So the army's hoping to recruit 1450 new soldiers... Waste of money?

CrabRevolution

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Not being pedantic but we don't have an army but a defence force!

We have both. Our Defence Forces consist of the Army, the Naval Service, and the Air Corp, as well as the Army Reserve and Naval Reserve.

You're not being pedantic, you're being wrong.

jmayo

Wolf Hanssen wrote: »

How many?

John Maughan was in army. for 19 years and reached rank of Captain.
He managed Mayo, Clare, Fermanagh.

Kevin McStay is in Army and manages Roscommon.

Tommy Carr was in army for 18 years reaching rank of captain.
I am not sure if he rejoined again.
He managed Dublin, Roscommon and Cavan.

Peter Fitzpatrick was in the army.
He managed Louth.

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Jim Gavin and Dermot Earley are the only 2 at county level I can think of, and Earley was in the 90s.

Even then, in the span of 25 years I'd say there has been several hundred (maybe even thousand) inter county GAA managers, so 2 being in the army means nothing.

Think harder.
GAA exists outside Dublin/Kildare.

I actually forgot about those two.

The ones I mentioned above managed in 90s, 2000s and one is still managing.
Maughan was linked to U21s last year.
Carr managed Westmeath minors upto 2014 and was linked to Tipp job in 2015.

joeysoap wrote: »

I give up .. :rolleyes:

good.

AllthingsCP

CrabRevolution wrote: »

We have both. Our Defence Forces consist of the Army, the Naval Service, and the Air Corp, as well as the Army Reserve and Naval Reserve.

You're not being pedantic, you're being wrong.

Well its referred to as Defense for a reason. Essential we have an Army but it is not for offensive operations and deals more with homeland defence and UN peace keeping and the odd peace enforcement rendering it a Defense Force rather then conventional Army. So he is right.

Ronald Wilson Reagan

Do ye really need an army, a full time civil defence would be lot more handy. Should concentrate on navy and air corp. to protect the quite substantial resource that is the sea.
The army should be reduced to Rangers with a national service reserves as without air cover a conventional army is a sitting duck.

conorhal

LeinsterDub wrote: »

People in the flood effect areas where certainly happy our 'useless' army was around to help

They might be even happier if the money got spent on those flood defences that never marterialised rather then having to call in the army after the fact.....

AllthingsCP

Ronald Wilson Reagan wrote: »

without air cover a conventional army is a sitting duck.

The Air Corps & Navy both do fantastic jobs with the equipment they have and it suits the roles... We do not need an Air Force to support the ground the AC do it well enough..

Conventional army we are not conventional defence force we are.

Barry Badrinath

jmayo wrote: »

John Maughan was in army. for 19 years and reached rank of Captain.
He managed Mayo, Clare, Fermanagh.

Kevin McStay is in Army and manages Roscommon.

Tommy Carr was in army for 18 years reaching rank of captain.
I am not sure if he rejoined again.
He managed Dublin, Roscommon and Cavan.

Peter Fitzpatrick was in the army.
He managed Louth.



Think harder.
GAA exists outside Dublin/Kildare.

I actually forgot about those two.

The ones I mentioned above managed in 90s, 2000s and one is still managing.
Maughan was linked to U21s last year.
Carr managed Westmeath minors upto 2014 and was linked to Tipp job in 2015.

good.

So, whats that, 6? 6 out of thousands!

I know 7 guys who left to work in Lidl last year, they are now training to be Regional Managers........do you also need to be good at Lidl to get a job in d'army?

Iwasfrozen

AllthingsCP wrote: »

The Air Corps & Navy both do fantastic jobs with the equipment they have and it suits the roles... We do not need an Air Force to support the ground the AC do it well enough..

Conventional army we are not conventional defence force we are.

Eh yes we do, it's 2016 no war can be won without air superiority.

Which leads me to the conclusion that if the Army's function is to protect the country from foreign aggression and they can't carry out this function they would be better off replaced.

Arsemageddon

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Which leads me to the conclusion that if the Army's function is to protect the country from foreign aggression and they can't carry out this function they would be better off replaced.

Since the foundation of the state the biggest threat to Ireland's security has been from subversive groups from the Republic and Northern Ireland.

Only a fool would believe that this threat has vanished forever.

KingBrian2

What are peoples reactions to a conscript army? People actually mobilising themselves if the country ever came under attack. Houses converted into fortresses and the DF instead of requisitioning civilian property would actually have a home guard that would fight an enemy anywhere in the countryside or the cities.

BoJack Horseman

KingBrian2 wrote: »

What are peoples reactions to a conscript army?

If we recall that before the Lisbon treaty referendum, we were told by the treaty's opponents that it will lead to conscription for the grand European army.

Any day now!.....

But no, I don't think there is much appetite for a national service model.
Contract soldiers is where things will remain.

BoJack Horseman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

if the Army's function is to protect the country from foreign aggression and they can't carry out this function they would be better off replaced.

I agree with this, though to add that enemies can be both foreign and domestic.

If the defence forces are not capable of national defence, then they should be disbanded....

I would support them being made capable of the task.
1% of GDP would be ample.

AllthingsCP

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I agree with this, though to add that enemies can be both foreign and domestic.

If the defence forces are not capable of national defence, then they should be disbanded....

I would support them being made capable of the task.
1% of GDP would be ample.

So you either want them gone or pump billions into making it something we do not need.

As it stands the Defense Forces are capable certainly could do with a tad bit more support, But we do not need a whole new Air fleet as it suits our home needs.

If invaded the Irish Defence Forces would not match up to the brits or most European nations manpower wise or in some areas equipment wise but 9,000 well trained well armed soldiers that received one of the best guerrilla warfare & military training would certainly make occupation here a nightmare. We also have a system in place that makes expanding the force manpower wise quite rapidly easy in war time.

People seem to forget the past also.

wakka12

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Sounds like a sensible use of money.

For defensive reason we should definitely have a bigger armed forces and more resources for them.

No point being completely helpless as a country if something were to happen.

It honestly is a waste of money. What nation or group is going to invade just Ireland ? If they 'invade' Ireland it will be along with Britain/EU/the west who are all plenty able to fend for themselves without our measly contributions of artillery/soldiers/expertise.But I hate getting into these nonsense hypothetical Irish war debates because thats all they are, nonsense. iceland have no army and theyre doing just great

wakka12

The only firepower we need is a smallish skilled group of individuals who could intervene in the unlikely event of a terrorist attack tbh

AllthingsCP

wakka12 wrote: »

It honestly is a waste of money. What nation or group is going to invade just Ireland ? If they 'invade' Ireland it will be along with Britain/EU/the west who are all plenty able to fend for themselves without our measly contributions of artillery/soldiers/expertise.But I hate getting into these nonsense hypothetical Irish war debates because thats all they are, nonsense. iceland have no army and theyre doing just great

Like us Iceland has a similar in size Militarize wing for per budget 45,529,700 USD 0.26% we at percent spend GDP 0.39%. Unlike us Iceland do not have 5+ semi active paramilitary forces that could start the campaigns of the 60's 70's & 80's in a heart beat. Iceland is also guaranteed by Norway & the likes were we only have air deals with the UK.

AllthingsCP

wakka12 wrote: »

The only firepower we need is a smallish skilled group of individuals who could intervene in the unlikely event of a terrorist attack tbh

We already have a small skilled force its called the Defence Forces. Unlikely events are becoming more likely lately.

TheQuietFella

CrabRevolution wrote: »

We have both. Our Defence Forces consist of the Army, the Naval Service, and the Air Corp, as well as the Army Reserve and Naval Reserve.

You're not being pedantic, you're being wrong.

Termed as PDF & RDF. Permanent Defence Force and Reserve Defence Force!

jmayo

Wolf Hanssen wrote: »

So, whats that, 6? 6 out of thousands!

I know 7 guys who left to work in Lidl last year, they are now training to be Regional Managers........do you also need to be good at Lidl to get a job in d'army?

How many inter county managers do you think there have been over the last 30 odd years ?
I can definitely say there haven't been thousands.

AllthingsCP wrote: »

So you either want them gone or pump billions into making it something we do not need.

As it stands the Defense Forces are capable certainly could do with a tad bit more support, But we do not need a whole new Air fleet as it suits our home needs.

If invaded the Irish Defence Forces would not match up to the brits or most European nations manpower wise or in some areas equipment wise but 9,000 well trained well armed soldiers that received one of the best guerrilla warfare & military training would certainly make occupation here a nightmare. We also have a system in place that makes expanding the force manpower wise quite rapidly easy in war time.

People seem to forget the past also.

I would say in almost all areas equipment wise.

We can't afford to match any of our western neighbours equipment wise either in modern technology or numbers.
The budget simply isn't there.

AllthingsCP

jmayo wrote: »

How many inter county managers do you think there have been over the last 30 odd years ?
I can definitely say there haven't been thousands.



I would say in almost all areas equipment wise.

We can't afford to match any of our western neighbours equipment wise either in modern technology or numbers.
The budget simply isn't there.

The Soldier on the ground is well armed and trained to very high standard and thats worth alot in the type of defense Ireland would mount to hinder a invading force or occupation force.

The Defence Forces are very well armed to handle any treat from dissents or terrorists forces.

Shurimgreat

Its a strange one alright.

A soldier starting off would probably earn in the lower 20-30k bracket. But after that, how much does it cost to train, feed and house them annually? Also the cost of kit, weapons, ammunition and so on. You are probably talking a cost of 100K per soldier annually. Times 1,450 is close to 150 million a year.

That would definitely fund the opening of some A&Es, more nurses or garda stations.

I have nothing against the army, but I think the government has struggled to get its priorities right lately.

esforum

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Its a strange one alright.

A soldier starting off would probably earn in the lower 20-30k bracket. But after that, how much does it cost to train, feed and house them annually? Also the cost of kit, weapons, ammunition and so on. You are probably talking a cost of 100K per soldier annually. Times 1,450 is close to 150 million a year.

That would definitely fund the opening of some A&Es, more nurses or garda stations.

I have nothing against the army, but I think the government has struggled to get its priorities right lately.

too be fair to them, Gardai and nurses require training and equipment as well

jmayo

AllthingsCP wrote: »

The Soldier on the ground is well armed and trained to very high standard and thats worth alot in the type of defense Ireland would mount to hinder a invading force or occupation force.

The Defence Forces are very well armed to handle any treat from dissents or terrorists forces.

In that case then why bother with any armoured vehicles such as Scorpion or bother with PC9s.

I think this country is ill equipped both militarily, police/emergency services to handle the new kind of terrorist threat Europe is facing.

Shurimgreat

The prospect of Ireland being attacked by another country in the short or medium term is zero.

The prospect of us being the target of an AQ or ISIS attack is next to zero, we simply aren't important enough on the grand scale of things.

The prospect of the IRA or other dissident groups posing a significant treat is also minimal.

I don't honestly think we need an army of more than 5000 personnel. Its not like there is a country out there waiting for us to reduce our army so they can attack. If they were going to attack they would already have done so.

When was the last time an Irish soldier fired a weapon as part of a live operation within Ireland, or outside it for that matter?

Shurimgreat

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Jim Gavin and Dermot Earley are the only 2 at county level I can think of, and Earley was in the 90s.

Even then, in the span of 25 years I'd say there has been several hundred (maybe even thousand) inter county GAA managers, so 2 being in the army means nothing.

Kevin McStay was in the army, also John Maughan I believe. Before that, many teams were trained by army personnel, more so pre 1970s.

bnt

In my opinion the army should put together a press gang, then come around the streets of Dublin, Cork etc. and sweep up all the homeless people. In the Army you have square meals, healthcare, a roof over your head, and a potential career. Whiile I'm not under any illusions that military forces in general are drink- and drug-free zones, it's surely better than the street ..?

esforum

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The prospect of Ireland being attacked by another country in the short or medium term is zero.

The prospect of us being the target of an AQ or ISIS attack is next to zero, we simply aren't important enough on the grand scale of things.

The prospect of the IRA or other dissident groups posing a significant treat is also minimal.

I don't honestly think we need an army of more than 5000 personnel. Its not like there is a country out there waiting for us to reduce our army so they can attack. If they were going to attack they would already have done so.

When was the last time an Irish soldier fired a weapon as part of a live operation within Ireland, or outside it for that matter?

where are you getting any of this? Just personal opinion and if so, based on what information?

Shurimgreat

esforum wrote: »

where are you getting any of this? Just personal opinion and if so, based on what information?

Which part?

you don't seriously think AQ or ISIS could be bothered attacking us?

I hate how many current or ex army personnel try to make out Ireland could be under imminent danger if we don't have a large army. Its simply nonsense.

we are an extremely low value target to most countries and groups. There is no propaganda value in attacking Ireland nor have we given them a serious reason to attack us.

Plus countries and terrorist groups have attacked far more powerful countries than Ireland in the recent past - in other words if they were going to attack they would already have done so.

jmayo

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The prospect of Ireland being attacked by another country in the short or medium term is zero.

The prospect of us being the target of an AQ or ISIS attack is next to zero, we simply aren't important enough on the grand scale of things.

The prospect of the IRA or other dissident groups posing a significant treat is also minimal.

You do realise most of the leading US multinationals have very sizable operations here ?
It doesn't have to be an operation against Irish people, but others visiting for instance.

Remember how US embassies were attacked in Africa and how US navy ships were attacked in foreign ports ?
With the major states locking down their countries, softer targets may be sought.

Of course now that you have told us there is absolutely no threat we can all sleep soundly in our beds.

AllthingsCP

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Which part?

you don't seriously think AQ or ISIS could be bothered attacking us?

I hate how many current or ex army personnel try to make out Ireland could be under imminent danger if we don't have a large army. Its simply nonsense.

.

Isis considers Ireland to be apart of the global coalition against them so a threat how ever low is still a threat.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/isis-release-chilling-new-video-6896875

''I hate how many current or ex army personnel try to make out Ireland could be under imminent danger if we don't have a large army. Its simply nonsense''

No one is asking for a larger force just maintain the current one we have.