What breed of ram

Green farmer

Looking to get a new ram for the Autumn. Something of terminal breed but easily lambed. Ruling out texel and Suffolk. Don't mind the Charley, but would like abit more woolly. I also like quiet sheep. Any suggestions ?

stantheman1979

Hampshire down?? They are good for adding length to you're lambs.

Green farmer

stantheman1979 wrote: »

Hampshire down?? They are good for adding length to you're lambs.

I've heard some good things in here about them so I'm open minded. Had some hard lambing here, big headed lambs. Are they easily lambed ?

tom_k

I used a Vendeen ram here on main flock. Bought from a pedigree breeder and the first time we'd used a "full" terminal breed. Flushing worked well and 90% lambed in a 20 day period. I lamb most ewes outside and move to shed as required. We had almost no hard lambings at all and the lambs were actually unbelievable in how quickly they stand up and look to get sucking. They're all standing up well to the crappy weather we had/are having and are putting on weight really well so far with the oldest of them a little over 7 weeks now.

Username John

tom_k wrote: »

I used a Vendeen ram here on main flock. Bought from a pedigree breeder and the first time we'd used a "full" terminal breed. Flushing worked well and 90% lambed in a 20 day period. I lamb most ewes outside and move to shed as required. We had almost no hard lambings at all and the lambs were actually unbelievable in how quickly they stand up and look to get sucking. They're all standing up well to the crappy weather we had/are having and are putting on weight really well so far with the oldest of them a little over 7 weeks now.

Thinking of gettin a new ram meself this year... And would like to try the vendeen...

I dunno where you based Tom, but if aroun Cork can you let me know here you purchased.

Altho now that I think of it, am sure there would be a list breeders on their website? Will have a look around later...

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

Thinking of gettin a new ram meself this year... And would like to try the vendeen...

I dunno where you based Tom, but if aroun Cork can you let me know here you purchased.

Altho now that I think of it, am sure there would be a list breeders on their website? Will have a look around later...

both Conor and cheryl obrien kildorrery or
Ena and winston Nagle michelstown are probably the best breeders in the country, Nagles have a ram of ours, Cottage jasper, probably the best ram we ever bred, double five star.
also maureen kilgore buttevant lives near OBriens , new breeder, don't know much about them

kk.man

Am going to buy a ram this year too.
Was thinking of Belclare..what are their lambs like to lamb?

Green farmer

You going to try any new Rams this year rangler ? For the maternal side of your flock. My own llyen ram didn't produce anything great, but bought in llyen hoggets worked out well for me. Thinking here of sourcing all replacements externally and concentrating on butcher / factory lambs.

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

You going to try any new Rams this year rangler ? For the maternal side of your flock. My own llyen ram didn't produce anything great, but bought in llyen hoggets worked out well for me. Thinking here of sourcing all replacements externally and concentrating on butcher / factory lambs.

I think i'm going back to texel now if i can get growthy maternal types, ewes are too small here to put belclare on them.
Seem to be great hopes for the aberfield breed in England at the moment, they have a bit of everthing in them, lleyn, border leicester and cheviot in them to name but a few, like the lleyn they are not a big sheep. teagasc are supposed to be trying them this year,
According to the vet lab here, there's a lot more enzootic abortion storms over the last few years, just one of the risks of buying in.
Wouldn't be allowed to change from vendeen for factory breed

Siamsa Sessions

Could you AI them and try a few different breeds of ram? Might cost a few quid but it'd be good research

Green farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

if i can get growthy maternal types

What characteristics would you be looking for ? Got caught out here this year with too many hard lambings on singles to texel. Mixture of blocky lambs and ewes being texel x , with reduced pelvis size. noticeable difference in llyen x versus texel x hoggets that I lambed. Didn't have to tell llyens what to do, but needed to put work into texel x's. Having said that could have just been unlucky with my ram.

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

What characteristics would you be looking for ? Got caught out here this year with too many hard lambings on singles to texel. Mixture of blocky lambs and ewes being texel x , with reduced pelvis size. noticeable difference in llyen x versus texel x hoggets that I lambed. Didn't have to tell llyens what to do, but needed to put work into texel x's. Having said that could have just been unlucky with my ram.

I look for rams with a feminine head and growthy (very scientific :rolleyes:, but has worked) think i'll be looking at maternal stars this year too. won't feel until we'll be looking around for them now if you want good ones

orm0nd

Green farmer wrote: »

I've heard some good things in here about them so I'm open minded. Had some hard lambing here, big headed lambs. Are they easily lambed ?

using HD here for good few years with no problems, having said that it's mainly on the early flock which would be 3rd crop up wards ... so proven mature ewes

had 2 of ranglers vendeens here for a good few years, & was very pleased, hard enough to source them now, no breeders locally & going to the sales is waste of time, small entries & only a fraction turning up on the day

kk.man wrote: »

Am going to buy a ram this year too.
Was thinking of Belclare..what are their lambs like to lamb?

had a bunch of belclare ewe lambs this year & was very happy.. most lambed unassisted & immediately bonded to thier lambs ,

most had doubles 3 or 4 had triplets & 1 had 4

appears to have good milk too. lambs ddoing well & grass scarce

Green farmer

orm0nd wrote: »

using HD here

I had a lovely home bred Charley earmarked for breeding, but the cold storm killed him two weeks ago, so maybe the Hampshire might suit. You might pm the name of a decent breeder if you had one,
Thanks

AnFeirmeoir

rangler1 wrote: »

I think i'm going back to texel now if i can get growthy maternal types, ewes are too small here to put belclare on them.

I find the belclare lambs come out like bullets.. they look like big tall lambs but they are small boned wig sharp noses

Lano Lynn

rangler1 wrote: »

I look for rams with a feminine head and growthy (very scientific :rolleyes:, but has worked) think i'll be looking at maternal stars this year too. won't feel until we'll be looking around for them now if you want good ones

good luck with that.
I am sad to say I think the texel breed is doomed as most breeders are obsessed with breeding brutish heads at the expense of functional traits.
it was easier to scource a good growthy texel 20 years ago than today and the bloodlines have reduced to a scary level and considering the genetic faults within the breed a very very scary level.

unfortunatly the stars and particularly the maternal stars are so reliant on the accuracy and HONESTY of ALL the breeders :mad: I would like to see the raw data on the rate of reduction in lambing difficulty graph from sheep ireland.

kk.man

AnFeirmeoir wrote: »

I find the belclare lambs come out like bullets.. they look like big tall lambs but they are small boned wig sharp noses

That's great to know..I buy one later in the year

Green farmer

Lano Lynn wrote: »

unfortunatly the stars and particularly the maternal stars are so reliant on the accuracy and HONESTY of ALL the breeders :mad: .

We all know the flaws with that. My last 5
Star ram saw the factory 3 months after I bought him , with his hog mouth.

Lano Lynn

Green farmer wrote: »

We all know the flaws with that. My last 5
Star ram saw the factory 3 months after I bought him , with his hog mouth.

sorry green but you should have checked his mouth first,
not that the breeder should have been offering him for sale in the first place.
overshot is a far more common fault and more likely to carry through.

out of intrest did you use him and did it come through in his lambs?

Green farmer

Ya, won't make that mistake again. Was a society sale and he was from the winning pen on the day and had 5 stars maternal and terminal in top few percent of his breed. Was bought purely as a maternal ram, for his daughters. Only noticed it a week later in field when saw him grazing out of the side of his mouth, so felt sick when I looked at his mouth. His bottom jaw was deformed on one side. decided wasn't worth breeding into flock for generations to come. Replaced him with a different breed of ram, a llyen. The llyens mouth is perfect.
But shir look, you learn from these things and move on.

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

Ya, won't make that mistake again. Was a society sale and he was from the winning pen on the day and had 5 stars maternal and terminal in top few percent of his breed. Was bought purely as a maternal ram, for his daughters. Only noticed it a week later in field when saw him grazing out of the side of his mouth, so felt sick when I looked at his mouth. His bottom jaw was deformed on one side. decided wasn't worth breeding into flock for generations to come. Replaced him with a different breed of ram, a llyen. The llyens mouth is perfect.

you should've went to the society before you slaughtered him....might've done something for you
Vendeen always had inspections at society sale

Lano Lynn

Green farmer wrote: »

Ya, won't make that mistake again. Was a society sale and he was from the winning pen on the day and had 5 stars maternal and terminal in top few percent of his breed. Was bought purely as a maternal ram, for his daughters. Only noticed it a week later in field when saw him grazing out of the side of his mouth, so felt sick when I looked at his mouth. His bottom jaw was deformed on one side. decided wasn't worth breeding into flock for generations to come. Replaced him with a different breed of ram, a llyen. The llyens mouth is perfect.

what is the point of officail society sales? I would have thought at a society sale he would have been inspected as correct:mad:....but then some guys seem to get away with all sorts of sh!t....you may have guessed but I have become quite disillusioned with breed society/top breeder crap

Green farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

you should've went to the society before you slaughtered him....might've done something for you
Vendeen always had inspections at society sale

Wasn't the vendeen society rangler. Ya, was thinking about it, but heard afterwards the breeder wasn't the nicest person in the world to deal with when any issues arose. Also the society judges awarded his pen of 4 Rams first place, after pulling the Rams out and judging them., so wouldn't have much faith in the strength of that particular society. At best Maybe breeder accepting ram back and me having to drive 100 miles each way to breeder to pick another ram or something like that, and if that was the best of what he deemed to bring to sale, what was the rest of his stock like ?
So , I was sore about it for a while afterwards, but accepted my loss and moved on.

sea12

Green you should have fought fire with fire if the breeder was acting the bollix, most breeders rely on their good name. U should have went to breeder first and society if he wasn't playing ball.
Expensive mistake I'd say

Green farmer

Lano Lynn wrote: »

what is the point of officail society sales? I would have thought at a society sale he would have been inspected as correct:mad:....but then some guys seem to get away with all sorts of sh!t....you may have guessed but I have become quite disillusioned with breed society/top breeder crap

Sounds like you got some horror stories as well Lano. All I can tell you now is I'd concentrate on what type of person the breeder is before I'd look at their sheep. Breeder ain't decent, then Im gone. Still decent breeders out there, but Cowboys give them a bad name.

Green farmer

sea12 wrote: »

Green you should have fought fire with fire if the breeder was acting the bollix, most breeders rely on their good name. U should have went to breeder first and society if he wasn't playing ball.
Expensive mistake I'd say

Yep, this guy obviously didn't care in the first place, and society were flocked around him, looking up to him on the day. Sometimes you got to know when to pick your battles, and other times when your just wasting your energy and frustrating yourself.

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

Wasn't the vendeen society rangler. Ya, was thinking about it, but heard afterwards the breeder wasn't the nicest person in the world to deal with when any issues arose. Also the society judges awarded his pen of 4 Rams first place, after pulling the Rams out and judging them., so wouldn't have much faith in the strength of that particular society. At best Maybe breeder accepting ram back and me having to drive 100 miles each way to breeder to pick another ram or something like that, and if that was the best of what he deemed to bring to sale, what was the rest of his stock like ?
So , I was sore about it for a while afterwards, but accepted my loss and moved on.

Didn't think it was a vendeen although inspections miss things too, I advised a neighbour to throw up a charolais ram at the sheep ireland sale in tullamore in 2014. The inspections at that are very particular.
Breeder is looking at the rams everyday so they're chancing their arm bringing an incorrect one

orm0nd

I was at a Society show sale last year, & the judge was checking the rams pre judging, I saw him stall at 1 particular ram, checked his mouth a couple of times & checked the catalogue (I presume to see who owned) & then nodded the all clear.

I discreetly checked him after wards & he was completely wrong,

No society named above.

@Green, the man I bought the HD's from is retired, the nearest breeder now would be Alymer Power, askeaton

rangler1

orm0nd wrote: »

I was at a Society show sale last year, & the judge was checking the rams pre judging, I saw him stall at 1 particular ram, checked his mouth a couple of times & checked the catalogue (I presume to see who owned) & then nodded the all clear.

I discreetly checked him after wards & he was completely wrong,

No society named above.

@Green, the man I bought the HD's from is retired, the nearest breeder now would be Alymer Power, askeaton

It's part of the Pre sale inspection to ensure that the number on the sheep is the same as that on the catalogue so they'd have to refer to the catalogue for every sheep

Lano Lynn

Green farmer wrote: »

Sounds like you got some horror stories as well Lano. All I can tell you now is I'd concentrate on what type of person the breeder is before I'd look at their sheep. Breeder ain't decent, then Im gone. Still decent breeders out there, but Cowboys give them a bad name.

there are breeders out there that give cowboys a bad name:D
they don't seem to get they are selling genetics..and the sale of one ram impacts on the customers(victims) flock proportionally far more than theirs possibly for generations ,it is utterly irresponsable.

I have been fairly lucky over the years and as I don't have to depend on one ram tend to test mate on a small number of ewes and then use more extensively.
because I have several rams out it helps to compare individuals and breeds and it isnt the more expensive purebreds that perform best all the time!

also i tend to avoid the prize winners !

orm0nd

rangler1 wrote: »

It's part of the Pre sale inspection to ensure that the number on the sheep is the same as that on the catalogue so they'd have to refer to the catalogue for every sheep

there were 2 stewards doing that, this was the only ram he (judge) checked the catalogue. I'll won't comment further.

Green farmer

Lano Lynn wrote: »

it isnt the more expensive purebreds that perform best all the time!

also i tend to avoid the prize winners !

Funny enough , the most trouble free ram I have here is a 3/4 Charley, home bred, cost me nothing. He was the best ram lamb born that year so I kept him. 4 years later still banging out butchers lambs. Just need mild weather when the lambs hit the ground.

stantheman1979

We had a vendeen ram a few yrs back who produced good lambs so we bought 2 Vendeen ewe lambs a 2 yrs back from someone mentioned in this post!! 1st yr one went in lamb and had a little kitten of a lamb and hadnt enough milk for a cup of tea. We gave them a 2nd chance being ewe lambs this yr both had a tiny lamb each and NO milk despite getting extra soya in her feed. so they are going to the factory in a few week as there is no way i could look myself in the mirror if i sold them as breeding ewes. No way will a vendeen ewe blacken my door again!!!

Sheep breeder

Green farmer wrote: »

Wasn't the vendeen society rangler. Ya, was thinking about it, but heard afterwards the breeder wasn't the nicest person in the world to deal with when any issues arose. Also the society judges awarded his pen of 4 Rams first place, after pulling the Rams out and judging them., so wouldn't have much faith in the strength of that particular society. At best Maybe breeder accepting ram back and me having to drive 100 miles each way to breeder to pick another ram or something like that, and if that was the best of what he deemed to bring to sale, what was the rest of his stock like ?
So , I was sore about it for a while afterwards, but accepted my loss and moved on.

what breed of sheep, seen you have let the vendeen off the hook and take us out of the suspense.

Sheep breeder

orm0nd wrote: »

I was at a Society show sale last year, & the judge was checking the rams pre judging, I saw him stall at 1 particular ram, checked his mouth a couple of times & checked the catalogue (I presume to see who owned) & then nodded the all clear.

I discreetly checked him after wards & he was completely wrong,

No society named above.

@Green, the man I bought the HD's from is retired, the nearest breeder now would be Alymer Power, askeaton

strange that a judge would refer to a catalogie when judging, what breed was this sheep.

rangler1

stantheman1979 wrote: »

We had a vendeen ram a few yrs back who produced good lambs so we bought 2 Vendeen ewe lambs a 2 yrs back from someone mentioned in this post!! 1st yr one went in lamb and had a little kitten of a lamb and hadnt enough milk for a cup of tea. We gave them a 2nd chance being ewe lambs this yr both had a tiny lamb each and NO milk despite getting extra soya in her feed. so they are going to the factory in a few week as there is no way i could look myself in the mirror if i sold them as breeding ewes. No way will a vendeen ewe blacken my door again!!!

The first year we bred pedigree Vendeen we ended up with one lamb out of five ewes due to toxo
I always told customers not to use vendeens for breeding ewe lambs, vendeens are a terminal sire, not matenal, we use to have to feed our pedigree ewes very well to get them to milk, but it was the only time in the year that they would be well fed, they went over fat very easy
Farming pedigree sheep is in a different league to farming commercial sheep.

rangler1

Sheep breeder wrote: »

what breed of sheep, seen you have let the vendeen off the hook and take us out of the suspense.

Not many breed sales would be judging a pen of four, would suggest black at both ends to me, :rolleyes:

Green farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

Not many breed sales would be judging a pen of four, would suggest black at both ends to me, :rolleyes:

Different society rangler,. Not sure I can name and shame the breeder and society here. At this stage I've met a number of Ye lads in real life. Anyone Interested in knowing, I'll tell ye straight face to face.

Sheep breeder

Green farmer wrote: »

Different society rangler,. Not sure I can name and shame the breeder and society here. At this stage I've met a number of Ye lads in real life. Anyone Interested in knowing, I'll tell ye straight face to face.

a bit of a cop out there, dont want to name the breeder ok, why not the breed, rangler was quick to name the charollais in tullamore. :cool:

rangler1

Sheep breeder wrote: »

a bit of a cop out there, dont want to name the breeder ok, why not the breed, rangler was quick to name the charollais in tullamore. :cool:

Didn't mean to hang anyone, inspections weren't done by the societies that day, inspectors were guys that worked parttime for sheep ireland. ram was badly down on one of the back legs,

orm0nd

rangler1 wrote: »

Didn't mean to hang anyone, inspections weren't done by the societies that day, inspectors were guys that worked parttime for sheep ireland. ram was badly down on one of the back legs,

there was a foot of straw in the pens that day, very hard to see feet

Sheep breeder

rangler1 wrote: »

Didn't mean to hang anyone, inspections weren't done by the societies that day, inspectors were guys that worked parttime for sheep ireland. ram was badly down on one of the back legs,

well then it was a sheep ireland sale and not under society rules which is total different thing and shows how much sheep ireland doing to improve sheep.

rangler1

Sheep breeder wrote: »

well then it was a sheep ireland sale and not under society rules which is total different thing and shows how much sheep ireland doing to improve sheep.

That was my point, he wasn't thrown out in the inspection, i told my neighbour not to take him.
A lot of rams go down in the back pastels nowadays, something you really have to watch for at society sales because i think its due to overfeeding
I never saw it in the ewe lambs here and they'd be getting a lot less feeding

Green farmer

Sheep breeder wrote: »

a bit of a cop out there, dont want to name the breeder ok, why not the breed, rangler was quick to name the charollais in tullamore. :cool:

Your asking me to name the society, but look at how fast you were out of the traps to attack rangler over a mere observation, which appears to sum up what happens when you criticise any society. To put your mind at ease it wasn't the Charley's either as I'm guessing you could be from there. But don't expect me to keep ruling out societies until we have a winner. As I've said a number of times here, it happened, It took me a long time to move on . Now I have . There are decent breeders out there, but not every breeder appears to be decent and they can work in the opposite direction to everybody else and in at least one society I witnessed them having more influence then they should be have allowed.

ganmo

rangler1 wrote: »

Didn't think it was a vendeen although inspections miss things too, I advised a neighbour to throw up a charolais ram at the sheep ireland sale in tullamore in 2014. The inspections at that are very particular.
Breeder is looking at the rams everyday so they're chancing their arm bringing an incorrect one

I remember seeing the charolais rams being judged at the tullamore show one year and there was one who's gob was awful! don't know why anyone would bring t out as an example of the breed is nut.

We had trouble this year with turned in eyelids so I'll be changing the lads

Sheep breeder

Green farmer wrote: »

Your asking me to name the society, but look at how fast you were out of the traps to attack rangler over a mere observation, which appears to sum up what happens when you criticise any society. To put your mind at ease it wasn't the Charley's either as I'm guessing you could be from there. But don't expect me to keep ruling out societies until we have a winner. As I've said a number of times here, it happened, It took me a long time to move on . Now I have . There are decent breeders out there, but not every breeder appears to be decent and they can work in the opposite direction to everybody else and in at least one society I witnessed them having more influence then they should be have allowed.

my breeds would be white headed and hate seeing ideal talk, all breed societies have their bad eggs who try to rule the roost and do no good for a breed.
i have said for along number of years that sheep showing is more about post codes than sheep breed.

Green farmer

I suppose that's the point. The upshot of one breeders actions, sent me on my into the arms of one of the breeds competitors, and unlikely that I'll ever buy from that society sale again. If future only buy a ram out of a field after marking my mind up on its owner.