Why Meat Is Madness

Red Cloud

John Gibbons Irish Times Review Section Saturday April 9.
Re hashing numerous influential scientific and think thank research for Beef and Dairy sectors that could cause chaos if they get traction in Brussels, Dublin, and world trade talks over next few years.

Zillah

By "chaos" do you mean a reduction in our carbon footprint and health effects from eating too much meat?

patsy_mccabe

Link for you;
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/food-and-drink/meat-is-madness-why-it-leads-to-global-warming-and-obesity-1.2602027

laoch na mona

I don't buy the meat = obesity thing. To much calories over a lifetime is what causes obesity, but the issues around beef as a polluter do need to be addressed like any other form of pollution .

patsy_mccabe

Sugar is the real silent killer, not meat.

yosemitesam1

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Link for you;
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/food-and-drink/meat-is-madness-why-it-leads-to-global-warming-and-obesity-1.2602027

That is a load of nonsense, there is nothing unhealthy about meat and maintaining a good demand for meat will be a big part in combatting climate change as nearly all the worlds big grasslands are underutilised/degraded and can only be maintained in good health by good grazing which needs investment

Buford T. Justice XIX

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Link for you;
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/food-and-drink/meat-is-madness-why-it-leads-to-global-warming-and-obesity-1.2602027

What a load of male bovine faeces!

They aren't even switched on enough to realise that only a small proportion of Irish land is capable of growing a commercial crop of anything other than grass and never will be.

I wish them well growing commercial crops of potatoes and lentils in Connemara and organic couscous on the bog of Allen:rolleyes:

gozunda

The jourmalist claims that "a glut of cheap processed meats" links meat production and obesity. This 'link' is then associated in the article with all Irish meat production.

Considering that Ireland is a primary producer of beef which is the main grass fed and results in a top class product with worldwide recognition.

Imo it is extremley poor and lazy journalism to lump all meat production with the old vegan chestnut "Meat is madness/murder" campaign slogan.

The Wiki entry on this journalist/activist ...

John Gibbons is an Irish environmental campaigner and the founder of the climatechange.ie website. He also co-founded the healthcare publishing and communications specialists MedMedia Group."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gibbons_(activist)

http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=4817

. It is of interest that the extreme end of the vegan movement sets out to end to all animal use and the meat industry especially.

I would say this article on "Meat is madness /murder" is a (poor) promotional piece of journalism and does not stand up to an independent view on meat production in Ireland and what the actual causes of obesity are.

freedominacup

I would love to see the calculations behind the assertion that we import more calories than we export. Is the figure enough calories for 1.4 million people for a day/an hour/20mins/a whole year or what? It could be correct tbd but if anyone can remember the post from that poster from ncd, the veg grower no one in this country has much chance in the veg business when UK farmers use Ireland as a dumping ground for the surpluses they must grow as a margin for error when planting for their UK supermarket contracts. We might have a greenhouse gas problem but outside of no input goat herding around the Mediterranean we produce the lowest emulsion beef and dairy certainly in the eu. I always question the methodology of these reports. I wonder how the emission levels for the chems and artificial fert used in veg production are calculated. The number of passes it takes to get a potato crop to harvest in this country has to be seen to be believed.

Speedwell

Yeah, meat is madness, and I didn't lower my blood sugar 25 percent and go off three medications by going on a low-carb diet. I was a vegan before my diabetes diagnosis (ironically for health reasons) and I didn't want to switch. I effectively don't even have full-fledged diabetes now, based on my monitor numbers. The key to obesity is how the body processes carbohydrates; since cells run on glucose, the body produces it from meats and fats too, so overeating meat can also raise blood sugar and cause obesity. If, like me, you tend to have impaired glucose metabolism anyway, that makes it look like meat is the cause of obesity when it's really a glucose issue.

Timmaay

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Sugar is the real silent killer, not meat.

The whole modern food industry is the real killer, 20/30years ago most your diet was made up of largely raw foods that you bought and cooked yourself, now what fraction are processed food, buy a "meat feast" pizza from a supermarket freezer and I can guarantee ya the quality of the meet is rubbish, the tomato sauce on the base probably has loads of sugar, as will any of the other sauces on it. And that's considered a reasonable supper for how many millions of teenage kids around the developed world? Dont get me started on any sort of lasagnas/pie or other dished. My general motto when shopping is stay the hell away from the sweet section, biscuits/snacks and any frozen processed foods. I'm lucky enough that food/nutrition is a huge area in athletics which Im heavily involved with, and it's a real eye opener contrasting my diet now to what sh1te I shovelled into myself during my 20s

uck51js9zml2yt

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

What a load of male bovine faeces!

They aren't even switched on enough to realise that only a small proportion of Irish land is capable of growing a commercial crop of anything other than grass and never will be.

I wish them well growing commercial crops of potatoes and lentils in Connemara and organic couscous on the bog of Allen:rolleyes:

Couscous is a difficult one to grow OK. Not too much or too little water, just enough sunshine and the right combination of fertilisers.

But let's not blame the real culprits of obesity, eating too much and not getting exercise.

Speedwell

Leilani Blue Llama wrote: »

Couscous is a difficult one to grow OK. Not too much or too little water, just enough sunshine and the right combination of fertilisers.

But let's not blame the real culprits of obesity, eating too much and not getting exercise.

I hear that if you use the right mix of water, protein, and vegetable matter, you can vastly increase your yield of couscous, but you have to eat it perfectly fresh then.

Zillah

I swapped all of my couscous fields to pasta last year, it's going very well. Jim down the way has a great tagliatelle crop coming on.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Zillah wrote: »

I swapped all of my couscous fields to pasta last year, it's going very well. Jim down the way has a great tagliatelle crop coming on.

I'm thinking of putting a few hectares of spagetti trees myself...

Nekarsulm

Considering we make most of the syrup used in producing Coca Cola for the whole of Europe, technically we probably are one of the main culprits in the obesity epidemic.....

EJ88

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I'm thinking of putting a few hectares of spagetti trees myself...

This weather keeps up I'm thinking of planting rice.

Dawggone

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Considering we make most of the syrup used in producing Coca Cola for the whole of Europe, technically we probably are one of the main culprits in the obesity epidemic.....

Transported it throughout the EU many moons ago Nek. Funny you needed the HazChem...

Nekarsulm

Phosphoric Acid innit. Lucky you didn't have to wear a suit. .......

uck51js9zml2yt

Dawggone wrote: »

Transported it throughout the EU many moons ago Nek. Funny you needed the HazChem...

And people say meat is bad for you!

El_Duderino 09

yosemitesam1 wrote:

That is a load of nonsense, there is nothing unhealthy about meat and maintaining a good demand for meat will be a big part in combatting climate change as nearly all the worlds big grasslands are underutilised/degraded and can only be maintained in good health by good grazing which needs investment

Meat can be part of a healthy diet, no problem there. The second part of the post is almost complete rubbish.

Why do we need to maintain grasslands? Why would grasslands be better for the environment than unused land and whats it got to do with climate change? If we didn't grow food for animals to eat we could eat the food ourselves and save the energy wasted on producing meat.

Milked out

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Sugar is the real silent killer, not meat.

Inactivity is the bigger one imo

Nekarsulm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Meat can be part of a healthy diet, no problem there. The second part of the post is almost complete rubbish.

Why do we need to maintain grasslands? Why would grasslands be better for the environment than unused land and whats it got to do with climate change? If we didn't grow food for animals to eat we could eat the food ourselves and save the energy wasted on producing meat.

But beef tastes gooooooood.
Grass, not so nice.........

djmc

I find it funny sometimes how so many people are so far removed from nature that they no longer know what they are.
There is a reason our eyes are not on the sides of our heads and we have a set of canine teeth in our mouths.
Wild animals know this just by the look of us.

El_Duderino 09

djmc wrote:

I find it funny sometimes how so many people are so far removed from nature that they no longer know what they are. There is a reason our eyes are not on the sides of our heads and we have a set of canine teeth in our mouths. Wild animals know this just by the look of us.

True but it doesn't touch the environmental argument around modern meat production.

djmc

The environment problem is driven by greed everyone wants the farmer's to expand and carry more stock and sell it at a lower price.
We can no longer make a living with 10 cows like our grandparents did
The supermarkets and manufacturers are making hundreds of millions in profit's while farmer's are forced to borrow more money and more land if they want to stay in business.
I do think Ireland can do it better than most countries though because of our ability to grow grass.

Nekarsulm

Don't worry. When oil runs out, and the current agri. production model fails due to the non existence of artificial fertilizer, and the end of both tractor power and all truck based transport systems, you will be reduced to eating grass in the Phoenix Park.
Probably 75% of the population will die from starvation and associated diseases.
Imagine Cormac McCarthy's "The Road" just without the nuclear winter.

gozunda

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Don't worry. When oil runs out, and the current agri. production model fails due to the non existence of artificial fertilizer, and the end of both tractor power and all truck based transport systems, you will be reduced to eating grass in the Phoenix Park.
Probably 75% of the population will die from starvation and associated diseases.
Imagine Cormac McCarthy's "The Road" just without the nuclear winter.

Tbh the deer in phoenix park are more likley to be on someone's shopping list in that scenario ...

But yeah most people living in urban areas don't have a great notion of where food comes from or how it is produced. Cue lots of cute lambs and fluffy bunnies.

Reality of producing and eating sufficient food is well beyond most. Most farming families would at least be able to produce for themselves. Howevet keeping hoards of ex vegan towns people from chewing the leg of your last milk cow could be a problem though ....

Buford T. Justice XIX

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Meat can be part of a healthy diet, no problem there. The second part of the post is almost complete rubbish.

Why do we need to maintain grasslands? Why would grasslands be better for the environment than unused land and whats it got to do with climate change? If we didn't grow food for animals to eat we could eat the food ourselves and save the energy wasted on producing meat.

Ecology 101,dude.

In huge swathes of the world, grassland is the tertiary ecosystem and is that way for a reason. In the 1930s in the USA, large areas of grassland used for tillage crops were blown away during years of drought conditions, coining the term 'Dust Bowl'. Here is a short documentary about the conditions.

Now, if that grassland isn't grazed, you have yourself a tinderbox waiting to explode into an inferno. The following is what happened when a fire rages through a town.

There are plenty more similar videos on YouTube, if you care to look.

And what is the best way of keeping the grassland under control from fires and erosion?

Why, grazing with ruminants!

Go figure, eh?

Now, in this Sainted Isle, we are lucky that we can grow just about any crop you could wish for, you name it and we can grow it.

Brilliant, eh?

Well, the downside is that, while we can grow the crops, it is very doubtful that we can actually harvest them as we are in a maritime climate which means lots of rainfall.

Perhaps you may have noticed it over the last 5 months?

And even if we can harvest them, it is again doubtful whether those crops will actually leave a return for the grower,which means that those crops are a complete and utter waste of time and effort on the growers part.

But it's not all bad news. No siree!

You see, we can grow grass. Lots and lots of it. And then some!

We can grow upwards of 16+tonnes of it a hectare, and possibly more. It is the one self sustaining crop we can grow that soaks up carbon and deposits in in the soils and keeps it there. Which, incidentally, means we can actually take greenhouse gasses out of the system to produce this crop.

I know, I know, I bet you're going to ask what the hell do we do with all this grass. Have a guess, go on. go on, go on, go on...

Coincidentally, this crop is a near perfect feed for those self same ruminants that you decry.

Oh, and if you want, you can look up just exactly where the biggest growth in demand for energy in the last decade is. It's not ruminants btw. I would hazard a guess at IT systems and the massive servers that have to provide us with instant gifs of sozzled halfwits falling off stage and some Kardashians ar$e which we have already seen in every conceivable angle possible but for some unknown reason still holds a peculiar fascination with a certain demographic.

Now, good day to you, sir.:)

_Brian

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Ecology 101,dude.

In huge swathes of the world, grassland is the tertiary ecosystem and is that way for a reason. In the 1930s in the USA, large areas of grassland used for tillage crops were blown away during years of drought conditions, coining the term 'Dust Bowl'. Here is a short documentary about the conditions.

Now, if that grassland isn't grazed, you have yourself a tinderbox waiting to explode into an inferno. The following is what happened when a fire rages through a town.

There are plenty more similar videos on YouTube, if you care to look.

And what is the best way of keeping the grassland under control from fires and erosion?

Why, grazing with ruminants!

Go figure, eh?

Now, in this Sainted Isle, we are lucky that we can grow just about any crop you could wish for, you name it and we can grow it.

Brilliant, eh?

Well, the downside is that, while we can grow the crops, it is very doubtful that we can actually harvest them as we are in a maritime climate which means lots of rainfall.

Perhaps you may have noticed it over the last 5 months?

And even if we can harvest them, it is again doubtful whether those crops will actually leave a return for the grower,which means that those crops are a complete and utter waste of time and effort on the growers part.

But it's not all bad news. No siree!

You see, we can grow grass. Lots and lots of it. And then some!

We can grow upwards of 16+tonnes of it a hectare, and possibly more. It is the one self sustaining crop we can grow that soaks up carbon and deposits in in the soils and keeps it there. Which, incidentally, means we can actually take greenhouse gasses out of the system to produce this crop.

I know, I know, I bet you're going to ask what the hell do we do with all this grass. Have a guess, go on. go on, go on, go on...

Coincidentally, this crop is a near perfect feed for those self same ruminants that you decry.

Oh, and if you want, you can look up just exactly where the biggest growth in demand for energy in the last decade is. It's not ruminants btw. I would hazard a guess at IT systems and the massive servers that have to provide us with instant gifs of sozzled halfwits falling off stage and some Kardashians ar$e which we have already seen in every conceivable angle possible but for some unknown reason still holds a peculiar fascination with a certain demographic.

Now, good day to you, sir.:)

Can't ever see a dust bowl scenario here in Cavan grazed or not, just saying like.

Nekarsulm

_Brian wrote: »

Can't ever see a dust bowl scenario here in Cavan grazed or not, just saying like.

Ha!, we are safe from dustbowls here, cause if you take ruminates out of the equation, the rushes, blackthorns, sallies and whins will keep our soil anchored and intact

gozunda

Taking a good look at this "meat is maddness" propaganda - what is of note is that Ireland as a island has had a succesful history of extensive livestock farming from mesolithic times onwards.

Whilst meat eating may have been seasonal the production of milk and dairy products was of utmost importance to the early irish. These foods formed a principle part of diet of the people of Ireland. The population not only survived but thrived on this diet up to at least early Christian times.

In later centuries a decline in livestock farming and a growth of a dependence on crops such as the potato and a much more restricted range of foodstuffs ultimately ended in disaster only in the decades after the famine.

Now we have these new 'visionaries' telling us that an agricultural system that has a long history of success and which is suited to irish soils, seasonal changes and provides a wide range of high quality produce for both local and international markets is now wrong and somehow unhealthy.

I wonder how many of the vegan brigade have ever managed field scale production of crops and vegetables in an Irish climate and survived on that produce through periods of the year when no crops or foodstuffs can be grown without massive inputs of fertilisers or the heating of covered production in polytunnels.

Again an important but missing component of this 'brave new world' proposed by this writer and others like him is how it is proposed to manage soil fertility where no fym or other organic materials would be available and ultimately the removal of grassland cover. Evidently artificial fertilisers would not be permitted due to their manufacture being dependant on carbon inputs. The vision of depleted soils brings to mind the dust bowl disaster of the 1930s as suggested by other posters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl

Rather than telling the rest of us what to do I would suggest that the new visionaries go and try their new system of food production and come back and let us know how they got on - if there any of them remaining that is ...

yosemitesam1

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Why do we need to maintain grasslands? Why would grasslands be better for the environment than unused land and whats it got to do with climate change? If we didn't grow food for animals to eat we could eat the food ourselves and save the energy wasted on producing meat.

The 5 billion or so hectares of grassland in the world need to be managed if they are to maximise the amount of carbon stored, how much carbon do you think can be stored over that sort of an area?? an awful lot I would say

_Brian

gozunda wrote: »

Taking a good look at this "meat is maddness" propaganda - what is of note is that Ireland as a island has had a succesful history of extensive livestock farming from mesolithic times onwards.

Whilst meat eating may have been seasonal the production of milk and dairy products was of utmost importance to the early irish. These foods formed a principle part of diet of the people of Ireland. The population not only survived but thrived on this diet up to at least early Christian times.

In later centuries a decline in livestock farming and a growth of a dependence on crops such as the potato and a much more restricted range of foodstuffs ultimately ended in disaster only in the decades after the famine.

Now we have these new 'visionaries' telling us that an agricultural system that has a long history of success and which is suited to irish soils, seasonal changes and provides a wide range of high quality produce for both local and international markets is now wrong and somehow unhealthy.

I wonder how many of the vegan brigade have ever managed field scale production of crops and vegetables in an Irish climate and survived on that produce through periods of the year when no crops or foodstuffs can be grown without massive inputs of fertilisers or the heating of covered production in polytunnels.

Again an important but missing component of this 'brave new world' proposed by this writer and others like him is how it is proposed to manage soil fertility where no fym or other organic materials would be available and ultimately the removal of grassland cover. Evidently artificial fertilisers would not be permitted due to their manufacture being dependant on carbon inputs. The vision of depleted soils brings to mind the dust bowl disaster of the 1930s as suggested by other posters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl

Rather than telling the rest of us what to do I would suggest that the new visionaries go and try their new system of food production and come back and let us know how they got on - if there any of them remaining that is ...

I do agree with your general point.
However I do disagree with the ever intensification of our process. There are more incidences of cattle being housed for longer and longer times to facilitate high intensity farming. Feeds stuf in some cases are moving away from grass based diets. Near me cattle are finished on cakes, bread and chocolate waste among their feed.

Commercial market pressures to scale up and produce more and more for lower margins is definitely affecting the production systems in a negative way. I disagree with dairy Cows being housed 24/7/365 and grass belting drawn into them.

This excessive intensification isn't at farmers own request but rather a reaction to market forces in order to remain profitable. The consumer is getting what they want cheaper and cheaper products - but at what cost to the products!

El_Duderino 09

Buford T. Justice V wrote:

In huge swathes of the world, grassland is the tertiary ecosystem and is that way for a reason. In the 1930s in the USA, large areas of grassland used for tillage crops were blown away during years of drought conditions, coining the term 'Dust Bowl'. Here is a short documentary about the conditions.

Sure. If you just ignore it, it could he eroded.

Couldn't it just be planted with the type of plants that will take care of themselves and left alone? I'm not talking about manicured fields that will be destroyed in a drought if not maintained.

If we cut down meat consumption we wouldn't need a lot of the land we use now as so much of it is farmed to feed animals which are then farmed for us. Very inefficient and intensive use of land.

gozunda

_Brian wrote: »

I do agree with your general point.
However I do disagree with the ever intensification of our process. There are more incidences of cattle being housed for longer and longer times to facilitate high intensity farming. Feeds stuf in some cases are moving away from grass based diets. Near me cattle are finished on cakes, bread and chocolate waste among their feed.

Commercial market pressures to scale up and produce more and more for lower margins is definitely affecting the production systems in a negative way. I disagree with dairy Cows being housed 24/7/365 and grass belting drawn into them.

This excessive intensification isn't at farmers own request but rather a reaction to market forces in order to remain profitable. The consumer is getting what they want cheaper and cheaper products - but at what cost to the products!

It remains that livestock farming is one of the most suited types of agriculture enterprises for Ireland due to high rainfall levels and grass growth. I did not say the system was perfect and I would suggest that like most areas of enterprise there are always presures to expand and intensify. Extensive livestock farming benefits the two issues of food quality and environmental considerations.

Imo using starch / sugar-based carbohydrates increase the risk of gut problems and animal health . Some producers 'may' feed other foodstuffs but these will never be a substitute for good feeding management. Asfaik this type of feed is not recommended.

El_Duderino 09

yosemitesam1 wrote:

The 5 billion or so hectares of grassland in the world need to be managed if they are to maximise the amount of carbon stored, how much carbon do you think can be stored over that sort of an area?? an awful lot I would say

It depends onto whether you want to factor in the carbon used to maintain that land. The way to store most carbon is to make it self sustaining and leave it alone. The real saving comes in the second order effects of using land to feed animals to feed humans.

That's only if you care about the argument that you put forward about storing carbon.

Harika

gozunda wrote: »

Taking a good look at this "meat is maddness" propaganda - what is of note is that Ireland as a island has had a succesful history of extensive livestock farming from mesolithic times onwards.
<<-snip->>

Yes and no, meat was always important, but more important were oats and barley, what makes sense if you look at the calorie intake and time meat takes to become the equivalent of calories in grain, fruits and so on. In these times, people also didn't have three times a day meat, but for special occasions. My grandparents told me that they also didn't have daily meat, but once on Sunday and that was it.
So those "propaganda" you mention basically points out to the madness we experience atm, having meat on a daily base, while to keep it cheap, animals are kept in a horrifying style, and if you are fine with that, they are pumped full of antibiotics to keep the diseases in control and hormones to grow them faster. Those antibiotics and hormones, are already having an effect on us humans.
If you now take back a step and look at the whole situation, you can easily see that we are consuming too much meat. What worries me is that even with all the food scandals recently and the available information, the idea of even reducing meat intake is resisted heavily.

laoch na mona

for whats it worth Irelands ability to continue producing enough grass for grazing and silage may not be guaranteed, longer and wetter winters are set to become the norm so fodder production won't be as guaranteed. Think how much trouble a late spring caused a few years ago, we could have that again next winter

Farming in Ireland is unique, the problem is the more intensive model which dominates world agriculture, it increases pollution, lowers the quality of meat, damages the ecosystem, and still doesn't make the farmer any better off.

People don't seem to remember that less then a hundred years ago most people on this Island couldn't afford to eat meat 3 times a day everyday, and when they did have meat it was usually salted bacon. Of course the is the issue of equality, you can't tell people meat will once again be a luxury that the poor/landless won't have access to and expect them to be okay with that.

Globally something has to change how this will be done is the interesting question

yosemitesam1

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It depends onto whether you want to factor in the carbon used to maintain that land. The way to store most carbon is to make it self sustaining and leave it alone.

The majority of grasslands are run very extensively and don't receive fertilizer or any inputs. The sort of high input system you see in Ireland/New Zealand is only carried out on a tiny fraction of the total grassland area.

gozunda

Harika wrote: »

Yes and no, meat was always important, but more important were oats and barley, what makes sense if you look at the calorie intake and time meat takes to become the equivalent of calories in grain, fruits and so on. In these times, people also didn't have three times a day meat, but for special occasions. My grandparents told me that they also didn't have daily meat, but once on Sunday and that was it.
So those "propaganda" you mention basically points out to the madness we experience atm, having meat on a daily base, while to keep it cheap, animals are kept in a horrifying style, and if you are fine with that, they are pumped full of antibiotics to keep the diseases in control and hormones to grow them faster. Those antibiotics and hormones, are already having an effect on us humans.
If you now take back a step and look at the whole situation, you can easily see that we are consuming too much meat. What worries me is that even with all the food scandals recently and the available information, the idea of even reducing meat intake is resisted heavily.

If you read again- carefully this time - you will see I did not say 'meat' I referred to 'livestock' farming and meat that was eaten seasonally.

I said

The production of milk and dairy products was of utmost importance to the early irish. These foods formed a principle part of diet of the people of Ireland. The population not only survived but thrived on this diet up to at least early Christian times.

Dairy products were one of the principle primary foods produced in Ireland in earlier times. With cattle been seasonal slaughtered as it was not possible to keep non breeding stock over winter months.

In later times the Irish population became dependant on one main vegetable crop - the potato and take a look what happened when those crops failed.

In my experience cattle reared in Ireland have the benefit of extensive rearing methods and are NOT kept in "horrifying style". Yes animals like humans are treated for disease however vetinary treatment is highly regulated.

Ireland has always had a succesful and indigenous livestock based Agriculture producing high quality food products. Farmers producing milk and meat products cannot be blamed for 'people eating too much meat' - that is a personal health issue that can only controlled by an individual themselves unless you are suggesting some kind of police state that monitors an individuals food intake. The same individuals could just as easily over feed on cream buns and fizzy drinks.

So yes poorly hashed together sensationalism like that article "meat is madness" are 'propaganda'. And no I don't agree we are eating "too much meat". Like all good foodstuffs- a balanced diet is key.

Note: I believe <<-snip->> terminology is normally reserved as a mod function. A more correct (and polite) way to indicate abbreviation of quoted text is to use ellipses like this ...

Harika

gozunda wrote: »

Like all good foodstuffs- a balanced diet is key.

I agree with that and was looking around if I find sources that claim that Irish people in general eat a healthy diet. And I only found articles that we are not and next to too much sugar and processed foods, meat is the next point that is consumed too much. I am very open to any source that claims that overall the meat consummation in Ireland is perfect for the overall health or even should be increased.

Buford T. Justice XIX

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sure. If you just ignore it, it could he eroded.

Couldn't it just be planted with the type of plants that will take care of themselves and left alone? I'm not talking about manicured fields that will be destroyed in a drought if not maintained.

If we cut down meat consumption we wouldn't need a lot of the land we use now as so much of it is farmed to feed animals which are then farmed for us. Very inefficient and intensive use of land.

You missed the whole point. It ALREADY HAS the type of plants that takes care of themselves. Grasses. Grass that is deep rooted to cater for the infrequent rainfall and resistant to burning that happens on occasion even in the best managed grassslands. That ecosystem depends on ruminants (buffalo replaced by cattle) to transfer nutrients and alternate grazing systems to allow certain grass and other species to grow and prosper.

Or is your point that we should destroy the grassland ecosystem to put in place some artificial ecosystem and destroy the ecology of the system already in place?

And what exactly is this supposed-better system that you are advocating that would cater for the climatic extremes that exists already?

Harika wrote: »

Yes and no, meat was always important, but more important were oats and barley, what makes sense if you look at the calorie intake and time meat takes to become the equivalent of calories in grain, fruits and so on. In these times, people also didn't have three times a day meat, but for special occasions. My grandparents told me that they also didn't have daily meat, but once on Sunday and that was it.
So those "propaganda" you mention basically points out to the madness we experience atm, having meat on a daily base, while to keep it cheap, animals are kept in a horrifying style, and if you are fine with that, they are pumped full of antibiotics to keep the diseases in control and hormones to grow them faster. Those antibiotics and hormones, are already having an effect on us humans.
If you now take back a step and look at the whole situation, you can easily see that we are consuming too much meat. What worries me is that even with all the food scandals recently and the available information, the idea of even reducing meat intake is resisted heavily.

I was reading an article lately saying that the cutting of raw meat into thin slices for human consumption vastly increased the release times for nutrients in the meat and that cooking of meat increased that further although much later in time than slicing did.

As regards meat consumption, the total intake of meat is dependent on the the lifestyle of the consumers. Hunter-gatherers would have a large and regular meat intake as they would be hunting on a near daily basis and preserving large portions of that meat for consumption later in the year when prey wouldn't be as common or easy to hunt. More sedentary lifestyles would have a range of animals kept for meat, from pigs fed on waste foods, chickens, sheep and cattle along with game and rabbits. When an animal was killed, some would be consumed, some would be preserved and some would be shared out in the community and later returned in kind when others would be killing. This was quite common in Ireland even as far as the 70s where I remember pigs and cattle being killed and shared out and receiving the same in return.

As far as resistance to meat intake being common, increasingly more and more research is coming out in support of meat consumption, especially in regard to weight loss. The whole 'animal fat is bad for you, m'kay' has been shown to be incorrect and based on flawed interpretation of results.

Harika

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

This was quite common in Ireland even as far as the 70s where I remember pigs and cattle being killed and shared out and receiving the same in return.

In the 70s how often did you have meat then?

Harika

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

You missed the whole point. It ALREADY HAS the type of plants that takes care of themselves. Grasses. Grass that is deep rooted to cater for the infrequent rainfall and resistant to burning that happens on occasion even in the best managed grassslands. That ecosystem depends on ruminants (buffalo replaced by cattle) to transfer nutrients and alternate grazing systems to allow certain grass and other species to grow and prosper.

Or is your point that we should destroy the grassland ecosystem to put in place some artificial ecosystem and destroy the ecology of the system already in place?

And what exactly is this supposed-better system that you are advocating that would cater for the climatic extremes that exists already?

I want to add here, that Irish animal farmers, and EU in general, need food imports to feed their animals. From grassland alone, we wouldn't be able to sustain the meat output that we are having atm. So where does this food come from? brazil/argentina, where the rain forest is burned down to plant GMO soja, that is exported to EU to feed our cattle, chickens and pigs. I am not against GMO but always laugh when people avoid GMO food but don't care if the burger was fed with GMOs.

djmc

Harika wrote: »

I want to add here, that Irish animal farmers, and EU in general, need food imports to feed their animals. From grassland alone, we wouldn't be able to sustain the meat output that we are having atm. So where does this food come from? brazil/argentina, where the rain forest is burned down to plant GMO soja, that is exported to EU to feed our cattle, chickens and pigs. I am not against GMO but always laugh when people avoid GMO food but don't care if the burger was fed with GMOs.

Can't disagree with that Some people are more particular about where they source their meat choosing organic or grass fed only meat which costs more to produce.
Most people just want cheap convenient meat and don't care if it's from down the road or bits of 20 different pieces of chicken from thiland blended up with chemicals covered in salt and sugar and sealed in breadcrumbs which can get final processing here and be passed of as Irish because it was wrapped here.

When I was younger we always killed some of our own animals for ourselves
Still have the big chest freezer but it's empty most of the time nowadays.
I try to source meat from local butcher when I can but am also guilty of buying handy food from the supermarkets pizzia packet ham processed sliced meat etc.

Farmers will produce whatever the market demand's which at the moment is the cheapest food possible

Zillah

djmc wrote: »

I find it funny sometimes how so many people are so far removed from nature that they no longer know what they are.
There is a reason our eyes are not on the sides of our heads and we have a set of canine teeth in our mouths.
Wild animals know this just by the look of us.

Uh huh. And you use those predator eyes to chase down deer in the woods, do you?

There's absolutely nothing natural about farming, and especially the intensity and conditions of modern farming. We've taken nature and subjected it to industrialisation - don't kid yourself that there is anything natural about it. Our natural state was to pick off a couple of stragglers in a vast and thriving ecosystem that barely noticed our presence. We've demolished most of that ecosystem and replaced it with industrialisation. Ireland used to be trees coast to coast.

We need farming to support our civilisation, but don't for a second try to claim there is anything natural about raising millions of animals in captivity for slaughter.

gozunda

Harika wrote: »

I want to add here, that Irish animal farmers, and EU in general, need food imports to feed their animals. From grassland alone, we wouldn't be able to sustain the meat output that we are having atm. So where does this food come from? brazil/argentina, where the rain forest is burned down to plant GMO soja, that is exported to EU to feed our cattle, chickens and pigs. I am not against GMO but always laugh when people avoid GMO food but don't care if the burger was fed with GMOs.

I think you have identified at least part of the problem there with one caveat - that Irish livestock are fed on a mainly grass fed diet supplemented by concentrates which include barley, wheat, maize and yes soya. Other feedstuffs include beat pulp, silage and hay. Much of the additional diet in terms of hay and silage are produced here as are some of the concentrates.

Why is soya been promoted? Soya production worldwide has been growing year on year and most of it crop is controlled by multinational petrol chemical interests.

As you pointed out a significant proportion of harvested soya comes from South America where virgin rain forest has been cleared and turned over to vast areas of monoculture systems devoted to soy bean production.

Do you what is really interesting about soya? In its raw state the soy bean contain substances which can lead to a shortage of amino acids in the body. It is in effect inedible and poisonous if eaten raw in sufficient quantities.

Couple this with the fact that soya production uses hexane to extract the plant protein

• "Hexane is used to process nearly all conventional soy protein ingredients and edible oils and is prohibited when processing organic foods."

• Soybeans are bathed in hexane as part of their processing by food manufacturers.

• "Hexane is a neurotoxic chemical that poses serious occupational hazards to workers, is an environmental air pollutant, and can contaminate food."

Source: http://www.naturalnews.com/026303_soy_protein_hexane.html#ixzz45hp0pwc9g

Much of the soybean produced is diverted into the human food chain often as a cheap filler. Next time you buy a pan loaf - check the ingredients. You might be on for a surprise.

OK soybeans are used for animal feed especially in countries where cattle don't benefit from an extensive grazing feed system. In Ireland thankfully our ability to grow grass means that such feeds do not form a significant part of that system.

But more importantly soya production has been promoted as a health food! A health food allegedly better than extensive grass fed beef. Go into your local 'health' food shop and look at the rows upon rows of 'soya milk' 'textured vegetable protein' soya burgers, soya mince etc etc. Who wins? I wouldn't touch the stuff with a barge pole.

If we follow John Fitz gibbons ideology we will all be eating soybean which is significantly more responsible for environmental destruction and the emission of green house gases through the destruction of natural carbon sinks and the subseqent growth of vast monocultures of petrochemical dependant crops.

merryberry

Is the problem the fact we have way too many animals or that our emission reduction target too high. I think it would b unfair to blame an agri sector for responding to a growing global demand for meat. It is efficient in terms of its ghg emmisions and because these emissions are biological, it is very difficult to reduce without reducing the herd. Better education on the demand side

Zillah

merryberry wrote: »

Is the problem the fact we have way too many animals or that our emission reduction target too high. I think it would b unfair to blame an agri sector for responding to a growing global demand for meat. It is efficient in terms of its ghg emmisions and because these emissions are biological, it is very difficult to reduce without reducing the herd. Better education on the demand side

Well that's the problem with capitalism: it's very hard to fight incentive. There are no easy answers to the problem, but it's also a little irresponsible to just shrug and say the market demands it. We are talking about the potential loss of trillions of dollars to the global economy over the next century because of climate change - ignoring the toll on human life, loss of habitat, and extinction of species - but also, in the long run, the question of life and human civilisation on this planet at all. This could be the biggest question facing industrialised society since the threat of nuclear winter.

Our great-great-grandchildren might be sitting in class discussing the reasons for why our generation deliberately perpetuated behaviours that we knew beyond a shadow of a doubt were doing terrible damage to the planet.

merryberry

Zillah wrote: »

Well that's the problem with capitalism: it's very hard to fight incentive. There are no easy answers to the problem, but it's also a little irresponsible to just shrug and say the market demands it. We are talking about the potential loss of trillions of dollars to the global economy over the next century because of climate change - ignoring the toll on human life, loss of habitat, and extinction of species - but also, in the long run, the question of life and human civilisation on this planet at all. This could be the biggest question facing industrialised society since the threat of nuclear winter.

Our great-great-grandchildren might be sitting in class discussing the reasons for why our generation deliberately perpetuated behaviours that we knew beyond a shadow of a doubt were doing terrible damage to the planet.

But do u agree with that it isn't just agriculture that is contributing to this global problem, that people need to eat and that farmers need to make a livelihood. I'm no expert on the topic but I don't see any solution to the problem of climate change