Ukrainians mark the 73rd anniversary of the formation of their SS division.

Jimmy Garlic

With a torch light procession no less. I think that we all owe the Dutch a BIG thank you for saying no to ushering Ukraine into the EU. This kind of stuff is way too popular there -

Jimmy Garlic

Commemorations held in several cities.

My name is URL

Meanwhile in Kerry

Jimmy Garlic

My name is URL wrote: »

Meanwhile in Kerry

You can say a lot about the Healy Raes but I don't think celebration of Nazism and genocidal death squads is their thing.

Mesrine65

These are members of the Azov Regiment, initially a volunteer militia, formed during the 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine & based in Mariupol in the Azov Sea coastal region.

All members of the unit are under contract & serve as part of the National Guard of Ukraine which they were incorporated into in November 2014.

The regiment saw its first combat experience recapturing Mariupol from pro-Russian separatists forces in June 2014, being incorporated into the National Guard was their reward for loyalty.

Jimmy Garlic

Mesrine65 wrote: »

These are members of the Azov Regiment, initially a volunteer militia, formed during the 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine & based in Mariupol in the Azov Sea coastal region.

All members of the unit are under contract & serve as part of the National Guard of Ukraine which they were incorporated into in November 2014.

It saw its first combat experience recapturing Mariupol from pro-Russian separatists forces in June 2014.

Is it any wonder areas with a Russian majority aren't too keen on staying part of Ukraine.

My name is URL

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Is it any wonder areas with a Russian majority aren't too keen on staying part of Ukraine.

Aye, those Russian separatists just can't abide how right-wing Ukraine is :pac:

Jimmy Garlic

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

With a torch light procession no less. I think that we all owe the Dutch a BIG thank you for saying no to ushering Ukraine into the EU. This kind of stuff is way too popular there -

'My enemy's enemy is my friend'. Nothing new here. Carry on.

But before you do, this is some of the gentle humanitarianism which the Ukrainians had the pleasure of enduring under Russian occupation - the "good guys" - between 1932 and 1933:

Holodomor 1 and

Holodomor 2 and

Holodomor 3

Chips Lovell

Plenty of extreme right wing groups within the EU as well. It's not like they'd be a novel addition.

Mesrine65

Economic instability, populist politicians & a refugee wave is the catalyst for the wide-ranging spread of the far right in Europe.

A perusal of the list of active nationalist parties in Europe is an eye-opener to say the least...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_nationalist_parties_in_Europe

silverharp

a strange people , imagine setting up an Auxiliaries or Black and Tans division here

recylingbin

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

You can say a lot about the Healy Raes but I don't think celebration of Nazism and genocidal death squads is their thing.

Yerra, if oood gimme d'oul number wan, ai might find a torch

The_Valeyard

silverharp wrote: »

a strange people , imagine setting up an Auxiliaries or Black and Tans division here

It's not that strange when you have Russia in the back garden stealing the shed, sandbox and have their eyes on the patio & house.

Gatling

If it's on RT it must be true been it comes from the Kremlin.


Wakka, Wakka Wakka

karma_

Gatling wrote: »

If it's on RT it must be true been it comes from the Kremlin.


Wakka, Wakka Wakka

Yeah, if only there was video evidence of a parade with people carrying banners with obvious, WW2 era photographs printed on them on the date that particular division was formed.

Shurimgreat

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

You can say a lot about the Healy Raes but I don't think celebration of Nazism and genocidal death squads is their thing.

Stalin, Mao and the North Korean regimes, all beloved of the Irish Far Left, have also all given Nazism a fair run for it when it comes to mass murder. And these are the types of regimes the Irish Far Left would have no problem with here.

In many respects the Far Left and the Far Right have a lot in common, particularly their admiration for mass murdering dictatorships, both of the past and the present.

Gatling

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Is it any wonder areas with a Russian majority aren't too keen on staying part of Ukraine.

Nonsense really

ohnonotgmail

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Stalin, Mao and the North Korean regimes, all beloved of the Irish Far Left, have also all given Nazism a fair run for it when it comes to mass murder. And these are the types of regimes the Irish Far Left would have no problem with here.

In many respects the Far Left and the Far Right have a lot in common, particularly their admiration for mass murdering dictatorships, both of the past and the present.

going purely on the mass murder metric the far left put the far right into the ha'penny place.

silverharp

The_Valeyard wrote: »

It's not that strange when you have Russia in the back garden stealing the shed, sandbox and have their eyes on the patio & house.

true but the germans would have put them through the grinder in short order too

biko

karma_ wrote: »

Yeah, if only there was video evidence of a parade with people carrying banners with obvious, WW2 era photographs printed on them on the date that particular division was formed.

Never mind him, it's just a diversion. Attach the source credibility - RT, Daily Mail, Independent, Guardian, etc etc
It saves on actually having to think up arguments for yourself.

On topic, that's so weird. Why would someone want old tyrants back? It would be like Irish people wanting the Brits back again.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

esforum

silverharp wrote: »

a strange people , imagine setting up an Auxiliaries or Black and Tans division here

the Russians werent exactly nice to Ukrainian people ya know and it wasnt so much a case of "lets go kill some Jews" as a case of people believing it was the better choice for their people

Enemy of my enemy and all that.

I am not suggesting I agree with the decision at the time nor those celebrating it now, but its a mistake to think all SS members were hardened Nazis or even volunteers.

gandalf

Jaysus what shocker Nazis in the Ukraine! What next Nazis in Russia maybe.

suicide_circus

My name is URL wrote: »

Aye, those Russian separatists just can't abide how right-wing Ukraine is :pac:

They can't abide it so much they had to shoot a passing passenger airliner out of the sky killing all on board.

Jimmy Garlic

JT26 wrote: »

Western Ukrainians saw them as liberators against Russians,whether you agree or disagree they have had atrocities committed against them due to Soviet policies and before that Russian imperialism.

Stalins genocidal collectivisation policy and his purges affected Russians too you know. Especially southern Russians. Ukrainians weren't specifically singled out.

Jimmy Garlic

suicide_circus wrote: »

They can't abide it so much they had to shoot a passing passenger airliner out of the sky killing all on board.

Here you are stating this as if it is a fact yet it has never been proven. Ukraine still to this day refuses to release the air traffic control tapes. Why would they do that?

BoJack Horseman

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

it has never been proven

That's the line alright

Whatever happened to Egginacup?

Jimmy Garlic

esforum wrote: »

the Russians werent exactly nice to Ukrainian people ya know and it wasnt so much a case of "lets go kill some Jews" as a case of people believing it was the better choice for their people

Some of the worst atrocities against Jews were committed in Ukraine by Ukrainian and Tatar nazis.

Sand

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Stalins genocidal collectivisation policy and his purges affected Russians too you know. Especially southern Russians. Ukrainians weren't specifically singled out.

Any identifiable ethnic group that might have nationalist or separatist aspirations was singled out. In 1933 the Communists celebrated the crushing of the Ukrainian people by exterminating their cultural and political elites and starving to death millions of their people...all by accident? Its no wonder the Ukrainians viewed the Germans as liberators from Moscow's gentle rule.

Jimmy Garlic

Gatling wrote: »

Nonsense really

Oh really? I suppose that's why Ukraines large nazi element (the strong arm behind the Maidan coup) sing songs about murdering large numbers of ''Muscovites''. Nothing at all to worry about. They should have just let them walk in.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Gatling

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Here you are stating this as if it is a fact yet it has never been proven.

Well we know fact Ukraine didn't do it .

The CIA didn't do it

Commandos with jet packs didn't do it .

Russia did it . They also claimed they had videos of the radar that showed 2 Ukrainian su24s attacking MH17 but they have refused to release them why would that be ....

Jimmy Garlic

Sand wrote: »

Any identifiable ethnic group that might have nationalist or separatist aspirations was singled out. In 1933 the Communists celebrated the crushing of the Ukrainian people by exterminating their cultural and political elites and starving to death millions of their people...all by accident? Its no wonder the Ukrainians viewed the Germans as liberators from Moscow's gentle rule.

As I said before. Stalins policies ended up killing millions and millions of people across the Soviet union, including millions of Russians. "liquidating the Kulaks as a class." was his aim. ''Kulaks'' were basically all the peasant farmers in the Soviet Union.

Jimmy Garlic

Gatling wrote: »

Well we know fact Ukraine didn't do it .

No we don't. They have not been forthcoming with important information, such as the air traffic control tapes that they have hidden away.

BoJack Horseman

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

As I said before. Stalins policies ended up killing millions and millions of people across the Soviet union, including millions of Russians. "liquidating the Kulaks as a class." was his aim. ''Kulaks'' were basically all the peasant farmers in the Soviet Union.

Death fell disproportionately upon Ukraine though.

We've probably all read Anthony Beevor's work to be familiar with the name 'Hiwi'.
After suffering under the unparalleled evil that was soviet communism, any invader will feel like relief to some.

Jimmy Garlic

gandalf wrote: »

Jaysus what shocker Nazis in the Ukraine! What next Nazis in Russia maybe.

Are Russian nazis officially endorsed by the Russian government and incorporated as distinct units in the Russian armed forces?

PopePalpatine

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

That's the line alright

Whatever happened to Egginacup?

There were cutbacks in St Petersburg.

Sand

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

As I said before. Stalins policies ended up killing millions and millions of people across the Soviet union, including millions of Russians. "liquidating the Kulaks as a class." was his aim. ''Kulaks'' were basically all the peasant farmers in the Soviet Union.

You see, that's your opinion. And in the opinion of the Ukrainians who suffered under Moscow's rule through the 1920s and 1930s, the Germans were liberators. Now with the benefit of hindsight we can say Ukraine was simply trapped between two evil, inhuman empires but I can understand their desperation to be free of an evil regime like the Soviet Union.

And why is it being commemorated in 2016? Well, with the year that is in it surely Ireland can appreciate that it is sometimes for modern societies to acknowledge some ugly past without being seen to reject nationalist narratives. Certainly, I care less for Ukraines past brushes with nationalist socialism than Putin taking his lead on international relations from a certain Austrians playbook.

suicide_circus

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

No we don't. They have not been forthcoming with important information, such as the air traffic control tapes that they have hidden away.

Maybe you can link a RT video to support your argument?

esforum

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Some of the worst atrocities against Jews were committed in Ukraine by Ukrainian and Tatar nazis.

Not in any history book I have ever read but ok, I wasnt actually suggesting the Ukraine SS were nice people just suggesting a reasoning for them

Jimmy Garlic

Sand wrote: »

You see, that's your opinion.

It isn't just my opinion, it is a fact. The policy of "liquidating the Kulaks as a class" was not confined to Ukraine.

Jimmy Garlic

esforum wrote: »

Not in any history book I have ever read but ok, I wasnt actually suggesting the Ukraine SS were nice people just suggesting a reasoning for them

What kind of history books do you read. Were they written by Peter Andre? Maybe you should have a conversation with the descendants of Ukrainian Jews that survived. They will set you straight in short order.

BoJack Horseman

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

The policy of "liquidating the Kulaks as a class" was not confined to Ukraine.

Grand bunch of lads weren't they!

Can't imagine why anyone would want to rise against these boyos given the chance?

karma_

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Grand bunch of lads weren't they!

Can't imagine why anyone would want to rise against these boyos given the chance?

Context is not a defence.

riffmongous

esforum wrote: »

Not in any history book I have ever read but ok, I wasnt actually suggesting the Ukraine SS were nice people just suggesting a reasoning for them

Anti-semitism was rife in eastern europe, I was reading a book on the WW1 eastern front recently which describes many incidents of anti-semitism, but surprisingly, in light of what was to come, it says that germans were significantly better disposed to jews than hungarians or russian troops (particularly cossacks), for example many fled the city of Lemberg before it's capture by the russians and when the city was recaptured by the Austro-hungarians and Germans they were welcomed back with great enthusiasm by those jews that still remained

Sand

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

It isn't just my opinion, it is a fact. The policy of "liquidating the Kulaks as a class" was not confined to Ukraine.

No, its an opinion. That the Nazis targeted people other than the disabled for state murder does not mean that their targeting of the disabled is not state murder. 15 countries recognise the starvation of the Ukrainians as an act of genocide. 5 consider it a 'criminal act' by the Soviet Union. That's their opinion too.

What you don't get is you're betraying your sources by trying to claim that everyone was targeted. Under Soviet propaganda, everyone equally suffers - but especially the Russians.

Gatling

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

No we don't

We do

Jimmy Garlic

Gatling wrote: »

We do

Show me the proof. Not the opinions of those with an agenda, just proof. While you are at it you might explain why Ukraine is still hiding the air traffic control tapes.

BoJack Horseman

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Show me the proof. Not the opinions of those with an agenda, just proof.

Aah... the derivation of 'no true scotsman' gambit.

This forum has seen this thousands of times before.

- Show me proof!
- proof given
- No, I don't want that.... show me proof!
& repeat.

And of course, to the fervent, there is no proof that exists in this physical universe that would be sufficient anyway.

It's been nearly 2 years of this sh*te....

Gatling

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Ukraine is still hiding the air traffic control tapes.

No .

So russia has radar video showing 2 Ukrainian su24s attacking and shooting down MH17 and eye witnesses too .

But there hiding this evidence which exonerates them of any involvement why ..............

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Aah... the derivation of 'no true scotsman' gambit.

This forum has seen this thousands of times before.

- Show me proof!
- proof given
- No, I don't want that.... show me proof!
& repeat.

And of course, to the fervent, there is no proof that exists in this physical universe that would be sufficient anyway.

It's been nearly 2 years of this sh*te....

At least we can get out post count back