Who has been the best Taoiseach we ever had?

Foxhound38

As the various parties and independents are still gormlessly sitting around seemingly refusing to provide us with a government, it strikes me as worth asking who the best Taoiseach was.

Use whatever criteria you like - vision, effectiveness, or even just being reasonably sure that your choice wasn't up to his neck in dodgy deals and corruption.

not yet

Jack Lynch

Your man, you know the one.. the chap with the whatyamaycallit, yeah him the good looking chap from that place.

maudgonner

Any criteria i like?

Best use of mustard trousers at a world leaders summit: Bertie.

neris

Jack Lynch

not yet wrote: »

Your man, you know the one.. the chap with the whatyamaycallit, yeah him the good looking chap from that place.

Good looking & Taoiseach do not go together

SEPT 23 1989

Jack Lynch

I hate FF but Lemass had a modern vision for the country

catbear

Best reference to wanting to commit suicide, Bertie.

not yet

Jack Lynch

I was going to say the gombeen, but that doesn't really narrow it down...

Captain Chaos

For charm and charisma alone, Bertie. Compared to the last two anyway, Bertie was a bit of a character.

catbear

Captain Chaos wrote: »

For charm and charisma alone, Bertie. Compared to the last two anyway, Bertie was a bit of a character.

Charming as an eel.

Chiorino

Jack Lynch

Lemass for dragging the country into the 20th century and away from Devs' "gaelic paradise".

The_Valeyard

Jack Lynch

Lemass.


Very interesting person. Went through a huge amount of tragedy and history in his day.

LiamoSail

Captain Chaos wrote: »

For charm and charisma alone, Bertie. Compared to the last two anyway, Bertie was a bit of a character.

Plenty of character alright. I particularly liked the one he played with Brian Dobson when he tearfully talked about the dig outs from friends, the wins on the horses and why he had no bank account.

It was under his watch that tax band was narrowed and public spending dramatically increased so as to make the country unsustainable in the event of a downturn. He gave developers tax breaks and facilitated, through policy decisions, the wreckless lending of the banks. That recession has Ahern's hoof marks all over it. Couple that with the findings of the Mahon tribunal into Planning corruption, and I believe Ahern demonstrated in abundance the two worst traits of Irish politicians; incompetence and corruption.

But **** that, he's a character eh?

Captain Chaos

LiamoSail wrote: »

Plenty of character alright. I particularly liked the one he played with Brian Dobson when he tearfully talked about the dig outs from friends, the wins on the horses and why he had no bank account.

It was under his watch that tax band was narrowed and public spending dramatically increased so as to make the country unsustainable in the event of a downturn. He gave developers tax breaks and facilitated, through policy decisions, the wreckless lending of the banks. That recession has Ahern's hoof marks all over it. Couple that with the findings of the Mahon tribunal into Planning corruption, and I believe Ahern demonstrated in abundance the two worst traits of Irish politicians; incompetence and corruption.

But **** that, he's a character eh?

Yeah, that's what I mean. Brush all that under the carpet and he's not the plank Enda or Brian are in front of a camera that's all I was saying.

Never implying he was a saint by any means.

LiamoSail

I voted for Enda Kenny.

I'm too young to remember any Taoiseagh post Haughey. Leaving aside those that weren't corrupt, that leaves only Bruton, Cowan and Kenny.

Bruton was only Taoiseach for a limited time, so perhaps unfairly, I ruled him out. Cowan was a disaster, and more so his time as Minister for Finance, has to shoulder huge responsibility for his role in the recession.

So it's Kenny by default. He's done a lot wrong, but the country is in a far better state than it was when his Government took over. It hasn't been a popular Government, but the Irish electorate have never been kind to politicans who made the hard choices, hence FF's popularity

LiamoSail

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Yeah, that's what I mean. Brush all that under the carpet and he's not the plank Enda or Brian are in front of a camera that's all I was saying.

Never implying he was a saint by any means.

That's great if you're looking for a pundit on RTE's football coverage or a character in Fair City. It's not much use as a Taoiseach

MonkeyTennis

Albert Reynolds

One of the ones that hasnt had personal dodgy financial dealings.. you know.. eh..

Jawgap

IMO.....

Lemass
Costello
Fitzgerald

in that order.

As a politician - looking at the entirety of career - I'd also suggest Haughey merits a mention, Yes, a corrupt and venial man, but also something of a capable politician when you examine his list of achievements while he held ministerial office.

catbear

LiamoSail wrote: »

It hasn't been a popular Government, but the Irish electorate have never been kind to politicans who made the hard choices, hence FF's popularity

I agree with you. Irish voters flock back to Fianna Fail if there's a whiff of a hand out and they'll punish prudence.
When I left in 2011 you couldn't find a Fianna Fail voter anywhere outside of a nursing home but since I came back last year with the improved economic outlook it's become all hate for common sense.

I overheard a couple of auld lads who could be Fianna Failers say that the credit unions should be allowed to plug the gap in lending left by Anglo Irlsh bank. Nothing learned. Nothing.

Mycroft H

Eamon de Valera

W.T Cosgrave.

A democrat and a statesman. A democrat in a time when democracy was on shakey ground in Europe.

Oversaw the foundation of the state and did his level best to bring the gun out of politics; an unarmed police force and stood the Army down and reduced their size.

And when the time came to to hand power over to FF and Dev, an untrustworthy bunch who carried guns to the first day of the new Dail, he stood aside because that's what you do when you're voted out. He was a democrat.

We would never be a nation who would be ruled with a gun in one hand and a ballot paper in the other.

Aongus Von Heisenberg

Jack Lynch

IMO...

Lemass - A talented moderniser who acheived economic and national development as well as attempting rapprochement with Northern Ireland.

De Valera - Take away the now fashionable ahistorical sniping and view him in the context of his times. He deserves immense credit for asserting and developing the country's actual independence as a Republic rather than a mere free state. Keeping us out of WW2 could not have been done without obtaining the treaty ports. Crushed militant republican opposition with methods that were sufficiently harsh to be effective yet remained proportionate to not undermine constitutional democracy.

Cosgrave - political stability since independence was an immense achievement that I believe very few other countries created in the 1920s have matched. Cosgrave deserves credit for securing a foundation of stable democracy, including peaceful handover of power, against both anti-treaty militants and his own right wing.

Neither FF nor FG would be on my ballot paper BTW, but historical views should not be distorted by the present state of either party.

Speedsie

LiamoSail wrote: »

I voted for Enda Kenny.

I'm too young to remember any Taoiseagh post Haughey.

Surely you mean pre-Haughey? Would be hard for you to remember the ones that came before him.

Mycroft H

Mycroft H wrote: »

W.T Cosgrave.

A democrat and a statesman. A democrat in a time when democracy was on shakey ground in Europe.

Responsible for the execution of far more Irish men than even the British managed in 1916. Also presided at a time when massacres like Ballyseedy took place, over a regime that engaged in policies like shooting people in the legs before tying explosives to them as happened Cahersiveen.

A fine democrat alright...

Foxhound38

Jack Lynch

Mycroft H wrote: »

W.T Cosgrave.

A democrat and a statesman. A democrat in a time when democracy was on shakey ground in Europe.

Oversaw the foundation of the state and did his level best to bring the gun out of politics; an unarmed police force and stood the Army down and reduced their size.

And when the time came to to hand power over to FF and Dev, an untrustworthy bunch who carried guns to the first day of the new Dail, he stood aside because that's what you do when you're voted out. He was a democrat.

We would never be a nation who would be ruled with a gun in one hand and a ballot paper in the other.

Very true - I voted for Lemass but WT Cosgrave has a lot of meritable qualitites

hmmm

Albert Reynolds was a businessman and brought much needed experience of the real world to his government. That government laid the foundation of the Celtic Tiger, and he took a massive risk to try and help Sinn Fein crawl out of the hole they had dug for themselves.

John Bruton I also thought was a good Taoiseach. He was treated unfairly because his mannerisms are a bit awkward in this media-driven age, but he was an honest intelligent sensible man in a sea of crooks.

Cathy.C

Garrett Fitzgerald

Charlie, because he fixed the roads.

Well, up as far as his son's driveway at least.

#truestory

LiamoSail

hmmm wrote: »

Albert Reynolds was a businessman and brought much needed experience of the real world to his government. That government laid the foundation of the Celtic Tiger, and he took a massive risk to try and help Sinn Fein crawl out of the hole they had dug for themselves.

John Bruton I also thought was a good Taoiseach. He was treated unfairly because his mannerisms are a bit awkward in this media-driven age, but he was an honest intelligent sensible man in a sea of crooks.

While Reynolds did do some good, I couldn't entertain the notion of a corrupt Taoiseach being mentioned in a discussion about our best. Honesty and integrity should be the minimum qualifying criteria IMO

Dyr

I'm sure Cosgrave was a great lad when he wasn't starving the poor to death. Probably the greatest tragedy of the civil war was we wound up with such a one sided government at the foundation of the state

Interesting that no ones mentioned Reynolds

Pinesky

Eamon de Valera

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Responsible for the execution of far more Irish men than even the British managed in 1916. Also presided at a time when massacres like Ballyseedy took place, over a regime that engaged in policies like shooting people in the legs before tying explosives to them as happened Cahersiveen.

A fine democrat alright...

Rather harsh to attribute the Kerry atrocities to him . They were undoubtedly very personal acts committed by the Free State Army .

ohnonotgmail

Garrett Fitzgerald

Captain Chaos wrote: »

For charm and charisma alone, Bertie. Compared to the last two anyway, Bertie was a bit of a character.

For charm and charisma it has to be Haughey surely?

Dyr

Pinesky wrote: »

Rather harsh to attribute the Kerry atrocities to him . They were undoubtedly very personal acts committed by the Free State Army .

Reprisals and extrajudicial killings were the official policy of Cosgraves government.

There was a reason why the anti treaty side started targeting free state ministers

Dyr

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

For charm and charisma it has to be Haughey surely?

Ahern was the master of charisma. Haughey only appealed to a certain type with his autocratic style.

ohnonotgmail

Garrett Fitzgerald

Bambi wrote: »

Ahern was the master of charisma. Haughey only appealed to a certain type with his autocratic style.

Haughey had class that Ahern could never even dream of.

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

Reprisals and extrajudicial killings were the official policy of Cosgraves government.

There was a reason why the anti treaty side started targeting free state ministers

We also now know that they knew of the actions and illegality at Government level but took no steps to deal with the parties involved. While obviously figures like Paddy Daly were more directly involved, Cosgrave and others knew well what he was at.

hmmm

LiamoSail wrote: »

While Reynolds did do some good, I couldn't entertain the notion of a corrupt Taoiseach being mentioned in a discussion about our best. Honesty and integrity should be the minimum qualifying criteria IMO

Eh? Albert Reynolds was not corrupt.

recylingbin

Garrett Fitzgerald

If Michael O'Leary was taoiseach...[insert bullsh*t here]

Richard Hillman

History will be very kind to Enda Kenny

LiamoSail

hmmm wrote: »

Eh? Albert Reynolds was not corrupt.

So why did he divert the Government jet to the Bahama's, to make an unscheduled visit, shortly after meeting property developer Owen O'Callaghan (who was found to have made corrupt payments) in a bedroom in the early hours of the morning following a FF fundraiser?

It must also be a coincidence that the IDA, under Reynolds direction, proved a thorn in the side for Tom Gilmartin in his attempts to develop Quarryvale. Suspiciously enough, this aided the above mentioned Owen O'Callaghan's attempt to take over Gilmartin's company.

recylingbin

Garrett Fitzgerald

Richard Hillman wrote: »

History will be very kind to Enda Kenny

It will if its written by Germans.

Mycroft H

Eamon de Valera

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Responsible for the execution of far more Irish men than even the British managed in 1916. Also presided at a time when massacres like Ballyseedy took place, over a regime that engaged in policies like shooting people in the legs before tying explosives to them as happened Cahersiveen.

A fine democrat alright...

All true. He wasn't perfect.

In the context of the time, no civil war leader came out without some sort of blood on their hands.

hmmm

LiamoSail wrote: »

So why did he divert the Government jet to the Bahama's, to make an unscheduled visit, shortly after meeting property developer Owen O'Callaghan (who was found to have made corrupt payments) in a bedroom in the early hours of the morning following a FF fundraiser?

It must also be a coincidence that the IDA, under Reynolds direction, proved a thorn in the side for Tom Gilmartin in his attempts to develop Quarryvale. Suspiciously enough, this aided the above mentioned Owen O'Callaghan's attempt to take over Gilmartin's company.

In other words, "you" think he was corrupt. Fair enough, I'll have to disagree.

piplip87

Garrett Fitzgerald

They mostly have had some great moments. Bertie and Charlie at their best (Not screwing the rest of us) Easily trumps any of the rest of them.

smash

Charlie Haughey.... Now there's a man who knew how to dress well!



:pac:

NoCrackHaving

People's opinion on Jack Lynch?

I know his handling of Northern Ireland and the Arms crisis can be criticised depending on your politics but he did introduce free secondary school education, EEC membership, redundancy payments and maternity benefits as well as free public transport for pensioners during his 1st term. However his 2nd term was a complete economic disaster so I guess much of his political leadership balanced itself out.

3 picked John Bruton.

John Bruton!

Man you'd wanna be dyed in the wool FG to think of him.

recylingbin

Garrett Fitzgerald

[Deleted User] wrote: »

3 picked John Bruton.

John Bruton!

Man you'd wanna be dyed in the wool FG to think of him.

There appears to be a disproportional amount of fine gaelers on this site, judging by the poll.

ohnonotgmail

Garrett Fitzgerald

Deleted User wrote: »

3 picked John Bruton.

John Bruton!

Man you'd wanna be dyed in the wool FG to think of him.

i dont think even they are that fond of him

12Phase

Albert Reynolds

Angela Merkel

diomed

Cowan's mistake was taking the hospital pass from Bertie.

LiamoSail

hmmm wrote: »

In other words, "you" think he was corrupt. Fair enough, I'll have to disagree.

It's hard to consider him otherwise given what came out in the Mahon Tribunal.

whisky_galore

Mycroft H wrote: »

And when the time came to to hand power over to FF and Dev, an untrustworthy bunch who carried guns to the first day of the new Dail, he stood aside because that's what you do when you're voted out. He was a democrat.

FF and Dev were voted in by the people, that's democracy as well.

Cosgrave didn't bring guns into the Dail, the Army used them quite effectively outside of it without any of the perpetrators being made accountable afterwards.

LiamoSail

diomed wrote: »

Cowan's mistake was taking the hospital pass from Bertie.

That and narrowing the tax base, increasing public spending to unsustainable levels, supporting tax breaks for property developers and stimulating the sector, facilitating the banks wreckless lending and failing to recognise that the banks were facing solvency rather than liquidity problems, coupled with his inability to recognise that his role was to act in the country's best interest, not his party's.

I do believe that Cowan inherited a poisoned chalice from Ahern, but having been Minister for Finance in the preceding years, he had a big role in the management of the economy