Why don't we have speed cameras everywhere?

AnthonyB

Why don't we have speed cameras everywhere, or universal monitoring of road traffic? Everyone who breaks the law on our roads should be held accountable, and the technology is there to do it cheaply and efficiently.

Road deaths are a national disgrace. It's a small country, and it's not difficult to make sure road safety is a priority, if we have the political will to do it. There are issues around equal rights - the Gardaí are cleaning up their act - and due process (the jury's still out), but in principle the objective still holds. There may be civil liberties concerns, but the good must outweigh the bad.

Furthermore, this is an increasingly important conversation as we start to see self-driving cards coming onto the roads. How will they be monitored? Will the manufacturers be required to relay all data to the Gardaí or some regulatory body in order that road traffic law is respected? Or will the government require all smart-car companies provide access to data after the fact when there's an issue, precipitating disputes like the Apple-FBI case in San Bernardino?

So what are the concerns? And why don't we actually do it, and roll out automated cameras everywhere?!

colm_mcm

Average speed cameras on motorways would be massively effective in terms of people not speeding.
I regularly speed though if I'm honest, so I suppose I'm glad they don't have them.
It would bring out the "shooting fish in a barrel" argument though.

biko

Probably a cost thing. I assume they prioritise the areas where the most people are and speeding is more likely to cause problems.

Atlantic Dawn

It would be better to have ANPR on every single exit and entry to each motorway in the country, then fine people for no tax, insurance, nct and catch the odd stolen car too and knowing where it is on the road.

the_syco

colm_mcm wrote: »

Average speed cameras on motorways would be massively effective in terms of people not speeding.

I doubt there are many deaths on the motorway when there isn't snow or ice.

They'd be more effective at causing less deaths parked in fields (when there is no space on the road) next to black spots on the roads, and on roads with 50kmph zones where there are houses.

But as said, they cost money, so there can only be so much.

the_barfly1

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It would be better to have ANPR on every single exit and entry to each motorway in the country, then fine people for no tax, insurance, nct and catch the odd stolen car too and knowing where it is on the road.

Wow. The NSA in the states would love you.

the_syco

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It would be better to have ANPR on every single exit and entry to each motorway in the country, then fine people for no tax, insurance, nct and catch the odd stolen car too and knowing where it is on the road.

Left hand can't talk to the right hand due to data protection laws, or some such sh|te.

Would be able to get lots of people without insurance, and inform the Gardai so that they could have their cars taken off them.

There was going to be something put in place to capture car regs at certain points and determine average speed, but this was stopped from going ahead for some reason.

Atlantic Dawn

the_syco wrote: »

Left hand can't talk to the right hand due to data protection laws, or some such sh|te.

Would be able to get lots of people without insurance, and inform the Gardai so that they could have their cars taken off them.

There was going to be something put in place to capture car regs at certain points and determine average speed, but this was stopped from going ahead for some reason.

Yes I recon 10-15% of cars could be taken off the road if this was introduced and policed properly, would be much better than any traffic control measure dreamt up.

Jayop

The majority of dangerous driving I see isn't speed related.

Sam Russell

ANPR at every entry and exit from motorways would quickly pay for itself. Apart from the tax, insurance, NCT, average speed, and stolen cars/false identity - there is rural crime.

For the M50, gantry ones would allow variable speed limits as well.

If they only reduced the road death toll by 10%, it would be worth it.

Of course, it would not reduce the death toll in Co. Donegal as they do not have motorways.

Del2005

Despite what the RSA says speed doesn't kill it's inappropriate speed which kills. Going 20k over the limit on a motorway is relatively safe, going 30k under the limit on some roads is extremely dangerous. The roads where people are crashing are not the roads where speed checking is done. What's better for road safety a camera at an accident black spot which never issues a fine or a camera on the N4 outside Liffey Valley catching hundreds.

Don't forget the elephant in the room. What percentage of our fatal crashes aren't accidental.

Jayop

Sam Russell wrote: »

ANPR at every entry and exit from motorways would quickly pay for itself. Apart from the tax, insurance, NCT, average speed, and stolen cars/false identity - there is rural crime.

For the M50, gantry ones would allow variable speed limits as well.

If they only reduced the road death toll by 10%, it would be worth it.

Of course, it would not reduce the death toll in Co. Donegal as they do not have motorways.

Do 10 percent of road deaths even happen on motorways?

CiniO

AnthonyB wrote: »

Why don't we have speed cameras everywhere, or universal monitoring of road traffic? Everyone who breaks the law on our roads should be held accountable, and the technology is there to do it cheaply and efficiently.

Road deaths are a national disgrace. It's a small country, and it's not difficult to make sure road safety is a priority, if we have the political will to do it. There are issues around equal rights - the Gardaí are cleaning up their act - and due process (the jury's still out), but in principle the objective still holds. There may be civil liberties concerns, but the good must outweigh the bad.

Furthermore, this is an increasingly important conversation as we start to see self-driving cards coming onto the roads. How will they be monitored? Will the manufacturers be required to relay all data to the Gardaí or some regulatory body in order that road traffic law is respected? Or will the government require all smart-car companies provide access to data after the fact when there's an issue, precipitating disputes like the Apple-FBI case in San Bernardino?

So what are the concerns? And why don't we actually do it, and roll out automated cameras everywhere?!

I see a huge flaw in your logic.

Is your thinking really like that if everyone obeyed speed limits, there would be no road deaths?
And the only reason for road deaths is people speeding.

I don't think it has any relevance.

I'd even say, if we introduced speed cameras everywhere and made it completely impossible for anyone to be speeding, amount of road death would probably go up. I would be happy to bet money on that.

Speed limis are just some general guidance, which very often have nothing to do with safe speed which everyone should be adhering to. Sometimes to be safe, you need to be below speed limit, other times, you might be double the speed limit and still be safe.

It's not as simple as you paint it.

questionmark?

Del2005 wrote: »

Don't forget the elephant in the room. What percentage of our fatal crashes aren't accidental.

The elephant in the room of single vehicle single occupant crashes I presume your referring to. Considering the average suicide rate over a few the last few years is circa 500 we would have to presume a few choose to end their suffering by way of a car accident.

Until the time that you have to register your car, in person, with identification, all this means nothing.

Law abiding citizens register cars, not so law abiding give false/ misleading names and/or addresses.
So the system you describe OP, will actually punish the more law abiding among us.

PCeeeee

AnthonyB wrote: »

Road deaths are a national disgrace.

Why do you think road deaths are a national disgrace?

If you put cameras on every road at all times, and put cameras on every entry and exit ramp on a motorway, it would never pay for itself. The only reason GoSafe catch anyone is because they get them off-guard (most of the time they're halfway behind a bush, or on a turn on the road).

If they were on every road, no one would speed. And if I knew my untaxed, uninsured car with no NCT would be flagged the minute I put it on a motorway, it'd never be put on a motorway.

You catch people at the moment because they take a chance, as the likelyhood of being caught is slim.

This morning I did about 4 hours of driving, from Drogheda to Carlow and back. I left Drogheda at 4am, hit Carlow briefly and returned almost immediately. I would guess I was above the limit for 99% of the journey. I'd also say I seen about a dozen cars on the way there, and the only time it was 'busy' on the way back was when I joined the M50 (and using the M50 at that hour of the day, on a sunday, when it's very quiet, really highlights the issues of middle lane drivers!).

Was I speeding? Yes.
Was it dangerous? No.


I really don't think 'speeding' is the big killer it's made out to be. I think it's just the easiest one to objectify and nail people for. You can't measure how much attention someone is paying from the side of the road and you can't flash people from a van and fine them for being half-asleep. (though in fairness, i very regularly see a motorbike cop on the M50 flying in and out of traffic looking in windows to check if people are using phones). It's a lot easier to stick a number on a sign and nail anyone who goes over it though.

(just to note, I'm not against speed limits or anything like that, but I just think some of them are a bit lower than they should be. Mostly the Motorway ones).

pablo128

AnthonyB wrote: »

Why don't we have speed cameras everywhere, or universal monitoring of road traffic? Everyone who breaks the law on our roads should be held accountable, and the technology is there to do it cheaply and efficiently.

Road deaths are a national disgrace. It's a small country, and it's not difficult to make sure road safety is a priority, if we have the political will to do it. There are issues around equal rights - the Gardaí are cleaning up their act - and due process (the jury's still out), but in principle the objective still holds. There may be civil liberties concerns, but the good must outweigh the bad.

Furthermore, this is an increasingly important conversation as we start to see self-driving cards coming onto the roads. How will they be monitored? Will the manufacturers be required to relay all data to the Gardaí or some regulatory body in order that road traffic law is respected? Or will the government require all smart-car companies provide access to data after the fact when there's an issue, precipitating disputes like the Apple-FBI case in San Bernardino?

So what are the concerns? And why don't we actually do it, and roll out automated cameras everywhere?!

Cameras wont catch drink drivers or dangerous drivers. We need more gardai out on the roads, not cameras.

CiniO

pablo128 wrote: »

Cameras wont catch drink drivers or dangerous drivers. We need more gardai out on the roads, not cameras.

Why?
You heard OP.
Our road deaths are a disgrace, so we need to fill all country with speed cameras, and this will completely sort out the problem of road deaths.

That's sad, but looks like really many people think that way. They read in the papers, that speed kills, and are certain that if we all obey speed limits, we will reduce deaths on road to zero.

AnthonyB

colm_mcm wrote: »

Average speed cameras on motorways would be massively effective in terms of people not speeding.
I regularly speed though if I'm honest, so I suppose I'm glad they don't have them.
It would bring out the "shooting fish in a barrel" argument though.

arguably very few people would speed if they were guaranteed to be caught, right?

biko wrote: »

Probably a cost thing. I assume they prioritise the areas where the most people are and speeding is more likely to cause problems.

Look at the automated tolling. Far cheaper. Could use the same Automated Number Plate Recognition technology for speeding, traffic light enforcement and other traffic offences.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It would be better to have ANPR on every single exit and entry to each motorway in the country, then fine people for no tax, insurance, nct and catch the odd stolen car too and knowing where it is on the road.

That's exactly what I was thinking...

AnthonyB

CiniO wrote: »

I see a huge flaw in your logic.

Is your thinking really like that if everyone obeyed speed limits, there would be no road deaths?
And the only reason for road deaths is people speeding.

I don't think it has any relevance.

Yeah I agree speed is only one factor, but it's hugely important, especially in making the difference between fatal and non-fatal accidents. But pervasive monitoring could also alert Gardaí about stolen and uninsured cars on the road, and also be effective at traffic lights.

CiniO wrote: »

I'd even say, if we introduced speed cameras everywhere and made it completely impossible for anyone to be speeding, amount of road death would probably go up. I would be happy to bet money on that.

How would that happen? I don't understand...

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

AnthonyB

PCeeeee wrote: »

Why do you think road deaths are a national disgrace?

Because it's within our gift to enforce traffic law more forcefully, but we choose not to do so.

BorneTobyWilde

Cars should automatically slow to speed limit, should be built into them to do so.
Sign should transmit signal to car, then car slows to that speed.
Of course to over ride it should only be a matter of pressing down to go faster.
I believe most tickets go to people who don't realize they are over the speed limit of the road they're on.
Most tickets are for the 50km and 60km zones also, easy to be out by 5km in those zones.

AnthonyB

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Cars should automatically slow to speed limit, should be built into them to do so.
Sign should transmit signal to car, then car slows to that speed.
Of course to over ride it should only be a matter of pressing down to go faster.
I believe most tickets go to people who don't realize they are over the speed limit of the road they're on.
Most tickets are for the 50km and 60km zones also, easy to be out by 5km in those zones.

BMW and Mercedes have a gentleman's agreement to limit their cars to 250kmph.

On the slower zones - I don't think they'll ping you if you're under 10km over, but I could be wrong on that. They certainly don't broadcast it, for obvious reasons.

AnthonyB

So people, what about the autonomous cars argument? Forget cameras and cops, the cars themselves can rat out their own drivers. Shouldn't that be mandated by the government in order to register such cars in Ireland? So - if you want to sell autonomous vehicles here, their data feeds must be routed through a Government cloud to monitor cars for speed, tax, insurance and nct compliance. Real-diagnostics can even obviate the need for the NCT...isn't that a good thing?

Drummerboy08

Speed doesn't kill. It's not knowing when to slow down that kills.

I would rather see money invested in proper driver education from an early age than to see cameras installed every 500 meters.

If people were properly educated about driving in this country we'd have a massive reduction in deaths on Irish roads.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Vic_08

Is this the thread for people who read 1984 and thought it all sounded like a great idea?

Sam Russell

Jayop wrote: »

Do 10 percent of road deaths even happen on motorways?

I would not think so, but it could make a difference in driver attitude.

However I would expect a result on the other areas. Monitoring cars for NCT, insurance, tax, and stolen/false identities would certainly cut down on these offences. Average speed monitoring would make speeding on motorways unproductive.

Variable speed enforcement on the M50 would be a good thing, as would lane discipline and crazy driving but that is more difficult.

deandean

Total speed monitoring? NO!

My one and only "speeding" fine was for driving at 56 in a 50 zone in Dublin at 6.30am of a
Sunday morning. This was a pure revenue raiser for the government.

TBH I don't see that much speeding now, compared to 15 years ago.

Most of the speeders I see on the motorways are N.I. / U.K. registered plates which are pretty immune to fines here.

On the motorways there's the occasional speeder but I don't see them as a safety issue.

By far the biggest factor in road accidents, IMO, is the human factor: not paying enough attention to the road and to your environment when you're driving; and bad behaviour such as lack of lane discipline and inappropriate (as distinct to over-the-limit) speed.

Nationwide speed cameras won't do a toss to improve the human factor. They'll just lead to yet more penalties on the 'squeezed middle'.

Del2005

AnthonyB wrote: »

So people, what about the autonomous cars argument? Forget cameras and cops, the cars themselves can rat out their own drivers. Shouldn't that be mandated by the government in order to register such cars in Ireland? So - if you want to sell autonomous vehicles here, their data feeds must be routed through a Government cloud to monitor cars for speed, tax, insurance and nct compliance. Real-diagnostics can even obviate the need for the NCT...isn't that a good thing?

If the car is autonomous then it'll be the car breaking the law not the person sitting in it, it'd be like giving the passenger in a taxi points for an offence committed by the driver.


The government can't do technology. Look at the farce of the health service being computerised (cost millions and just dropped) , Garda pulse system (which missed that "drivers licence" was repeatedly getting stopped but never flagged), the evoting machines (which were easily hacked and had no way to verify the votes), an ANPR system which doesn't work due to no central database of insurance.

Atlantic Dawn

At the end of the day it always goes back to this...the faster the car the safer you are...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qubpD1SMHUY

marno21

One way of cutting road deaths would be upgrading the inter-regional roads and national secondaries.

The roads to Dublin (M1 to the border, M6 to Galway, M7 to Limerick, M8 to Cork, M9 to Waterford & M11 to the south east) have been upgraded to motorway in the last 10 years or so so there are no head on collisions, weather related collisions, overtaking related accidents etc. The problem is that inter regional roads, between Dublin, Donegal, Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Tralee, Cork, Waterford & Wexford (such as the N15, N17, N20, N22, N25 etc) are either narrow, windy, single carriageway or massively wide 'runway' type roads. On the narrow parts, traffic is slow moving and overtaking is difficult, whilst on the 'runway' sections you have a free-for-all of overtaking, driving in the hard shoulder and speeding. Upgrading these important arteries would result in a removal of similar acccidents on these roads.

ironclaw

I'd be all for static and mobile NCT / Tax and Insurance. I can't understand why GoSafe don't have a contract for doing so. They record every plate going by regardless, run them when they hit the office in Tullamore and belt out a fine in the post if any of the above are missing.

It would also mean less Garda time spent on checkpoints and patrolling as you have 24/7 coverage, again freeing up resources to actually do productive, human orientated work. Taking a big step forward, we could also bring in a completely online tax system. No discs, perhaps the ability to tax a car for a day, week or month. Frankly that would be utopia and with a little joined up thinking, incredibly easy to implement.

M50, you could easily model the traffic flow and automate tickets for tail gating and incorrect lane usage.

Of course, never going to happen without a tribunal or two or blowing a couple of hundred million on someone ministers best mate to try their hand at milking the contract for all its worth

ohnonotgmail

marno21 wrote: »

One way of cutting road deaths would be upgrading the inter-regional roads and national secondaries.

The roads to Dublin (M1 to the border, M6 to Galway, M7 to Limerick, M8 to Cork, M9 to Waterford & M11 to the south east) have been upgraded to motorway in the last 10 years or so so there are no head on collisions, weather related collisions, overtaking related accidents etc. The problem is that inter regional roads, between Dublin, Donegal, Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Tralee, Cork, Waterford & Wexford (such as the N15, N17, N20, N22, N25 etc) are either narrow, windy, single carriageway or massively wide 'runway' type roads. On the narrow parts, traffic is slow moving and overtaking is difficult, whilst on the 'runway' sections you have a free-for-all of overtaking, driving in the hard shoulder and speeding. Upgrading these important arteries would result in a removal of similar acccidents on these roads.

This +1. when you look at the stats for road deaths in 2015 http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Crash%20Stats/Provisional%20Review%20of%20Fatalities%202015.pdf

you will see that most deaths occur on rural roads. There were three deaths in total on 120Km/H roads in 2015. while 3 is 3 too much putting average speed cameras on motorways is going to do little or nothing to reduce roads deaths. If you really want to reduce road fatalities we need more gardai on the roads enforcing the existing laws. More than a quarter of the drivers who died on our roads last year were not wearing a seat belt. those people could be alive today if they were wearing them.

Quite frankly the OP is a joke. As somebody else said it reads like a Daily Mail story than an attempt to propose a solution to a problem.

gctest50

deandean wrote: »

Total speed monitoring? NO!

My one and only "speeding" fine was for driving at 56 in a 50 zone in Dublin at 6.30am of a Sunday morning.
............

that's why these will become more common

Indricotherium

CiniO wrote: »

I see a huge flaw in your logic.

Is your thinking really like that if everyone obeyed speed limits, there would be no road deaths?
And the only reason for road deaths is people speeding.

I don't think it has any relevance.

I'd even say, if we introduced speed cameras everywhere and made it completely impossible for anyone to be speeding, amount of road death would probably go up. I would be happy to bet money on that.

Speed limis are just some general guidance, which very often have nothing to do with safe speed which everyone should be adhering to. Sometimes to be safe, you need to be below speed limit, other times, you might be double the speed limit and still be safe.

It's not as simple as you paint it.

Give me one example of somewhere in Ireland, where driving double the speed limit, would not have a devastatingly worse impact if an accident were to occur versus if a person were driving at or below the limit.

Melodeon

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

More than a quarter of the drivers who died on our roads last year were not wearing a seat belt.

I'd strongly suspect that a good number of those fall into the 'elephant in the room' category mentioned earlier in the thread.

frozenfrozen

Indricotherium wrote: »

Give me one example of somewhere in Ireland, where driving double the speed limit, would not have a devastatingly worse impact if an accident were to occur versus if a person were driving at or below the limit.

straw man argument.

he never said there would not be a worse impact at higher speeds. That's just physics.

There are plenty of roads with inappropriate speed limits, in some cases too slow and and some cases too fast.

Indricotherium

frozenfrozen wrote: »

straw man argument.

he never said there would not be a worse impact at higher speeds. That's just physics.

There are plenty of roads with inappropriate speed limits, in some cases too slow and and some cases too fast.

It absolutely is not a straw man argument.

The contention is that on some roads in Ireland, driving double the speed limit will cause no harm.

Speed limits exist to prevent accidents and to ameliorate the impacts, and harm of accidents that do happen.

Is driving 240km/h possible on a lot of the motorway network?, Absolutely.

Will an accident at that speed cause more harm than one at 120, or under? YES.

Del2005

Indricotherium wrote: »

Speed limits exist to prevent accidents and to ameliorate the impacts, and harm of accidents that do happen.

If that is the case why are boreens with grass down the middle 80km/h and some sections of N roads 60km/h? What happened to the N4 when it changed to an R that it had to drop from a 100 to an 80?

Most of our speed limits are completely out of whack for the road with some being way to high and others stupidity low.

inforfun

Dont think there are many countries that have as many traffic/speed camera as the country where the inventor of that ****ing thing is from, The Netherlands.

I can imagine if i would make a trip from Rotterdam to Amsterdam ( 70 km) i could have a movie made out of all the speed camera footage.

Road fatalities in 2015 in Ireland: 165
In The Netherlands: 570 (2014, cant find for 2015 but has been around the 570 mark for a few years now)

Now of course there are about 4x as many people in The Netherlands.
But there are not nearly as many roads as dangerous as there are here in Ireland.
And there is a proper drivers education in place.

Indricotherium

inforfun wrote: »

Dont think there are many countries that have as many traffic/speed camera as the country where the inventor of that ****ing thing is from, The Netherlands.

I can imagine if i would make a trip from Rotterdam to Amsterdam ( 70 km) i could have a movie made out of all the speed camera footage.

Road fatalities in 2015 in Ireland: 165
In The Netherlands: 570 (2014, cant find for 2015 but has been around the 570 mark for a few years now)

Now of course there are about 4x as many people in The Netherlands.
But there are not nearly as many roads as dangerous as there are here in Ireland.
And there is a proper drivers education in place.

But sure the km's driven in the Netherlands must be 1000 times that of Ireland?

inforfun

Really dont think so tbh. Small country.
Private car ownership is rather expensive, more than here in any case
Mostly proper public transport although being too expensive.
Lot of company cars though.

Edit:

Average per fuel type
Benzine – 11.000 km
Diesel – 24.000 km
LPG – 18.000 km

Average apparently 20.000 per year per car which seems weird looking at the above. But it is from the same source

ohnonotgmail

Indricotherium wrote: »

But sure the km's driven in the Netherlands must be 1000 times that of Ireland?

in fatalities/100,000KM we have less than the netherlands, in 2013 at least. this is despite them having better roads and more speed cameras.

Bio Mech

Indricotherium wrote: »

But sure the km's driven in the Netherlands must be 1000 times that of Ireland?

Where did you magic that figure from? Netherlands has 4x as many people as Ireland, roughly. So you think on average people in the Netherlands drive 250 times as much as Irish people per year?

As usual your logic and your figures don't stack up.

Indricotherium

inforfun wrote: »

Really dont think so tbh. Small country.
Private car ownership is rather expensive, more than here in any case
Mostly proper public transport although being too expensive.
Lot of company cars though.

Edit:

Average per fuel type
Benzine – 11.000 km
Diesel – 24.000 km
LPG – 18.000 km

Average apparently 20.000 per year per car which seems weird looking at the above. But it is from the same source

But sure it's plonked in the middle of the European motorway network, and the busiest port in the world is there.

gozunda

AnthonyB wrote: »

Why don't we have speed cameras everywhere, or universal monitoring of road traffic? Everyone who breaks the law on our roads should be held accountable, and the technology is there to do it cheaply and efficiently.

Road deaths are a national disgrace. It's a small country, and it's not difficult to make sure road safety is a priority, if we have the political will to do it. There are issues around equal rights - the Gardaí are cleaning up their act - and due process (the jury's still out), but in principle the objective still holds. There may be civil liberties concerns, but the good must outweigh the bad.

Furthermore, this is an increasingly important conversation as we start to see self-driving cards coming onto the roads. How will they be monitored? Will the manufacturers be required to relay all data to the Gardaí or some regulatory body in order that road traffic law is respected? Or will the government require all smart-car companies provide access to data after the fact when there's an issue, precipitating disputes like the Apple-FBI case in San Bernardino?

So what are the concerns? And why don't we actually do it, and roll out automated cameras everywhere?!

Are road deaths here a 'national disgrace'? Ok every death the could be avoided is a concern. However asfaik Ireland is not anyway at the top of road deaths worldwide.

For example see:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

As for your comment why "everyone who breaks the law on our roads should be held accountable, and the technology is there to do it cheaply and efficiently."

That argument could be pushed for all law breaking not that which is just motor related. Cctv surveillance is now universal.

But back to motor related issues why not just advocate for speed limiters to be placed on all vehicles in order to stop speading. In Self drive cars this should be an easy option imo. That would be a lot cheaper than rolling out some Orwellian dystopia

And asfaik an owner of a self drive car will still be liable unless they can prove otherwise.

inforfun

Indricotherium wrote: »

But sure it's plonked in the middle of the European motorway network, and the busiest port in the world is there.

Eastern part of the country has enough roads with nice trees.
As said, not as many dangerous roads as here but still.

Speed camera's are mostly a money making machine.



This is a trip of 76 km.

5 speed checks, 8 max speed changes, 4 different maximum speeds.

ED E

Forget the speed component and simply look at insurance. If we can take most of the uninsured drivers off the road it will help everyones premiums. This is a win win. The speed controls are just a bonus to help fun AGSs useless traffic corps.