which actually ruined Putin's plans in Ukraine. Putin denied (and keeps denying) any military involvement in Ukraine (as he did in Crimean case). So admitting shooting down the plane would not help denying his military involvement, right?


  • Options
    #125
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    vaidasb wrote: »
    It was not done deliberately. It was a stupid mistake, which actually ruined Putin's plans in Ukraine. Putin denied (and keeps denying) any military involvement in Ukraine (as he did in Crimean case). So admitting shooting down the plane would not help denying his military involvement, right?

    Are you saying it was Russian personnel in Ukraine under orders of the Russian army who shot down a Ukrainian military plane only to find out later they had shot down a passenger airliner?


  • Options
    #126
    Vabal
    Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭Vabal


    HensVassal wrote: »
    It seems the blame is shifting all over the place. Why would you want Russia to admit "it" if you are convinced rebels in Ukraine shot the plane down :confused:

    Firstly let's agree what we are talking about when we say "rebels". Many of those so called rebels are Russian army soldiers "having holidays" in eastern Ukraine (how sweet?) or accidentally getting "lost" across the border (poor guys, aren't they?).
    So when we say - rebels shot the plane, we have to keep in mind, that it was direct Russian involvement. Russian army deployed hardware and when the mistake happened, it was removed back to Russia urgently.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #127
    Vabal
    Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭Vabal


    HensVassal wrote: »
    Are you saying it was Russian personnel in Ukraine under orders of the Russian army who shot down a Ukrainian military plane only to find out later they had shot down a passenger airliner?

    Exactly.


  • Options
    #128
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    vaidasb wrote: »
    Exactly.


    Well if that's the case then this is clearly an act of war. Why haven't Ukraine started attacking Russian targets inside Russia? Surely they would retaliate if a foreign army under orders from a foreign leader is shooting down their aircraft.


  • Options
    #129
    Mesrine65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,969 ✭✭✭Mesrine65


    What has the 73rd anniversary of the formation of Ukraine's first SS division got to do with a Malaysian plane being shot down FFS? :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #130
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    HensVassal wrote: »
    Well if that's the case then this is clearly an act of war. Why haven't Ukraine started attacking Russian targets inside Russia? Surely they would retaliate if a foreign army under orders from a foreign leader is shooting down their aircraft.

    Simple russia has 200,000 men and equipment very close to the Ukrainian border ,along with 30,000 men and 500 pieces of heavy artillery and several hundred armoured vehicles a large airforce and Putin is itching to take the whole country back under russian control .

    Why would they attack russia I wonder that but then again
    Schadenfreudia
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • Options
    #131
    Vabal
    Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭Vabal


    HensVassal wrote: »
    Well if that's the case then this is clearly an act of war. Why haven't Ukraine started attacking Russian targets inside Russia? Surely they would retaliate if a foreign army under orders from a foreign leader is shooting down their aircraft.

    Because it is more complicated than you think. Putin is playing a dirty game there.
    It supplies guns, personnel, etc to the region to keep the fire going, at the same time denying involvement. Why Putin is doing that? He thinks he has right to defend national interests, and having Ukraine cutting economic ties and influence from Russia and slipping towards association with EU he sees it as a national threat. He knows that it is not 15th century and this is not a sufficient motive to start conventional war against Ukraine. So his goal is to destroy Ukraine's economy by triggering and supporting civil unrest (the same scenario was or is being played in Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan).

    At the same time Ukraine understands, that military action against Russia will end up tragically. It is not much Ukraine can do without western support, but western countries seem to be more interested in trade with Russia. Also Ukraine's hands are tied by Minsk agreements, so it has not much power even in it's own territory.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #132
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,815 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Mesrine65 wrote: »
    What has the 73rd anniversary of the formation of Ukraine's first SS division got to do with a Malaysian plane being shot down FFS? :rolleyes:

    Apparently fascist Ukrainian pilots shot down the airliner full of dead bodies in their jet in a false flag ordered by the fascist junta in Kiev

    If it's good enough for the Russian evening news, it's good enough for me


  • Options
    #133
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    Gatling wrote: »
    Simple russia has 200,000 men and equipment very close to the Ukrainian border ,along with 30,000 men and 500 pieces of heavy artillery and several hundred armoured vehicles a large airforce and Putin is itching to take the whole country back under russian control .

    Why would they attack russia I wonder that but then again
    Schadenfreudia

    Seems very oversimplified. If Putin really wanted to gobble up Ukraine then why hasn't he? What's he waiting for if he has the means and the desire?


  • Options
    #134
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    Mesrine65 wrote: »
    What has the 73rd anniversary of the formation of Ukraine's first SS division got to do with a Malaysian plane being shot down FFS? :rolleyes:
    Mod: This. There's an MH17 thread, use that for the plane stuff please.


  • Options
    #135
    Vabal
    Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭Vabal


    HensVassal wrote: »
    Seems very oversimplified. If Putin really wanted to gobble up Ukraine then why hasn't he? What's he waiting for if he has the means and the desire?

    Because then he would turn himself to another Hitler in the world eyes. And he knows that the western world will have all reasons to end him. He is trying to play dirty games at the same time trying to look a good guy.

    But the worst is that the world still dealing with hims as with a "good guy". Economic sanctions is not sufficient response to Putin's actions.


  • Options
    #136
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,297 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    HensVassal wrote: »
    Seems very oversimplified. If Putin really wanted to gobble up Ukraine then why hasn't he? What's he waiting for if he has the means and the desire?
    He wants it to be shown that the people of Ukraine welcome the Russians, to ensure the Americans don't intervene. And as the Americans are assisting Poland in war games, the Russians don't want to give America a reason to attack them; it wouldn't be good for their oil business.


  • Options
    #137
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    vaidasb wrote: »
    Because then he would turn himself to another Hitler in the world eyes. And he knows that the western world will have all reasons to end him. He is trying to play dirty games at the same time trying to look a good guy.

    But the worst is that the world still dealing with hims as with a "good guy". Economic sanctions is not sufficient response to Putin's actions.

    Sorry vaidasb but your whole story sounds very far-fetched.


  • Options
    #138
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Do you think MH17 was brought down by a SAM or an AAM?
    Again, what does your gut say.

    Don't know for sure. And I am not going to pigeon hole myself by speculating. I am waiting for a proper investigation conducted by those who really are independent. Japan would be a good choice as they have the relevant experience in that area.


  • Options
    #139
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    Mesrine65 wrote: »
    What has the 73rd anniversary of the formation of Ukraine's first SS division got to do with a Malaysian plane being shot down FFS? :rolleyes:

    Some people came on here and insisted on talking about MH17. As it is such a murky subject they can run around in circles with it to stifle discussion about other aspects of the Ukrainian situation.


  • Options
    #140
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    Some people came on here and insisted on talking about MH17. As it is such a murky subject they can run around in circles with it to stifle discussion about other aspects of the Ukrainian situation.

    Wrong but but not for the first time .


    Unfortunately unlike russia we live in a democratic society where we are free to discuss all aspects of the Ukrainian conflict.
    Unlike others who came with an agenda
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • Options
    #141
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    Gatling wrote: »
    Wrong but but not for the first time .


    Unfortunately unlike russia we live in a democratic society where we are free to discuss all aspects of the Ukrainian conflict.
    Unlike others who came with an agenda

    What's with the childish digs?
    Can you not same something without a sneer at <insert your hated country here? ??


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #142
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    HensVassal wrote: »
    What's with the childish digs?
    Can you not same something without a sneer at <insert your hated country here? ??

    It is like Red Scare stuff from the 1950s. They imagine sinister Russians with bad intentions lurking everywhere. Then they wax lyrical about democracy as if we live in a functioning one. Typical stuff. Broken records.


  • Options
    #143
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    HensVassal wrote: »
    What's with the childish digs?
    Can you not same something without a sneer at <insert your hated country here? ??

    Sch is that you
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • Options
    #144
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    It is like Red Scare stuff from the 1950s. They imagine sinister Russians with bad intentions lurking everywhere. Then they wax lyrical about democracy as if we live in a functioning one. Typical stuff. Broken records.

    Lolz
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




Advertisement