Why is MMA in Ireland not regulated?

UsedToWait

Surprised not to see any discussion in this forum in light of the tragic death.

Minister for Sport Michael Ring has hit out at the lack of regulation of MMA in Ireland.
He apparently wrote to 17 MMA organisers in February 2014, saying they needed to comply with safety standards and register with Sport Ireland, but they seemingly have not done so.

It was also reported yesterday that underage fights have taken place with no medical personnel present.

Is there a willful disregard for safety in MMA in Ireland, presumably for money saving motives?

I know nothing about the sport by the way, but was surprised not to see a thread about the Minister's comments..
If I've missed it, please delete mods..

edit: can't post link as on mobile, but story is on rte news site, if someone can link to it..

Mellor

MMA isn't unregulated because people involved are shunning regulation. But rather because the sports council has shunned MMA.

UsedToWait wrote: »

Minister for Sport Michael Ring has hit out at the lack of regulation of MMA in Ireland.
He apparently wrote to 17 MMA organisers in February 2014, saying they needed to comply with safety standards and register with Sport Ireland, but they seemingly have not done so.

Michael Ring is firing a preemptive shot as he possibly recognizes that they've ****ed up.

Sport Ireland is the umbrella organisation that covers the Irish Sports Council. As of this very moment, the Irish Sports Council doesn't recognizance MMA as it's own sport. They don't give it any funding. It's not on their radar.

"Martial arts" is a recognaised category and goverened by IMAC, who want nothing to do with MMA.

Edit: Here is a direct quote from the IMAC website;

IMAC wrote:

IMAC registered Coaches are required NOT to engage in Mixed Martial Arts (MMA), Ultimate Fighting or other combat focused activities.

Is there a willful disregard for safety in MMA in Ireland, presumably for money saving motives?

No. In fact, all of the safety measures currently in place (the same standard as in regulated countries). Have been brought voluntarily by the promoters, clubs and fighters.

pablohoney87

The reason there is no discussion here today is because it has been discussed at length a number of times here.

It really boils down to MMA not being recognised as a sport by the Irish Sports Council.

The IAPA has released a statement below:

"The Irish Amateur Pankration Association (IAPA) is an associated body of the National Governing Body, the Irish Amateur Wrestling Association (IAWA).
It is made up of IAWA affiliated club members from the wrestling, grappling and martial arts community in the Republic of Ireland, it also has the support of a network of gyms, athletes and promoters.
The Irish Amateur Pankration Association has been established since 2014 and is affiliated to the Irish Amateur Wrestling Association for its lighter Amateur training and activities (Pankration), which form part of its progressional pathway for participants.
The IAPA is recognised by United World Wrestling, the World Governing Body for wrestling and grappling sports and they operate within the existing rules and regulations of the amateur sport of Pankration as laid down by the World Governing Body. They are also recognised by Sport Accord.
The Irish Amateur Pankration Association ensures that affiliated club coaches and members are signed up and comply with the IAWA Coaching Training Programme, Garda Vetting regulations and Anti-Doping procedures set down by the Irish Amateur Wrestling Association, Coaching Ireland and Sport Ireland
In consultation with the NGB, the Irish Amateur Pankration Association is also responsible for recommending policies and procedures that will support the development of Pankration in Ireland.
The committee reviews the associations plans to develop Pankration and provide input and feedback on the programs and activities provided for athlete’s development in national and international competition leading towards the European and World Championships.
In addition, the IAPA has been working with MMA event promoters on a voluntary consultation basis to
· Recommend safety standards at events,
· Develop sanctioning,
· Recommend regulatory structures
· To recommend procedures to improve safety for participants and officials in the sport.
However, the IAPA is not recognised as the governing body for professional MMA
The IAPA has no legal mandate or government funding and has no power to enforce its recommended guidelines in professional mixed martial arts"

UsedToWait

Mellor wrote: »

No. In fact, all of the safety measures currently in place (the same standard as in regulated countries). Have been brought voluntarily by the promoters, clubs and fighters.

If the reports about bouts taking place without medical support are correct, would this not suggest that the voluntary standards are lacking?

Is the Minister lying or misinformed when he says that the sport "is not regulated, has not sought regulation, and has not sought to be part of the Sport Ireland programme"?

Is there a website for the governing body for MMA in Ireland where i can read the code of practice and safety protocols for fights in this country?

pablohoney87

UsedToWait wrote: »

If the reports about bouts taking place without medical support are correct, would this not suggest that the voluntary standards are lacking?

Is the Minister lying or misinformed when he says that the sport "is not regulated, has not sought regulation, and has not sought to be part of the Sport Ireland programme"?

Is there a website for the governing body for MMA in Ireland where i can read the code of practice and safety protocols for fights in this country?

AFAIK they haved attempted to regulate it but had been turned away.

Read the statement from the IAPA I posted

UsedToWait

^ Pablo, you posted while i was writing my post above, but i think the aposite part of what you quoted is the end section.
So is there no governance in place for MMA in Ireland, and if not, why not?

pablohoney87

UsedToWait wrote: »

^ Pablo, you posted while i was writing my post above, but i think the aposite part of what you quoted is the end section.
So is there no governance in place for MMA in Ireland, and if not, why not?

There is not. There is a set of guidelines in place but there is no legal requirement for gyms to stick to this as it is not government endorsed.

It is not government endorsed as the government and sports council have refused to recognise it as a sport.

Because of this it has been down to the MMA community to "govern" themselves and the progress made since the foundation of the IAPA has been huge.

UsedToWait

pablohoney87 wrote: »

There is not. There is a set of guidelines in place but there is no legal requirement for gyms to stick to this as it is not government endorsed.

It is not government endorsed as the government and sports council have refused to recognise it as a sport.

Because of this it has been down to the MMA community to "govern" themselves and the progress made since the foundation of the IAPA has been huge.

That's laudable, but the IAPA, as described above is mainly focused on the "lighter" training aspects of the sport.

It seems, if, as has been reported, bouts are taking place without medical supervision, and given that the rules allow blows to the head while a man is prone, that there is an urgent need to properly codify and regulate the sport in Ireland.

Would you not agree?

And why has there not been any refuting of the minister's comments about the lack of engagement by any MMA bodies, if indeed their attempts have been rebuffed as you state?

Mellor

Feb 2016 - MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT, Tourism and Sport, Paschal Donohoe, has hailed the remarkable success of Irish mixed martial arts star Conor McGregor, insisting that MMA should now be recognised as a sport in Ireland.

“That’s a matter for the Sports Council themselves. They’re an independent body to government and they handle all matters in relation to governing and regulation — independent of the views of myself or my department,” said Paschal Donohoe in relation to the fact that the Irish Sports Council doesn’t currently recognise MMA"

The above sums it up. The ball has been the the Ministers, and the Sports Councils court for a long time.

Irish promoters and clubs have been bending over backwards self regulating for a long time. They met up and unified amateur rule sets a few years ago, and that's paying dividends now. They've set up the IAPA, and got it recognaised internationally with IMMAF (amateur MMA) and also the NGB for wrestling. But unless they get formally recognized by the sports council, they aren't an official regulator.

UsedToWait

"Mellor wrote:

"Martial arts" is a recognaised category and goverened by IMAC, who want nothing to do with MMA.
.

Excuse my ignorance, but this begs the question, why not?

pablohoney87

UsedToWait wrote: »

That's laudable, but the IAPA, as described above is mainly focused on the "lighter" training aspects of the sport.

It seems, if, as has been reported, bouts are taking place without medical supervision, and given that the rules allow blows to the head while a man is prone, that there is an urgent need to properly codify and regulate the sport in Ireland.

Would you not agree?

And why has there not been any refuting of the minister's comments about the lack of engagement by any MMA bodies, if indeed their attempts have been rebuffed as you state?

Medical supervision is in place at these events. In fact it was reported that the doctors were checking Jaoa in between rounds.

I havent heard the ministers exact comments so I cant comment. Also as I am not involved in the IAPA I cant speculate as to what their communication with the Minister is.

I have always been an advocate for regulation of the sport. However as I said this has not been possible thus far it seems.

pablohoney87

UsedToWait wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, but this begs the question, why not?

Ask them. We cant know the answer to that.

UsedToWait

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Medical supervision is in place at these events. In fact it was reported that the doctors were checking Jaoa in between rounds.

I was referring to a reported lack of medical support at amateur bouts though, particularly involving children..

pablohoney87

UsedToWait wrote: »

I was referring to a reported lack of medical support at amateur bouts though, particularly involving children..

Youre going to have to tell me what amateur MMA bouts are involving children in full contact MMA in that case before I can comment on them in that case.

I can tell you I have fought amateur in the past and received a pre fight medical and a post fight check for concussion and other issues after every fight.

UsedToWait

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Ask them. We cant know the answer to that.

Surely they gave a reason for refusal, and surely, as a fan of the sport, you have a theory?

Would it have anything to do with concerns about the safety of the sport?

Mellor

UsedToWait wrote: »

If the reports about bouts taking place without medical support are correct, would this not suggest that the voluntary standards are lacking?

What events was this? I'd have my doubts that it happened.

Regardless of the answer, No it wouldn't suggest the the voluntary standards are lacking. The voluntary standards have specific guidelines on medical staff events. If the above actually happened, it would suggest that somebody decided to ignore them. Even if the standards are perfect its no good if somebody can ignore them. Without being legally recognized, the IAPA have no real power to prevent that happening.

All they can do is shun those promotions. The IAPA is run by people who are involved with some of the main clubs (SBG, Team Ryano, Rush)

Is the Minister lying or misinformed when he says that the sport "is not regulated, has not sought regulation, and has not sought to be part of the Sport Ireland programme"?

He is correct when he says it is not regulated.
I can only assume that the rest is a lie, and not misinformed. As if the transport ministers was aware of the situation (see above), surely the sports
minister was.

Is there a website for the governing body for MMA in Ireland where i can read the code of practice and safety protocols for fights in this country?

http://www.immaf.org/iapa-to-hold-irish-amateur-team-tryouts-under-safe-mma-ireland/

http://www.immaf.org/iapa-sets-new-irish-mma-safety-regulations/

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1701646376780406&id=1501304700147909

Some info there

pablohoney87

UsedToWait wrote: »

Surely they gave a reason for refusal, and surely, as a fan of the sport, you have a theory?

Would it have anything to do with concerns about the safety of the sport?

My own theory is nothing more than Snobbery. The IMAC don't want to associate themselves with the whole "cage fitin" image.

If people have genuine concerns about the safety of the sport they would do genuine research into it.

Something very few people seem capable of these days.

UsedToWait

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Youre going to have to tell me what amateur MMA bouts are involving children in full contact MMA in that case before I can comment on them in that case.

I can tell you I have fought amateur in the past and received a pre fight medical and a post fight check for concussion and other issues after every fight.

Thanks - as i said, i know nothing about the sport, except the bits and pieces around Conor McGregor and the media reaction to the tragic death yesterday.

I'm glad to hear that children's fights are limited contact, but i think it would be prudent to have a doctor at ringside in case of accidents, if this is not done already..

califano

Theres usually a nurse or doctor in the audience anyway like they would call out for over the speaker in a ferry or an aeroplane.

pablohoney87

UsedToWait wrote: »

Thanks - as i said, i know nothing about the sport, except the bits and pieces around Conor McGregor and the media reaction to the tragic death yesterday.

I'm glad to hear that children's fights are limited contact, but i think it would be prudent to have a doctor at ringside in case of accidents, if this is not done already..

What I will say is the media "circus" that has surrounded Conor over the past year and the tragedy of the weekend is not the best place to get the majority of your info from.

Sort of like listening to Donald Trump and forming your opinion of American Foreign policy.

UsedToWait

pablohoney87 wrote: »

My own theory is nothing more than Snobbery. The IMAC don't want to associate themselves with the whole "cage fitin" image.

If people have genuine concerns about the safety of the sport they would do genuine research into it.

Something very few people seem capable of these days.

.

[Thanks for the links above, Mellor, I'll read then now.]

Pablo, as i said, i have no interest in the sport apart from as a news story, and the only reason i started the thread was due to surprise at the fact that the Minister's comments were not being discussed here..

I know you said the matter has been discussed at length here before, but clearly, due to this death, and the media and political reaction, there is now an existential threat to the sport you love - i thought this would have made it worthy of a thread...

I'll take my leave now, to read Mellor's links.
Thanks to those who engaged in discussion, though.

boxer.fan

There is very poor regulation in Ireland for all contact / combat sports. The Irish Sports Council use the Irish Martial Arts Commission as the governing body for all martial arts in Ireland.
If the IMAC do not recognize your particular martial art, or refuse their members permission to take part in that particular martial art, then they cannot be recognised by the Irish Sports Council.

The only option left for martial arts organisations is self regulation, which is happening and is quite successful.

The problems arise where a promoter holds an event without implementing the sanctions & regulations (ie insurance & medical cover) of the wider martial arts community or organisation.
There is absolutely no penalty or legal implication for running an unsanctioned event, so basically it is a free-for-all situation - any clown can be a promoter.

Some other countries run a tighter ship. For example, the USA have dedicated State Athletic Commissions that play a major role in each event or promotion, their commissioners or officers are in attendance and oversee every detail throughout.
The UK have the BBBoC who are a reasonably good organisation also.

As usual Ireland are in the dark ages with this type of thing.

Mellor

UsedToWait wrote: »

I was referring to a reported lack of medical support at amateur bouts though, particularly involving children..

Did he give any indication which event it was. Or any evidence.
As without any of they, its just baseless claims.

UsedToWait wrote: »

Surely they gave a reason for refusal, and surely, as a fan of the sport, you have a theory?

Would it have anything to do with concerns about the safety of the sport?

I honest would have no clue what their specif reason is. But, I'd be pretty sure it's not due to concerns over safety, for two reasons;

1. If they were genuinely concerned about the safety of the sport, wouldn't they seize the opportunity to be in control of the safety?
2. One of the sports under their umbrella is Muay Thai, which is just as "dangerous" as MMA

My own feelings is that some of the guys in charge of resent MMA as it exposes the failings and fantasy inherent in some other martial arts. I imagine its a bitter pill to swallow, when you've dedicated 25 years to something that's "discredited". but what do I know...

Mellor

boxer.fan wrote: »

The Irish Sports Council use the Irish Martial Arts Commission as the governing body for all martial arts in Ireland.
If the IMAC do not recognize your particular martial art, or refuse their members permission to take part in that particular martial art, then they cannot be recognised by the Irish Sports Council.

That's not correct.

From the IMAC website

The Executive Committee of IMAC is made up of two nominated representatives from each of the currently recognised Arts; Aikido, Ju-Jitsu, Karate, Kendo, Kickboxing, Kung-Fu, TaeKwon-Do, Ninjutsu, Sambo, Tai Chi and Muay Thai.

You'll notice there is mention of Judo, Boxing or Wrestling. I gather that means those martial arts not recognized or cover by IMAC either. Instead they are recognized by the Irish Sports Council directly.
In addition, Karate and and TaeKwon-Do, despite be recognized by IMAC, are also recognized directly by the Sports Council.

There's no reason why the MMA can't be recognized by the sports council directly if IMAC don't want it.

It's also worth mentioning, that despite the fact that the Irish Sports Council doesn't recognize MMA, and give no funding to MMA. The Irish Sports Council had no issue carrying out random drug testing on MMA fighters, signed to the UFC, on behalf of USADA. Testing that I imagine they were paid for.

Gumbi

I'd just like to chime in and note that I appreciate that you've engaged in fair and open dialogue which allowed a reasonable discussion, and did not bring in any prejudice that you might have had.

Gatling

This whole issue of kids fighting with no medical supervision ,
I believe John Kavanagh posted about a a story on Social media where 2 17 year old kick boxers fought without medial personal present at an event .
For some reason the story has been attached to mma for some reason or another.

DId anyone on here read the same ?

UsedToWait

Gatling wrote: »

This whole issue of kids fighting with no medical supervision ,
I believe John Kavanagh posted about a a story on Social media where 2 17 year old kick boxers fought without medial personal present at an event .
For some reason the story has been attached to mma for some reason or another.

DId anyone on here read the same ?

I only picked up on comments on Newstalk yesterday, but i do believe they were referring to a bout with two 17 year olds, so it may be that this was incorrectly conflated into the whole MMA backlash..

UsedToWait

Blackock MMA club member on News talk just now..

Edit: Neil Keegan is his name.
Giving a good account of himself..

pearsquasher

Good discussion - I was wondering about the regulations myself.

So if a public sporting event is self-regulated and not governed by the official sports bodies, how can it even go ahead? Surely insurance/licensing etc would need an official sanction by some external non-vested interest official body?

For the record, I've no problems with MMA competitions except for the ground-and-pound currently allowed and the hype-wagon before big fights - which is easily ignored. Bit of learning from the boxing camps would go a long way.

Gumbi

pearsquasher wrote: »

Good discussion - I was wondering about the regulations myself.

So if a public sporting event is self-regulated and not governed by the official sports bodies, how can it even go ahead? Surely insurance/licensing etc would need an official sanction by some external non-vested interest official body?

For the record, I've no problems with MMA competitions except for the ground-and-pound currently allowed and the hype-wagon before big fights - which is easily ignored. Bit of learning from the boxing camps would go a long way.

You're probably referring to the "finishing" ground and pound that probably looks like the worst aspect of MMA.

In reality, in many cases, it allows fights to be finished quickly when a fighter is hurt, and unlike like boxing there is no standing count, and no possibility and further punishment to a likely already concussed fighter.

Mellor

pearsquasher wrote: »

So if a public sporting event is self-regulated and not governed by the official sports bodies, how can it even go ahead? Surely insurance/licensing etc would need an official sanction by some external non-vested interest official body?

Insurance is a matter for an insurance company not a regulatory body.
"Licensing" is the official sanction of w governing body, it's not possible if they refuse to legislate that body.