Cheap wedding photography business, does a market exist?

bren2002

I deliberately posted in this forum to get a photographers opinion.

Supposing you could make the sums work on the business side, does a market exist for a cheap wedding photographer? Say €500 - €750 as a ballpark.

I'm interested to hear people's take on the market, not the business model.

Paulw

There are already many wedding "photographers" working in that price point. Quality varies greatly.

bren2002

Yes but do these people rely on the up sell after the fact? Extra prints, albums etc.

Paulw

They rely on their day jobs and see weddings as extra pocket money, usually.

bren2002

I'm curious if the Ryanair and technologhy models could be applied to the industry. I found few examples of people operating at the €500 level. I wonder could it be driven further down, possibly to €299.

Cianmcliam

bren2002 wrote: »

I'm curious if the Ryanair and technologhy models could be applied to the industry. I found few examples of people operating at the €500 level. I wonder could it be driven further down, possibly to €299.

You'd be working well below minimum wage at that point, unless you do 'shoot & burn' with no post-processing. Can't see that market taking off.

bren2002

Sure I can appriciate how working below min wage could happen, but as I say assume the business model can be solved using technology.

screamer

Its an over saturated market with a lot of under talented suppliers. Recent years have seen anyone with a fancy camera set up as a photographer. Course there is a market for cheap as there are cheapskate customers out there who will spend thousands on a dress and cut spending on everything else to bits. problem is same said cheapskate will expect a champagne service on a beer budget and will take to various internet for a to slate any supplier who gives them less than they expect regardless of your terms and conditions. My advise would be charge a better fee go for fewer bookings with clients thar have reasonable budgets and don't enter the budget basement sector.

Cianmcliam

bren2002 wrote: »

Sure I can appriciate how working below min wage could happen, but as I say assume the business model can be solved using technology.

I don't think there's much room for automation, people don't want to see a sizeable amount of unflattering pictures of themselves and their loved ones on their 'happiest day'. It would tarnish their memory of the event and they will blame the photographer for having poor skills. Since most customers value word of mouth above almost anything else, customers will dry up fast. A lot of weeding out and sensitive adjustment needs to be done by hand or not at all.

bren2002

Sure, good points re expectations and talent.
Talent is sort of the angle I'm coming from. Suppose you could remove the talent element and reduce it to a technical competence. A lot of photographers are trying to get award winning shots and spend a lot of time and effort on it. I wonder how much of this effort is appreciated by the punter.

Straight Edge Punk

The market certainly exists but if you pay peanuts.........

It's the one thing you will have to look back on in years to come to remind you of the day so why would you want to go down the cheap route?

bren2002

Straight Edge Punk wrote: »

The market certainly exists but if you pay peanuts.........

It's the one thing you will have to look back on in years to come to remind you of the day so why would you want to go down the cheap route?

But as a corollary how many albums are put away and never looked from one end of the year to the other. That's a lot of wasted photographer effort that the punter is paying for.

IllBeGrand

One thing I learned lately being part of a wedding party is that a good photographer is an absolute pro. It goes beyond just taking photographs, they help you with the logistics, know exactly what needs to be done and when, have contingencies in their head if the weather is bad, keep the whole thing moving.

A good wedding photographer winds up doing way more than pointing and shooting!

bren2002

Are the current market suppliers in tune with the latest customer? The millennial who is used to an online experience, not paying for music or movies and only paying 99c for software. I think this group don't see these photos as the only record anymore. I think they'll absorb from multiple sources, Instagram, what's app groups, snapchat etc.

CelticRambler

bren2002 wrote: »

assume the business model can be solved using technology.

What technology? At the very least, you're going to have to be physically present at the wedding site to take the pictures, which means (a) getting there [allow up to two hours] (b) taking the pictures, not forgetting to allow time for "crowd management" and "weather events" [allow what, 4 hours? for a one-site wedding] (c) getting home again [another 2 hours], and (d) at least a cursory review of the images.

Bearing in mind that just about every customer will want you to be there late morning/early-mid afternoon, you're limited to one customer a day, so that's one whole working day that's got to be paid for (plus travelling and equipment expenses) before any technology can get to work, and you haven't actually provided the customer with any photos yet.

So how are you going to sell that 300€ fee to the customer?

Straight Edge Punk

You really don't seem to be listening to anybody going against your opinion.

I guarantee I could grab my camera and advertise €200 wedding packages and have a booking by the end of the week. My work however won't come close to the other lads out there offering their services for €1000+.

flyingsnail

Let’s just say you did start doing weddings either part time or full time at €300, how much of that do you actually get to take home.

€300
Less cost of delivery ( direct costs for that wedding eg CD or USB, travel or meal)
Less cost of business (general business costs eg: Insurance, camera, computer, website, advertising ect....)
Less Tax
= ???

There is also the “too cheap” factor. A lot of people would look at the price and assume you are cheap for a reason, and not usually a good reason.

bren2002

Sure, I don't think you could use drones!! But I think there are oppertunities to outsource post processing, deliver electronically, meet over Skype instead of face to face. Just some examples.

bren2002

Straight Edge Punk wrote: »

You really don't seem to be listening to anybody going against your opinion.

I guarantee I could grab my camera and advertise €200 wedding packages and have a booking by the end of the week. My work however won't come close to the other lads out there offering their services for €1000+.

Sorry if I come across that way. I very much value all inputs, I'm just challenging thinking. Both myself and others. I fully expect that the quality wouldn't be the same. Just as the 5k guy is going to be different to the 1k guy.

Bacchus

I don't really understand the point of this thread. There's already a market for cheap wedding photographers, just as there's a market for high end wedding photography.

If the point is to find the bottom of the barrel (€299 you seem to suggest) then I really would question what type of quality you are getting for that money and is it worth it? As Screamer pointed out, many couples are happy to spend huge money on various aspects of their day that last literally just that day (dress, venue, drink, food, flowers, etc.) but photographs, the thing that last a lifetime is seen as something that should be done as cheaply as possible. That's all grand, to each their own but to expect quality to go hand in hand with cheap prices is a rarity.

You can apply the same logic to wedding dresses, venues and flowers. Is there a market for cheap versions of those? Yes, of course there does but don't expect anything other than a cheap product (granted there is a second hand market for some things, but that doesn't apply to photography).

I started out with wedding photography last year with 2 weddings (I have a full time job too btw). I was in the "cheap" range around €500. I've 4 weddings this year and I scaled up my pricing accordingly to the point where I'm a mid-priced (sub €1k) photographer. In my own biased opinion I could be charging considerably more but I'm in the position that I still need to build my portfolio (and the irritably difficult SEO rankings :P). I'm pretty much breaking even (at 4 weddings for the year) with equipment costs, insurance, hosting and travel (not to mention the time I put into it). Next year I plan on pricing more competitively again and see how I go. So in the context of your question, having exited my "cheap wedding photography" phase, yes there's a market for it but it's very very crowded.

As for the automated technology angle. The very best of luck to you figuring out how to successfully do that. When you do, you should patent it and make millions. The closest thing I can think of to that is the service where your guests install an app on their phone so that all the pictures they take on your wedding day go to a central server and BOOM, there's your wedding photos.

Synchronicity

CelticRambler wrote: »

What technology? At the very least, you're going to have to be physically present at the wedding site to take the pictures, which means (a) getting there [allow up to two hours] (b) taking the pictures, not forgetting to allow time for "crowd management" and "weather events" [allow what, 4 hours? for a one-site wedding] (c) getting home again [another 2 hours], and (d) at least a cursory review of the images.

Bearing in mind that just about every customer will want you to be there late morning/early-mid afternoon, you're limited to one customer a day, so that's one whole working day that's got to be paid for (plus travelling and equipment expenses) before any technology can get to work, and you haven't actually provided the customer with any photos yet.

So how are you going to sell that 300€ fee to the customer?

The only way you could do it would be as an absolute base to start off with and as a way to build your portfolio. Ten €300 weddings, then up it to €500. Ten of them, up it to €750, etc. Daft to think it could be done indefinitely at €300.

Bacchus

bren2002 wrote: »

Sure, I don't think you could use drones!! But I think there are oppertunities to outsource post processing, deliver electronically, meet over Skype instead of face to face. Just some examples.

There are already services that do post processing for you. I've seen some photographers I follow mention it in the past. That service comes at a fee though which ultimately comes out of your pocket and therefore your clients.

Meeting over Skype is nothing new to the industry. Meeting in person is not mandatory and is usually on the photographers terms (home turf) anyway so the expense there for the photographer is minimal.

Similarly, delivering photos electronically is easily done and has been for years (that's how we received our photos when we got married 3 years ago... today incidentally ). Services like SmugMug make that very easy and cost effective.

bren2002

Synchronicity wrote: »

The only way you could do it would be as an absolute base to start off with and as a way to build your portfolio. Ten €300 weddings, then up it to €500. Ten of them, up it to €750, etc. Daft to think it could be done indefinitely at €300.

Why is it daft? Scale it.
That's where traditional photographers struggle, there's too much reliance on personality and reputation they can't easily scale.

screamer

Also OP brides want to be fussed over with the photographer there a la paparazzi to make them feel like a celebrity on their big day. It's all part of it you know and no way in hell id be subjecting myself to that level of tiring theatrics for a few hundred quid.
Your idea may seem great on paper but get out there and experience a few weddings and divas for yourself and you'll soon see why good photographers charge what they do.

Cianmcliam

bren2002 wrote: »

Why is it daft? Scale it.
That's where traditional photographers struggle, there's too much reliance on personality and reputation they can't easily scale.

That's because the photographer is going to be there looking over your shoulder and watching practically every moment of your day, interacting with your guests etc. I think most people want to know what this person will be like, how they got on with other couples, did their photos flatter the couple or are they just ordinary etc. etc.
You probably don't want some agency guy turning up on the most important day of your life, you are buying the personality and reputation of the photographer.

bren2002

Bacchus wrote: »

The closest thing I can think of to that is the service where your guests install an app on their phone so that all the pictures they take on your wedding day go to a central server and BOOM, there's your wedding photos.

Ive seen this done with the use of hashtags. I'm not even sure there was an official photographer at that one.

Paulw

bren2002 wrote: »

But I think there are oppertunities to outsource post processing, deliver electronically, meet over Skype instead of face to face. Just some examples.

Many of those are already used, even by those costing €3k+

Bacchus

bren2002 wrote: »

Are the current market suppliers in tune with the latest customer? The millennial who is used to an online experience, not paying for music or movies and only paying 99c for software. I think this group don't see these photos as the only record anymore. I think they'll absorb from multiple sources, Instagram, what's app groups, snapchat etc.

How people view media and the abundance of it will have an impact I'm sure... it is interesting what effect it will have over the next decade. However, I believe that when it comes to your wedding day, snapchat photos with the latest cool filter won't cut it and the level of quality provided by a pro will still be in demand. It's probably the day on which you are going to look the best you will ever look, surrounded by the people you love. My bet is that the demand for higher end photography will remain strong and probably grow.

bren2002

Cianmcliam wrote: »

That's because the photographer is going to be there looking over your shoulder and watching practically every moment of your day, interacting with your guests etc. I think most people want to know what this person will be like, how they got on with other couples, did their photos flatter the couple or are they just ordinary etc. etc.
You probably don't want some agency guy turning up on the most important day of your life, you are buying the personality and reputation of the photographer.

Is that the old market though? Is the market shifting?

Paulw

bren2002 wrote: »

Is that the old market though? Is the market shifting?

Is it? How? Where? To what?

Cianmcliam

bren2002 wrote: »

Is that the old market though? Is the market shifting?

I don't think so, I think it's split between the 'we have no real interest in professional photos' crowd who will do Instagram pics or disposable cameras, and the mainstream who want someone who will make them feel comfortable and looking their best.

bigpink

bren2002 wrote: »

Is that the old market though? Is the market shifting?

Not an expert but if anything the competition is greater so better service is winning through

bren2002

Paulw wrote: »

Is it? How? Where? To what?

To a younger person who doesn't buy a physical book, has never bought or owned a cd or DVD. Who consumes everything electronically and wants it all instantly.

Bacchus

bren2002 wrote: »

Why is it daft? Scale it.
That's where traditional photographers struggle, there's too much reliance on personality and reputation they can't easily scale.

Excuse my ignorance but how do you "scale" wedding photography? It's not as if you can have some sort of "Wedding-Photography-as-a-Service" running on the Cloud.

Also, personality and reputation are huge things to take into consideration. Particularly the personality. Who wants a stick in the mud hanging out with them on their wedding day. Photographers bring a lot more to the day than pointing and clicking. They have a huge creative and organisational input into your day.

Bacchus

bren2002 wrote: »

To a younger person who doesn't buy a physical book, has never bought or owned a cd or DVD. Who consumes everything electronically and wants it all instantly.

You can also point to the surge in Vinyl sales that people are longing to reconnect with physical media in an age where everything is digital.

screamer

bren2002 wrote: »

Is that the old market though? Is the market shifting?

No. I can tell you the vast majority of brides want everything very traditional the pomp the ceremony the lot they just dont want to pay for it. They want the service and the princess treatment but they don't want to pay for your time. TBH if a model such as you are talking about would worked id have thought photoboiths would be the norm at every wedding but they are on the slide. automation and big day don't go together. I've never been to a self service buffet wedding reception with those hot counters used for breakfast and the guests including the couple lining up to serve their own dinners........

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

bren2002 wrote: »

Why is it daft? Scale it.
That's where traditional photographers struggle, there's too much reliance on personality and reputation they can't easily scale.

Without a personality, the sale is going to be incredibly difficult. IMO, personality is what sells many packages.

bren2002

screamer wrote: »

No. I can tell you the vast majority of brides want everything very traditional the pomp the ceremony the lot they just dont want to pay for it. They want the service and the princess treatment but they don't want to pay for your time. TBH if a model such as you are talking about would worked id have thought photoboiths would be the norm at every wedding but they are on the slide. automation and big day don't go together. I've never been to a self service buffet wedding reception with those hot counters used for breakfast and the guests including the couple lining up to serve their own dinners........

See that's interesting, you're seeing the 99c software and never paid for music mentality. Possibly crossed with the Pinterest lifestyle!

bren2002

Bacchus wrote: »

You can also point to the surge in Vinyl sales that people are longing to reconnect with physical media in an age where everything is digital.

This would be niche though, you'd have to concede that

bren2002

Bria Beautiful Umbrella wrote: »

Without a personality, the sale is going to be incredibly difficult. IMO, personality is what sells many packages.

Can you change the package though. Who really wants all the makeup shots of people running around in pjs.

stoplooklisten

Cianmcliam wrote: »

You'd be working well below minimum wage at that point, unless you do 'shoot & burn' with no post-processing. Can't see that market taking off.

I got that "shoot & burn" as you call it and it worked for me!

I have all the originals, can print out as many albums with as many pictures as I like and I didn't have to wait months.

Paulw

bren2002 wrote: »

See that's interesting, you're seeing the 99c software and never paid for music mentality. Possibly crossed with the Pinterest lifestyle!

Sure why not give it a go, and come back in a year and let us know how your business is doing?

bren2002

stoplooklisten wrote: »

I got that "shoot & burn" as you call it and it worked for me!

I have all the originals, can print out as many albums with as many pictures as I like and I didn't have to wait months.

Can I ask how much you paid?

screamer

bren2002 wrote: »

See that's interesting, you're seeing the 99c software and never paid for music mentality. Possibly crossed with the Pinterest lifestyle!

I'll let you in on a secret OP rmthise with that mentality all expect this Rolls Royce service (and you'll find they book 5* hotels and shrimp on everything else ). Time is money and after having your heart broken with a few bridezillas as I like to call them you'll wonder why did you ever think this was a good idea. It's neither scaleable not saleable. They all think they're on don't tell the bride and out to get everything their heart desires on whatever they think it's worth spending on it. Stay clear of the penny pincher market there are realistic couples out there who appreciate and value artistic work and nice suppliers. That's my target market.

Bacchus

bren2002 wrote: »

This would be niche though, you'd have to concede that

I don't think anyone needs to be conceding anything. You're making a fairly tenuous argument based on very little (mostly speculation that SnapChat and Instagram will replace the desire for a wedding photographer) and I just pointed to a growing market that opposes that argument. Also, the time lag should be factored in here too. Social media has been going for about 10 years and only really peaked in the last 5 years. This move back towards physical media has only really taken off in the last year or two. I think we'll see as these young pups get their own places and set down roots, they'll want to fill it with things that make them happy. Print's not dead.

bren2002

I was just making the point that vinyl is niche.

I'm exploring an idea on a discussion forum, nothing else.

Bacchus

bren2002 wrote: »

Can you change the package though. Who really wants all the makeup shots of people running around in pjs.

Plenty of people do

And then you have the market that doesn't want all that. I think it should be clear that there is a market for all sorts of different package and prices in Ireland. No one is arguing that.

However, this idea of automating wedding photography with technology... that's a niche market and not one that is going to pay much. As I said though, come up with an idea to do it successfully and you'll be rich.

Bacchus

bren2002 wrote: »

I was just making the point that vinyl is niche.

I'm exploring an idea on a discussion forum, nothing else.

And that's grand... just don't tell me I "have" to concede a point when nothing of the sort is required.

bren2002

To be clear. Thanks to everyone who contributed. I very much value being challenged.

Homer

Presumably you will be declaring your revenue as a wedding photographer which means you can instantly deduct 30% or so from your fee for a start for future tax payments?

A professional photographer will generally visit the location of the wedding in advance to scout locations. Have you factored that in or just going to wing it on the day of the wedding?
A professional photographer will have invested a substantial amount of money in cameras, lenses and lighting equipment. Equipment fails so you need to have backups. Hard to recoup your money at €300 a wedding!
A professional photographer needs to have professional indemnity insurance and public liability insurance (some venues won't allow photographers to shoot without this) Have you thought about this?

Interested to hear your thoughts on those points.

screamer

OP I'm not saying don't try it I'm just sharing my "if I knew then what I know now" with you and it's something I wish I would have had shared with me when I started out. Do let us know how you get on with it all im very intrigued anyways and good luck.