Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2016, Mod Warning in OP, 10/7

Fromvert

K-9 wrote: »

Yep, I didn't know much about it tbh.

As for Sakho, I don't know, I think the wider sporting public just gets immune to it, if it was another club I really don't think I'd be much different on it. A Leicester player maybe, alarm bells would start going off.

But we are so used to it with Athletics, cycling, weight lifting and then then the recent IAAF scandal, then put Fifa and Uefa on top.

As for Dion Fanning and Ken Early and I'm sure other hacks saying we should be more annoyed, what should we do Ken? March on the FA?

All we can hope is the drug busting agencies get as much funding and help they can. Sky, BT, Nike, McDonald's, 1% of deals or something like that goes to WADA etc.

I think the only chance something like that has of happening is if the sponsors forced it and why would they? Do they want to see the tournaments they sponsor have high level players banned during them? No chance. The FA/FIFA/UEFA etc do not want players being popped all over the place, players are barely tested and they'll like to keep it that way.
The player Unions would probably go tell them to kick rocks if they tried to force players to be tested every month or two anyway.

Sports organisations have little interest in catching anyone (bar the odd one to show that they're testing), NFL, NBA, UEFA, FIFA etc

It's high level sport, do we care that much about everyone being 'clean' that we'd accept watching a drop off in intensity, fitness levels etc.
I honestly don't care about it, it's entertainment for the masses delivered by the best athletes each sport has to offer. Enjoy it.

LuckyLloyd

Sakho is good at football. I'll look forward to welcoming him back into the fold post ban.

corwill

Fromvert wrote: »

It's high level sport, do we care that much about everyone being 'clean' that we'd accept watching a drop off in intensity, fitness levels etc.
I honestly don't care about it, it's entertainment for the masses delivered by the best athletes each sport has to offer. Enjoy it.

Once the integrity of a sport just as a competition goes by the wayside, it Rob's it of entertainment value, IMHO. It's why I couldn't give a toss about cycling and most athletics disciplines.

punk_one82

corwill wrote: »

Once the integrity of a sport just as a competition goes by the wayside, it Rob's it of entertainment value, IMHO. It's why I couldn't give a toss about cycling and most athletics disciplines.

Fair enough and for some individuals doping or whatever it is Sakho was doing will have a greater impact on their opinion of him/the sport than others. Personally I couldn't give a toss about athletics and cycling because they're some of the most boring sports I've ever seen, not because the sports are rife with PED's. If all the athletes were dropping tabs of acid before they competed there's more of a chance I'd watch it.

For me anyway, what Sakho has done doesn't take away from the entertainment at all. Football is football, regardless of if he was able to train a little harder and push out a few more reps or deadlift a heavier weight. He should be punished according to the rules and as long as he's not at it again then it should be forgotten about. We see cheating in football all the time. Does taking "fat burning" tabs do anything to harm the integrity of the sport more than diving in the box to win a penalty or trying to get an opponent sent off? If anything I'd say it does less to harm the sport than those 2. Just my 2 cents.

LuckyLloyd

corwill wrote: »

Once the integrity of a sport just as a competition goes by the wayside, it Rob's it of entertainment value, IMHO. It's why I couldn't give a toss about cycling and most athletics disciplines.

You're living in a dream world imo. Football just hasn't been exposed. That's the only difference.

8-10

punk_one82 wrote: »

If all the athletes were dropping tabs of acid before they competed there's more of a chance I'd watch it.

Like this? http://m.mentalfloss.com/article.php?id=64938

corwill

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You're living in a dream world imo. Football just hasn't been exposed. That's the only difference.

Why am I living in a dream world? To want sport in general and football in particular to be clean of drugs is not the same as pretending it is clean. Of course it goes on, I'm fairly sure it's riddled with it. I have no idea what's dream-like about wanting it stopped.

corwill

corwill wrote: »

Why am I living in a dream world? To want sport in general and football in particular to be clean of drugs is not the same as pretending it is clean. Of course it goes on, I'm fairly sure it's riddled with it. I have no idea what's dream-like about wanting it stopped.

World peace would be great too but both will never happen!

LuckyLloyd

corwill wrote: »

Why am I living in a dream world? To want sport in general and football in particular to be clean of drugs is not the same as pretending it is clean. Of course it goes on, I'm fairly sure it's riddled with it. I have no idea what's dream-like about wanting it stopped.

You said 'once the integrity of a sport goes it's entertainment goes'. This is football we're talking about!!!

I'm not disagreeing with your philosophy. I just think football has shattered it many times in many ways.

corwill

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You said 'once the integrity of a sport goes it's entertainment goes'. This is football we're talking about!!!

I'm not disagreeing with your philosophy. I just think football has shattered it many times in many ways.

Diving and the likes can be actually seen and caught by officials, and punished in real time. It doesn't happen half enough, but everyone is absolutely clear that it's against the rules. No-one would seriously propose legalising diving, because it would render the whole enterprise a grosteque farce.

If we throw in the towel with doping, the effect would be the same, even worse in many ways. The blowback would be enormous, within a generation doping would be practically compulsory at all levels of the game.

Just because fighting doping is difficult and is a fight that will likely never be fully "won" does not stop it being worthwhile.

corwill

RoboKlopp wrote: »

World peace would be great too but both will never happen!

That doesn't make perpetual war the alternative!

JB81

Looking forward to tonight. Team almost picks itself bar centre midfield:
I would pick:

Mig
Moreno
Lovren
Lucas ( think he will play Toure though )
Clyne
Allen ( Think he will play Lucas here )
Milner
Lallana
Coutinho
Firmino
Sturridge

good team performance needed and I think we will come away with a 1-1 result and set up for a big night next week!!

punk_one82

corwill wrote: »

Diving and the likes can be actually seen and caught by officials, and punished in real time. It doesn't happen half enough, but everyone is absolutely clear that it's against the rules. No-one would seriously propose legalising diving, because it would render the whole enterprise a grosteque farce.

If we throw in the towel with doping, the effect would be the same, even worse in many ways. The blowback would be enormous, within a generation doping would be practically compulsory at all levels of the game.

Just because fighting doping is difficult and is a fight that will likely never be fully "won" does not stop it being worthwhile.

Diving and getting a game winning penalty is surely a more serious form of cheating than physically bettering yourself? One has a very clear outcome on a game and one doesn't. What happens if you get caught diving? Yellow card. Get caught doping? Huge overreaction and calls for the players head.

Boom_Bap

Yarmalenko's (sp) agent posted a clip on Instagram of him (the agent) being at the club for negotiations.

Luckycharms_74

JB81 wrote: »

Looking forward to tonight. Team almost picks itself bar centre midfield:
I would pick:

Mig
Moreno
Lovren
Lucas ( think he will play Toure though )
Clyne
Allen ( Think he will play Lucas here )
Milner
Lallana
Coutinho
Firmino
Sturridge

good team performance needed and I think we will come away with a 1-1 result and set up for a big night next week!!

Think it will be very similar to your line up but I think Sturridge will be on the bench and bring him on for last 30 when the games is stretched and spaces open up.
I'm sure Klopp will be thinking, I need to get a full 90 from Sturridge in the home leg, therefore resting him this game.


Mig
Clyne Toure Lovren Moreno
Lucas
Allen Milner
Lallana Coutinho
Firmino

corwill

punk_one82 wrote: »

Diving and getting a game winning penalty is surely a more serious form of cheating than physically bettering yourself? One has a very clear outcome on a game and one doesn't. What happens if you get caught diving? Yellow card. Get caught doping? Huge overreaction and calls for the players head.

A dive of that sort turns one match. Unchecked doping completely undermines the entire sport as an actual contest, quite apart from the health issues. As for severity of the sanctions for doping, that's as much to do with making it a deterrent in the face of the difficulties of detection. An official in the right spot paying attention can catch a diver with his own two eyes. I'd be in favour of far harsher post-match sanctions to try and rein in diving, BTW.

54and56

punk_one82 wrote: »

Diving and getting a game winning penalty is surely a more serious form of cheating than physically bettering yourself? One has a very clear outcome on a game and one doesn't. What happens if you get caught diving? Yellow card. Get caught doping? Huge overreaction and calls for the players head.

What a complete load of cr@p. A single action like diving is nothing like continuous cheating via PED's. The correlation between a cheating dive resulting in a goal may be a lot more obvious than the effect on a game result of a player taking PED's but if Sakho gained 0.5% more speed or enhanced stamina as a result of taking PED's which in turn enabled him to make a goal saving block or several last minute goal saving blocks or tracking runs Vs attacking forwards the advantage gained from taking PED's could be significantly more than what is achieved from a single dive.

Agent Coulson

Looks like we after Mustafi now as well but I think we will be linked to lots of CB's over the next few months.

punk_one82

corwill wrote: »

A dive of that sort turns one match. Unchecked doping completely undermines the entire sport as an actual contest, quite apart from the health issues. As for severity of the sanctions for doping, that's as much to do with making it a deterrent in the face of the difficulties of detection. An official in the right spot paying attention can catch a diver with his own two eyes. I'd be in favour of far harsher post-match sanctions to try and rein in diving, BTW.

A dive turns one match yes, but it can be a lot more important than that. What if it's a dive in a final? A playoff? Relegation battle? How much of an advantage has Sakho gained on an individual level? It's probably immeasurable but he is definitely not superhuman as a result, so marginal benefit over a prolonged period.

I also agree more should be done to rein in diving, but I feel something like the Sakho situation seems to get seriously blown out of proportion in comparison to very obvious attempts at cheating we see on a weekly basis. Anyway I respect your opinion on it. Hoping it all gets cleared up soon.

punk_one82

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

What a complete load of cr@p. A single action like diving is nothing like continuous cheating via PED's. The correlation between a cheating dive resulting in a goal may be a lot more obvious than the effect on a game result of a player taking PED's but if Sakho gained 0.5% more speed or enhanced stamina as a result of taking PED's which in turn enabled him to make a goal saving block or several last minute goal saving blocks or tracking runs Vs attacking forwards the advantage gained from taking PED's could be significantly more than what is achieved from a single dive.

You call my post a load of crap yet make up a figure about potential speed gains and then make up some scenarios that have pretty much the same outcome as what I said? How many goal saving blocks has Sakho made this season? How many results has he directly influenced?

rob316

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Yarmalenko's (sp) agent posted a clip on Instagram of him (the agent) being at the club for negotiations.

Very interesting, there's a lad in work that absolutely raves about him every transfer window and cant understand why someone hasn't moved for him.

Boom_Bap

He has a pretty decent international scoring record as well, I think it's close to 1 goal every 2 games.....for a winger.
I've always rated him when I've seen him play, to be fair, that's not too often.

54and56

punk_one82 wrote: »

You call my post a load of crap yet make up a figure about potential speed gains and then make up some scenarios that have pretty much the same outcome as what I said?

If taking banned substances didn't improve his performance why would he risk taking them? I don't think anyone is going to suggest he hasn't gained an illegal improvement in performance the only question is how much but again it must be enough to have a positive impact on his game otherwise he wouldn't do it. I doubt you'd disagree with this point? Was it 0.1%, 0.5% or 10%? It doesn't really matter, it gives him an unfair advantage every single minute he's on the pitch and in every single tackle, block or interception he makes and he makes a lot. See https://www.whoscored.com/Players/29575 If taking PED's enabled him to make one more block per game, one more interception or one more tackle that would have a hugely positive impact on LFC's ability to defend.

punk_one82 wrote: »

How many goal saving blocks has Sakho made this season? How many results has he directly influenced?

He has played 34 games averaging 5.9 clearances per game, 0.9 blocks per game and 1.6 interceptions per game so unless this was a once off/single event (which he just happend to get caught doing - VERY unlikely) he has had a major impact on the result of 34 games. Try doing that with a dive

Agent Coulson

Sakho was stoned off his face on yokes no wonder he always looked so bloody awkward on the ball.

Francie Barrett

dogbert27 wrote: »

I'm with Rebel on this one. No one will really care in a few weeks time when the focus is on Leicester winning the premier league.

A guy with Hamilton got a one month ban for this. 1 month probably because he's a relative unknown. Toure, 6 months and a fine.

Sahko will get between 6 to 12 months, club will fine him. He'll donate it to a local charity. Come back clean and all will be forgiven.

I am expecting something similar.

Harry Palmr

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Yarmalenko's (sp) agent posted a clip on Instagram of him (the agent) being at the club for negotiations.

No subtly at all in Ukrainian football is there? That said he'd be a fine buy down the left flank.

As for Sakho, you'd really have to question if he has a future with the likes of Subotic, Vermealen being linked by moderately plausible sources.

MonkeyTennis

Reports coming from Belgium that Origi will be 3-4 weeks

corwill

Harry Palmr wrote: »

No subtly at all in Ukrainian football is there? That said he'd be a fine buy down the left flank.

As for Sakho, you'd really have to question if he has a future with the likes of Subotic, Vermealen being linked by moderately plausible sources.

The only competition Vermaelan will provide is for the physio's attention.

punk_one82

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

If taking banned substances didn't improve his performance why would he risk taking them? I don't think anyone is going to suggest he hasn't gained an illegal improvement in performance the only question is how much but again it must be enough to have a positive impact on his game otherwise he wouldn't do it. I doubt you'd disagree with this point? Was it 0.1%, 0.5% or 10%? It doesn't really matter, it gives him an unfair advantage every single minute he's on the pitch and in every single tackle, block or interception he makes and he makes a lot. See https://www.whoscored.com/Players/29575 If taking PED's enabled him to make one more block per game, one more interception or one more tackle that would have a hugely positive impact on LFC's ability to defend.



He has played 34 games averaging 5.9 clearances per game, 0.9 blocks per game and 1.6 interceptions per game so unless this was a once off/single event (which he just happend to get caught doing - VERY unlikely) he has had a major impact on the result of 34 games. Try doing that with a dive

I love how you used Sakhos stats to show how much of an impact he has on games. Compare them to Joleon Lescotts stats for the team who sit very bottom of the table. 30 games total, 5.8 clearances, 0.7 blocks, 2.6 interceptions per game. So yeah, the effect of whatever Sakho has been taking seems to be seriously overstated by you and many others.

How much of an impact it has quite clearly does matter. You seem to think that whatever he has taken has been a decisive factor in how he has played over the course of a season. I disagree. All defenders have those impacts on games, so what you've shown with regards to Sakho's stats are very average and are in no way indicative of him being a crucial factor in the result of games with regards to him having banned substances in his body. So what he has taken has had an immeasurable and quite clearly nominal impact on how he has performed. Compare that to a dive that earns a game winning penalty. The game winning penalty was earned from a blatant attempt at cheating in order to sway the result of a game of professional football. A measurable attempt at cheating. Try doing that with baseless stats

54and56

punk_one82 wrote: »

So what he has taken has had an immeasurable and quite clearly nominal impact on how he has performed.

Of course it has, that's why he has risked his future and professional integrity :rolleyes:

Your comparison with any other footballer's stats is irrelevant BTW. Sakho's performance wouldn't have been at the level it is without PED's otherwise he wouldn't be taking them and if he didn't perform to the level he has been some of his interceptions, last ditch tackles and goals may not have been made. Is it really that hard for you to join the dots?