New EU roaming rates?

CiniO

As of 30th April, new maximum roaming surcharges apply all over EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/roaming-tariffs

However I can't find some info in relation to this.

Firstly, it looks great that surcharged are so low. They are what you add to your domestic rate.
Also they regulated maximum price

**From 30 April 2016 onwards, the roaming fee equal to domestic price + €0.05 may not exceed €0.19 for voice and €0.20 for data. The roaming fee equal to domestic price + €0.02 may not exceed €0.06 for SMS.

But now it looks the following:

F.e. If operator offers 1 minute for 10c domestic, then in roaming they can charge 15c + VAT.
Due to caps, if they offer 1 minute for 16c domestic, then in roaming they can only charge 19c + VAT. (so they can add only 3c instead of 5c).

All looks good so far.

But unfortunately, if they offer domestic 1 minute cost above the cap, they can still charge domestic cost. They can't charge surcharge then.

But looking at Irish mobile network pricelists, most of them offer 1 minute for around 25c - 30c.
So that's what they can charge in roaming now, as this is their domestic rate. No surcharge of 5c+VAT with that as it's above the cap, but still very expensive.
More expensive per minute in most cases, that it was in roaming until now, when they could only charge set amount (19c+VAT I think).

That explains the reason, why most Irish networks increased the price per minute over last few years to such high level.


Only thing which I'm not sure, if those regulation require operators, to respect package minutes or package texts or data while in roaming.
That way, you'd use your free minutes abroad the same as you use them at home, and only be surcharged 5c per minute while in roaming or 5c per MB.
Does anyone know if operators are required to provide ability to use packages of minutes/texts/data while abroad under those new regulations?

Curb Your Enthusiasm

would like to know this too

Curb Your Enthusiasm

After reading more into it, it appears that if you have a plan here, it applies in the EU too.

Also, everything is capped with regards to the extra charges. 19c maximum charge for voice, 6c maximum charge for texts, 20c maximum charge for data. This is certainly great news!

Yggr of Asgard

CiniO wrote: »

Only thing which I'm not sure, if those regulation require operators, to respect package minutes or package texts or data while in roaming.
That way, you'd use your free minutes abroad the same as you use them at home, and only be surcharged 5c per minute while in roaming or 5c per MB.
Does anyone know if operators are required to provide ability to use packages of minutes/texts/data while abroad under those new regulations?

As of 15 June 2017 you can use your domestic package allowance without any surcharge.

As of 30 April 2016 this is not the case, it's only setting a maximum surcharge on domestic rates (or outside bundle rates) and an overall maximum charge.

Some companies (Vodafone/Lyca/Eir/Meteor) have already implemented rates that allow you to use your minutes/text bundles EU wide but that is not required as of April.

Also note that the EU quotes prices are excluding 23% Irish VAT.

However this might lead to price increases with some vendors, which is why especially MVNO have problems publishing price list.

Example, IDMobile currently charges 0.02 € per MB as out of bundle charge, which means in theory they could only charge 0.08€ per MB when roaming in the EU which would make it the cheapest around. You can bet that they will raise that price to something like 0.18€ so that they can charge the maximum 0.246€ when EU roaming.

Charles Babbage

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

As of 30 April 2016 this is not the case, it's only setting a maximum surcharge on domestic rates (or outside bundle rates) and an overall maximum charge.

.

Where does it say that it is a surcharge out on of bundle rates only? Several companies are slithering around trying to claim this, but where did the EU say this?

Three told me in their forum a couple of weeks ago that they would be charging €1.05 per MB for data, which I suggested was illegal. Lo and behold they were telling porkies as there are much lower rates there now.

The sneakiest and most underhand trick of all was a Finnish company who charge you only the surcharge for data, as required, but who then throttle your data speed to a ridiculously low figure. Expect lots of these underhand tactics.

Yggr of Asgard

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Where does it say that it is a surcharge out on of bundle rates only? Several companies are slithering around trying to claim this, but where did the EU say this?

Nowhere, that is not what I said.

As of April providers can charge you domestic rates plus roaming adder subject to a maximum charge (however tesco and telefonica are disputing the part about the maximum charge right now).

If a provider as of April decides (and they don't need to) to allow you to use part of your bundle than they can charge you the roaming adder only as long as you are sticking to their fair usage definition. If you have exceeded your bundle (or fair usage) they can can charge you what the domestic out of bundle + roaming adder is subject to the maximum. (again tesco and telefonica are disputing this part).

I would refer to article 6e Section 1B of EU Roaming Regulation EU Directive 2015/2120/EC which outlines that there are maximum charges that can be applied.

Charles Babbage

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Nowhere, that is not what I said.

As of April providers can charge you domestic rates plus roaming adder subject to a maximum charge (however tesco and telefonica are disputing the part about the maximum charge right now).

If a provider as of April decides (and they don't need to) to allow you to use part of your bundle than they can charge you the roaming adder only as long as you are sticking to their fair usage definition. If you have exceeded your bundle (or fair usage) they can can charge you what the domestic out of bundle + roaming adder is subject to the maximum. (again tesco and telefonica are disputing this part).

I would refer to article 6e Section 1B of EU Roaming Regulation EU Directive 2015/2120/EC which outlines that there are maximum charges that can be applied.

You state that this time next year you will be able to use bundled calls and data while roaming. I am stating that you should now be able to use bundled calls and data while roaming, subject to the surcharge. I just wonder which part of the EU regulations supports your interpretation?

CiniO

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Nowhere, that is not what I said.

As of April providers can charge you domestic rates plus roaming adder subject to a maximum charge (however tesco and telefonica are disputing the part about the maximum charge right now).

I read that maximum charge applies to domestic rate + surcharge.
But in case when domestic rate is higher than maximum charge adviced by EU directive, then they can keep using domestic charge (but without surcharge then) even though it's higher than maximum EU directive charge.

I can't quote the text, as I got that info from Polish Communication authority website (equivalent of ComReg) so it's in Polish.
But if they say something like that, I believe it must be somewhere wisely hidden in EU directive.

Yggr of Asgard

Charles Babbage wrote: »

You state that this time next year you will be able to use bundled calls and data while roaming. I am stating that you should now be able to use bundled calls and data while roaming, subject to the surcharge. I just wonder which part of the EU regulations supports your interpretation?

Based on info that I got in October I would agree with your interpretation, in fact the EU published a nice graph that showed exactly that:

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/sites/digital-agenda/files/roaming_2016_timeline_final.jpg

However when I queried this in April with both the Commission and the EU Consumer Center I got told that this interpretation is not correct and only applicable as of June 2017 and that as of April 2016 there is no obligation to allow the usage of allowance.

I queried this again yesterday in light of the Tesco Stunt of raising prices for pay as you go customers and implementing roaming charges that are higher than the cap, so let's see what this month answer is going to be.

In fact there are several companies that are even disagreeing with the interpretation of the maximum rate (Tesco, Three, Teleconica) so I guess only once the local regulators are getting involved one will know the reality.

In addition according to some providers (Three for example) promotional allowances are also excluded from this which is why they now have extreme roaming charges for Pay As You go.

ComReg already has as usual declined to comment before all Provider Complaints Processes are exhausted, so I guess only once I get charged too much for roaming I can get a definite answer in a couple of weeks.

Yggr of Asgard

This is getting confusing and COMREG is silent on it.

I just got a mail back from the Commission and it they say, that

a.) even if the domestic rate is higher than the maximum set out of domestic + roaming adder they can only charge the maximum set out in the regulation which makes Tesco/Three behavior not compliant.

b.) that as Charles Babbage says, if there is existing in bundle allowance it must be used with the possibility to add the roaming adder charge.

I went back once again to clarify if promotional allowances are included as Three for example claims they are not which is why their PAYGO customers are not allowed to use them.

I also checked with the German regulator and they confirmed this, so if the Polish Regulator says otherwise, Tesco/Three are of the otherwise opinion than one can only hope that one day Comreg wakes up and starts doing something.

Charles Babbage

I think there is still some confusion on this. Hopefully this year will flush out all the scams and rip off tactics from the operators so that the regulations can be reworded as required for this time next year.

ED E

While we'd all love to have our promotional allowances included if they do this we'll see the AYCE data plans cancelled over night or roaming disabled.

Say I'm a Three IE customer, AYCE data. Then I head off to Greece for 3 months of the summer and jump on Vodafone Greece's network, them offering their own customers 1GB for €40/mo say. Previously Three IE pay Voda GE a significant tariff for my usage and that cost is passed on to me, but if I can't be charged for my AYCE data then I'm creating a disproportionate load on local cells and nobody is being paid for it.


Flat rate pricing isn't suitable across such a variety of economies but this new system appears on the face of it to be even more of a mess.

Bob24

ED E wrote: »

While we'd all love to have our promotional allowances included if they do this we'll see the AYCE data plans cancelled over night or roaming disabled.

Say I'm a Three IE customer, AYCE data. Then I head off to Greece for 3 months of the summer and jump on Vodafone Greece's network, them offering their own customers 1GB for €40/mo say. Previously Three IE pay Voda GE a significant tariff for my usage and that cost is passed on to me, but if I can't be charged for my AYCE data then I'm creating a disproportionate load on local cells and nobody is being paid for it.


Flat rate pricing isn't suitable across such a variety of economies but this new system appears on the face of it to be even more of a mess.

While I would also love to freely use my allowance when I travel, I tend to agree the EU rules are not very realistic in practise and might have negative side effects.

The suppression of generous data allowances at home because operators know that would commit them to delivering the same abroad is one.

Another one could be that if everyone start to use foreign SIMs and use any network the like at fully regulated prices (both wholesale and price charged to customers), if could disincentive good operators to invest in their networks which they know they will have to share with other companies at prices they can't control. I am not fully up to speed with the legislation, but is there anything preventing someone from running a crap network with poor coverage in a small and less developed European country (i.e. with very low operational cost), and through it get access to all the best performing networks across the continent at a regulated wholesale price which is the same regardless of the country, and without having themselves invested a cent in those counties? (if yes I see large operators in high cost countries being challenged be cheper simcards from abroad which are using their networks but don't pay the full cost for it and therefore are sold for cheaper prices: this could seriously alter the market and deter investment as well as local employment).

Charles Babbage

It seems likely that there will be a max usage of some sort.
Something like one month a year for longer travels and any amount of half days for people in border areas who are coming and going. The important thing is that even those who go over these limits should be charged modestly and predictably.

snaps

Is there any update with these new regulations? With summer holiday season approaching I've seen no mention of the EU roaming regulations on any mobile provider sites. I have 3 active sim cards currently (Vodafone Ireland, Orange Poland and t mobile Poland), but when im looking on the roaming sections of their web pages they are still showing extremely low data roaming allowances. Vodafone are showing "Red connect" for bill pay customers so they can use their allowance in the EU, but it all becomes a bit sketchy after that.

Data seems to be one of the most important services now, 200mb for 2.99e or in my case 300mb for 5 days 15zl, Is pretty poor.

Any links with updates appreciated, As I'm struggling to find any info.
I have read that providers have found loop holes so they can still surcharge for Eu roaming.

Also the days of buying foreign PAYG sims so you can avail of cheap data are slowly fading away. A lot of countries now require you to register your PAYG sim with ID. Its been introduced here in Poland recently but a little more relaxed compared to other Eastern European countries, where you can register with just your passport from any country.

Stevek101

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/SIM-Cards/PAYG-Trio-Data-Pack-Preloaded-3GB/B006H7BKXG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1489924297&sr=8-1&keywords=3gb+3+uk+3+months

Been using that myself now for 6 months. Data only but it works fine and its cheap.

Only Irish operator with new EU rates is 3. Details here http://www.three.ie/customer-agreement/

PAYG on 3 now offers 2GB of EU per €20 top up.

snaps

Some interesting information there. So three seems the best data deal for roaming. When I've got time I'll compare UK and Irish three rates.

Stevek101

snaps wrote: »

Some interesting information there. So three seems the best data deal for roaming. When I've got time I'll compare UK and Irish three rates.

3 UK have been offering Roam like Home rates since early last year. Tesco UK did for last summer but dropped it in late September.

There is some controversy over 3 Irelands move to have "all you can eat data" as an exclusively Ireland only part of the bundle. Then with 2GB being the core data allowance which is applicable in RoI and EU. ComReg is already investigating but I wouldn't expect them to do anything about it.

Meteor haven't released their plans yet but really sound like they're going to screw their PAYG customers over and offer no free EU roaming allowance with purchase of a bundle being required. Bill Pay will be getting between 1-5GB per month as part of their plan.

Vodafone said their offerings will be in the spirit of the new EU roaming rates... Whatever that means.

It could become a case with 3 UK remaining the best post June. In or around €10 euro for 3 months with 3GB data. Mind you you'd need a dual sim phone to make the most of this.

snaps

Here in Poland the mobile phone market is hugely competitive. Possibly the most competitive in Europe, where the consumer actually gets a good deal. I currently top up 25zl (5.5€) a month, get unlimited texts, upto 30gb data and 120min calls. I still have 15zl left to do what i want with.

But the huge hole or downfall is roaming. It doesn't matter who you are with, it's pretty P*ss poor, that's one reason my Vodafone payg SIM is still active, even after 3.5 years of moving away.

Bob24

snaps wrote: »

Here in Poland the mobile phone market is hugely competitive. Possibly the most competitive in Europe, where the consumer actually gets a good deal. I currently top up 25zl (5.5€) a month, get unlimited texts, upto 30gb data and 120min calls. I still have 15zl left to do what i want with.

But the huge hole or downfall is roaming. It doesn't matter who you are with, it's pretty P*ss poor, that's one reason my Vodafone payg SIM is still active, even after 3.5 years of moving away.

The regulated wholesale price for data roaming is around 7 euros per GB before tax. So with a plan offering 30gb for 5.5 euros, I only see 3 options as far as roaming is concerned:
- They successfully implement the type of loophole Three Ireland is trying to get away with and restrict roaming to a few hundred megs per month
- They significantly increase the price of the plan
- They disable roaming altogether on these plans

CiniO

Bob24 wrote: »

The regulated wholesale price for data roaming is around 7 euros per GB before tax. So with a plan offering 30gb for 5.5 euros, I only see 3 options as far as roaming is concerned:
- They successfully implement the type of loophole Three Ireland is trying to get away with and restrict roaming to a few hundred megs per month
- They significantly increase the price of the plan
- They disable roaming altogether on these plans

Would it not work in a way that they (operator) have to pay this €7 per gb to foreign operator for data used by their own customers in roaming, but they get paid €7 per gb of data used by foreign operator's customers using their network while roaming in Poland.
And this should even it out.


If not, all those EU free roaming regulations are just going to cause massive price hike for customers all over EU.


While I don't live in Poland I do have a contract with operator from there, which costs me less than €6 per month, and gives me unlimited call, unlimited texts and 5gb data in Poland as well as 120 minutes in roaming.
And it's those 120 minutes in roaming I'm after, as it's perfect for me to use in Ireland on international calls.

Bob24

CiniO wrote: »

Would it not work in a way that they (operator) have to pay this €7 per gb to foreign operator for data used by their own customers in roaming, but they get paid €7 per gb of data used by foreign operator's customers using their network while roaming in Poland.
And this should even it out.

That would be correct assuming roaming data flows are balanced. But I'd say it probably isn't the case, and even if they are that price difference would make them unbalanced (if you could get 30GB of EU roaming data with a 5 euros Polish sim card, in spite of the restrictions people would find ways to buy those cards from all over the world for when they go on holiday in Europe ).

ED E

It wont be even at all as Bob says.

There are thousands of poles making regular trips back home with Irish addresses and Polish social security numbers (nigh on mandatory now). They'll get whichever deal is cheaper and hammer their operator with bills.

You cant flatline pricing across states with 500% income deltas. Its just wont work.


@snaps only downside is credit expires pretty quickly over there, none of this 180 day retention. 30GB for 24PLN is a steal though

snaps

ED E wrote: »

@snaps only downside is credit expires pretty quickly over there, none of this 180 day retention. 30GB for 24PLN is a steal though

Yes that's true. It depends on how much you top up each time. I think currently my phone will only receive calls upto 6 days after my top up has expired, also i loose any carried over credit/data after those 6 days.

Also incase you misread my previous post, the allowances i was referring too (30gb data) is only used at home. I have a data tarrif, "free na kartę"

Luckily too the LTE networks are good here, I'm in the back arse of beyond (like mamm in conemarra) and get LTE. Most days averaging 50mb/s download and 22mb up.

I'm on a promotional rate, basically a long time customer so i get 30% extra for topping up each month. I get 10gb as standard, plus an extra 10gb then 30% extra. I get 5gb of data with my unlimited SMS bundle and 120 minutes.

I also have a 2nd payg SIM in a LTE modem which i use as back up house broadband. I can transfer credit from my phone account to my internet account each month.

This is great because I've had my main phone account for 3.5years, topping up 25zl each month, I've accumulated a lot of credit. So now i transfer that into my home broadband account and buy data at 1zl/gb

Quackster

Since the most recent iteration of the EU roaming regulation came in last May, I've been able to use my Vofafone PAYG domestic data allowances in other EEA countries without additional surcharge. So I've no doubt Vodafone will fully implement 'roam like at home' come June.

Of course, Vodafone is particularly well placed to do this with the most comprehensive coverage across the EEA.

Standalone operators stand to lose out most and this could participate a flurry of mergers/acquisitions.

ED E

30GB was in reference to the PAYG bonuses I get from OrangePL

snaps

Quackster wrote: »

Since the most recent iteration of the EU roaming regulation came in last May, I've been able to use my Vofafone PAYG domestic data allowances in other EEA countries without additional surcharge..

What roaming tariff are you on? Red roaming seems to charge 2.99 a day for 200mb? Or are you on Vodafone UK, using their eurotraveller addon?

I can only see red connect for contract customers that allow allowances to be used outside home in the Eu?

snaps

ED E wrote: »

@snaps only downside is credit expires pretty quickly over there, none of this 180 day retention. 30GB for 24PLN is a steal though

Luckily I have an automatic top up set up for every 30 days (1 day before top up expires). So hopefully I will never forget to top up.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Quackster

snaps wrote: »

What roaming tariff are you on? Red roaming seems to charge 2.99 a day for 200mb? Or are you on Vodafone UK, using their eurotraveller addon?

I can only see red connect for contract customers that allow allowances to be used outside home in the Eu?

I'm on standard PAYG roaming with Vodafone Ireland, not Red roaming. I'm supposed to be charged a surcharge on top of my domestic allowances but I have never been. I've checked with others I know on PAYG and they have had the same experience.

snaps

Quackster wrote: »

I'm on standard PAYG roaming with Vodafone Ireland, not Red roaming. I'm supposed to be charged a surcharge on top of my domestic allowances but I have never been. I've checked with others I know on PAYG and they have had the same experience.

I cannot see anything mentioned on their website.