Navan railway line

Stephen15

Why can't a passenger station be opened on this line. I know they have plans to extend the m3 line to there but surely a better more cost effective solution would be to run trains on the current stretch of track to navan a system. What they could do is run an ordinary 8 carriage dundalk commuter as far as drogheda and split the train there with four carriages going to dundalk and four to navan I know that system is used in England.

Cravens

Impossible, I'm afraid Stephen. The line to Navan splits off before the platform at Drogheda, so the only way the splitting of a train could work is for the train to split in Laytown. But the restoration of the old Navan line for passenger traffic might be more cost-effective that re-building the M3 line (which is off the table now due to the EC cutting funding for it).

Del.Monte

Cravens wrote: »

Impossible, I'm afraid Stephen. The line to Navan splits off before the platform at Drogheda, so the only way the splitting of a train could work is for the train to split in Laytown. But the restoration of the old Navan line for passenger traffic might be more cost-effective that re-building the M3 line (which is off the table now due to the EC cutting funding for it).

I'd say the cancelling of the extension of the line from M3 has more to do with Noel Dempsey and the other cretins who allowed roads to be built across the route on the level than the EU. The Drogheda/Navan line was always the obvious link but this is Ireland and we don't do planning or jointed-up thinking.

Stephen15

Cravens wrote: »

Impossible, I'm afraid Stephen. The line to Navan splits off before the platform at Drogheda, so the only way the splitting of a train could work is for the train to split in Laytown. But the restoration of the old Navan line for passenger traffic might be more cost-effective that re-building the M3 line (which is off the table now due to the EC cutting funding for it).

Yes but you could have trains going backwards as far as the junction or as you say split them at laytown don't see why not

Victor

Cravens wrote: »

Impossible, I'm afraid Stephen. The line to Navan splits off before the platform at Drogheda, so the only way the splitting of a train could work is for the train to split in Laytown.

Not ideal, but you could have a driver platform immediately south of Drogheda.

But the restoration of the old Navan line for passenger traffic might be more cost-effective that re-building the M3 line

The dominant passenger flow from Navan will always be to Dublin, sending Navan-Dublin passengers via Drogheda means an unacceptably long journey time.

(which is off the table now due to the EC cutting funding for it).

Who?

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'd say the cancelling of the extension of the line from M3 has more to do with Noel Dempsey and the other cretins who allowed roads to be built across the route on the level

As best I known, there is no such impediment. Competition between an underused motorway and an unbuilt railway is another matter.

cgcsb

opposition to extending M3 to Navan will always point to low patronage on the M3. But of course traffic on the M3 is not why the line is needed. The line is needed because of the daily madness between Cabra Cross and the City Centre.

Before a railway extension to Navan though, there needs to be electrification and resolving of the level crossing issue on the Maynooth line. I'd also argue that the Clonsilla-Dunboyne section could be replaced by a new line breaking off after Navan Rd parkway and stopping at Conolly Hospital, Blanch SC, Mulhuddart, Damastown IP, Clonee and Dunboyne. That way you'll get Blanchardstown well served by rail and provide relief to the Navan Road.

Grandeeod

Victor wrote: »

As best I known, there is no such impediment.

There's a few.

Blackbull. The Trim road was realigned across it. This is the view towards Navan.

BLACKBULL.jpg

Drumree. The new R125 was slapped across it. This is the view towards Dublin.

DRUMREE.jpg

Cannistown. Despite the "box" structure, the realigned road was laid across it. In fact the box structure under the M3 is at a vastly different grade to the alignment in the area. In this pic the line used to run right to left towards navan on an embankment.

CANNISTOWN.jpg

Vic_08

Grandeeod wrote: »

There's a few.

Blackbull. The Trim road was realigned across it. This is the view towards Navan.

BLACKBULL.jpg

Drumree. The new R125 was slapped across it. This is the view towards Dublin.

DRUMREE.jpg

Cannistown. Despite the "box" structure, the realigned road was laid across it. In fact the box structure under the M3 is at a vastly different grade to the alignment in the area. In this pic the line used to run right to left towards navan on an embankment.

CANNISTOWN.jpg

Didn't Meath CC also lay pipes on part of the alignment as well?

Grandeeod

Vic_08 wrote: »

Didn't Meath CC also lay pipes on part of the alignment as well?

Yea. A sewer main in the Dunsaney area. Would need to be moved.

All this was discussed at length on boards so I was a little surprised when Victor claimed there were no impediments. Unless I have misunderstood him.

Del.Monte

Grandeeod wrote: »

Yea. A sewer main in the Dunsaney area. Would need to be moved.

All this was discussed at length on boards so I was a little surprised when Victor claimed there were no impediments. Unless I have misunderstood him.

I was waiting for you to post on this but it seems other people have very short memories.

Seanmk1

Regarding Navan to Dublin via Drogheda. The Enterprise service currently takes between 34 minutes and 42 minutes to do Drogheda to Connolly. Navan to Drogheda shouldn't take more than half an hour. This would give a Navan-Dublin journey time of about 60 to 70 minutes.

The bus currently takes about 80 to 90 minutes depending on traffic. My guess would be that driving in the rush hour would take longer than the bus.

So if all the other requirements fall into place, i.e. upgrade of Navan track, re-instatement of the Drogheda platform, Northern Line capacity, Connolly capacity etc. etc. the train could bring benefits for the good people of Navan.

It's a lot of ifs, but I think that it would be worth a go.

Incidentally, does anyone know what the timetable was for the Navan GAA specials that ran in the 1990s?

trellheim

theres a youtube of one of them somewhere that might give you that.

dowlingm

Considering the unstaffed manual level crossings and so on, and Platin cement being closed, completing the Pace-Navan railway to take passenger AND Tara traffic would be an operational boon for the Northern line by getting that slower traffic off it and make Tara traffic more efficient by not having to stop to open and shut gates. it might have been done already if Meath Council hadn't fecked a water? pipe down on the old alignment and Noel Dempsey hadn't inexplicably ignored it while in Cabinet

Victor

Grandeeod wrote: »

There's a few.

No fundamental impediment.

Carawaystick

dowlingm wrote: »

Considering the unstaffed manual level crossings and so on, and Platin cement being closed, completing the Pace-Navan railway to take passenger AND Tara traffic would be an operational boon for the Northern line by getting that slower traffic off it and make Tara traffic more efficient by not having to stop to open and shut gates. it might have been done already if Meath Council hadn't fecked a water? pipe down on the old alignment and Noel Dempsey hadn't inexplicably ignored it while in Cabinet

Would trains run at 100kmh on any rebuilt Navan line? Because Irish rail could run a coach service from M3parkway to Navan @100kmh and be able to serve those parts of Navan town away north and east of the Boyne, unlike a train with a fixed destination in Navan.

end of the road

Carawaystick wrote: »

Would trains run at 100kmh on any rebuilt Navan line? Because Irish rail could run a coach service from M3parkway to Navan @100kmh and be able to serve those parts of Navan town away north and east of the Boyne, unlike a train with a fixed destination in Navan.

if built properly and a decent alinement sorted out, i wouldn't see why it couldn't be built to something near 100 kph. by building that line they could potentially take some of those coaches and cars off the road which would be a good thing.

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

Would trains run at 100kmh on any rebuilt Navan line? Because Irish rail could run a coach service from M3parkway to Navan @100kmh and be able to serve those parts of Navan town away north and east of the Boyne, unlike a train with a fixed destination in Navan.

The plan for Navan was 90mph (145 km/h). The section to M3 Parkway can do this, although it is limited to 70 mph for maintenance reasons - and most of the trains used can't do 90mph.

Grandeeod

Victor wrote: »

No fundamental impediment.

I'm disappointed by that response. It could apply to putting astronauts on the Sun.:rolleyes:

Losty Dublin

Seanmk1 wrote: »

The bus currently takes about 80 to 90 minutes depending on traffic. My guess would be that driving in the rush hour would take longer than the bus....

There's some rush hour limited stop buses from Dublin to Navan that take under an hour. A train would probably beat that but is it needed on the route based on loadings?

lucernarian

I've been told by staff in Drogheda that much of the Navan branch had been relaid during the Celtic Tiger days and that most of it is actually ready for 70 mph running. I think there would be level crossing issues and some small-scale replacement track issues, along with (IMO) a very useful reopening of Duleek station and a building of a 4-car platform for the branch at Drogheda station. Move the signal cabin out of the way and claim some of the car park and bingo, a limited service but at a far lower cost that would deliver Navan to Dublin in an hour. See how demand goes and then there's an extra case for building a proper line to Navan over the next 15 years.

It's criminal how the N3 was built without some land take for the railway near Dunshaughlin considering how far away the old alignment is.

And from my experience living near and travelling through Meath, it's hard to underestimate the general incompetency of Meath Co. Co. compared to other county councils. Where national secondary roads still stop at T junctions with local roads and they couldn't manage a successful planning application for the replacement route for a 300 year old bridge. Never mind water pipes on train alignments

Carawaystick

I presume that's the rail alignment crossing the r125 sw of Dunseaghlin where the road is a new build high on an embankment? With no underbridge?

Losty Dublin

Carawaystick wrote: »

I presume that's the rail alignment crossing the r125 sw of Dunseaghlin where the road is a new build high on an embankment? With no underbridge?

At the time of planning the M3 route there was serious talk of aligning the Navan line closer towards Dunshaughlin and even of it going around the town on it's northern side. Perhaps that's why no under bridge was allowed for.

Grandeeod

Losty Dublin wrote: »

At the time of planning the M3 route there was serious talk of aligning the Navan line closer towards Dunshaughlin and even of it going around the town on it's northern side. Perhaps that's why no under bridge was allowed for.

That particular issue never got any further than local councillors. Despite that, the route you are talking about was part of a "route selection" process. It provides absolutely no excuse to the original route being compromised by the M3.

webwayz

I think while the Navan-Drogheda line is there, it should be used.
There used to be GAA Specials - why not this weekend for Dublin v Meath (26/6/16) there be a train from Navan to Dublin (and back), there used to be such in the 1990's. They could even stop in Clontarf/Fairview within walking distance of Croker.

In the distant past there used to be GAA Specials to Croke Park, from the South West using the Phoenix Park tunnel for big match days.

dowlingm

Back then IE probably employed crossing staff, unlike now where 071s with 750 tons or whatever behind have to stop and go...

metrovick001

No crossing keepers on the Navan branch for a long time, a staff member travelled out to Beauparc & operated the gate on the last two specials (1991 & 1996).

Del.Monte

Stephen15

How about they build a train station in navan and run rush hour services from connolly that go to Navan in the meantime before the m3 parkway line is complete.

Del.Monte

Stephen15 wrote: »

How about they build a train station in navan and run rush hour services from connolly that go to Navan in the meantime before the m3 parkway line is complete.

Won't happen and there's no plan to extend beyond M3 Parkway.

Grandeeod

Del.Monte wrote: »

Kilmainhamwood station.

MGWR

Del.Monte wrote: »

Won't happen and there's no plan to extend beyond M3 Parkway.

There's definitely a plan, but they do often get "deferred" usually for political reasons.

Del.Monte

MGWR wrote: »

There definitely was a plan, but they do often get "deferred" usually for political reasons.

FYP

The White Elephant that is the M3 Parkway line is Noel Dempsey's parting give to his grateful constituents.

cmore123

A new platform could be built adjacent to the car park at Drogheda so that the fact that the train bypasses the main platform would be irrelevant.

Grandeeod

cmore123 wrote: »

A new platform could be built adjacent to the car park at Drogheda so that the fact that the train bypasses the main platform would be irrelevant.

All this was suggested over 10 years ago. The excuse then was that considering the Government were building the line over the direct route, they would not countenence spending a smaller amount on an interim solution.

Pure BS of course and we are where we are on this, DU and MN etc. etc. etc.

Banjoxed

Del.Monte wrote: »

FYP

The White Elephant that is the M3 Parkway line is Noel Dempsey's parting give to his grateful constituents.

I'd say some of his constituents along the M3 had more reason to be grateful than others. As an aside, are there still shadow tolls being paid by the State to the road operator? Dempsey Delivered all right.

loyatemu

Grandeeod wrote: »

All this was suggested over 10 years ago. The excuse then was that considering the Government were building the line over the direct route, they would not countenence spending a smaller amount on an interim solution.

here is the suggested Navan-Drogheda-Connolly service from 2007: http://www.railusers.ie/campaigns/navan/navan_drogheda.php

dowlingm

I would have thought getting Tara off the Northern Line would be a big win when trying to schedule 22000s and Enterprises. Would put a bit of constraint on the Clonsilla-Glasnevin capacity of course.

On the flip side, if Indaver had been allowed burn Dublin rubbish the Taras could have been heading back towards Drogheda laden

h.gricer

Del.Monte wrote: »

Ah Del.Monte, your rubbing salt in my wounds, I was nether privileged or in de know in them days to receive a ticket for that tour, don't mention dat raffle for tickets, I had to settle for a lineside chase in a an old battered green Datsun a good friend who took pity on me, I sat in the front seat with broken seat springs that pained my backside all the way to Kingscourt, still a gricer with suffer pain and suffering to get that all important photo.
Regards
h.gricer

Banjoxed

loyatemu wrote: »

here is the suggested Navan-Drogheda-Connolly service from 2007: http://www.railusers.ie/campaigns/navan/navan_drogheda.php

I hadn't looked at the rail users forum for some time, but jayzuz Jamie2k loved pi55ing on the local link bus from Ballinamore to Dromod.

Is any enhancement to rail services acceptable to our resident libertarians? Probably not. Beautiful toasted rolls all round, once they are eaten outside the bus, lads. :rolleyes:

dowlingm

Banjoxed wrote: »

Is any enhancement to rail services acceptable to our resident libertarians? Probably not.

there is nobody on this board, I'm willing to bet, who hasn't broken out the crayons at one time or another. The difference between the killjoys/libertarians/Beeching types as they are regularly labelled here is a certain sense of the likelihood of success, as opposed those who label other posters on this board as such , who presumably go through life with the Beach Boys soundtrack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcWjqWVZrbI

Banjoxed

dowlingm wrote: »

there is nobody on this board, I'm willing to bet, who hasn't broken out the crayons at one time or another. The difference between the killjoys/libertarians/Beeching types as they are regularly labelled here is a certain sense of the likelihood of success, as opposed those who label other posters on this board as such , who presumably go through life with the Beach Boys soundtrack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcWjqWVZrbI

Good point. However, I've lived long enough in Ireland to know the peculiar arteriosclerosis that affects transport choices and population densities in planning and decision making here. I'm fond of the Beach Boys but The Blades seem more appropriate here.

https://youtu.be/b-63awHsd5k

IE 222

South Wexford line could be laid on the navan branch. good line speeds would be easily achieved with that track and its very straight in most parts. No reason 75mph couldn't be permitted on the line and 90mph on Northern line. 60 - 65 min trip with limited stops using ICRs.

Only 2 level crossing to upgrade and maybe some private crossings need more clearance work. 2 new stations navan east and duleek. Double the line from navan to navan east and use plantin as a passing loop for duleek if needed. New single platform at drogheda will also allow a shuttle and feeder service off peak.


Leave m3 for dart underground and look at expanding that line to Ashbourne via fairy house and ratoath instead of maynooth darts.

end of the road

IE 222 wrote: »

South Wexford line could be laid on the navan branch. good line speeds would be easily achieved with that track and its very straight in most parts.

the south wexford track is all bullhead rail now. the bit of cwr was taken up and replaced recently with second hand track pannels from NIR as part of it's "care and maintenence" . it will remain an "engineers siding" until it is ripped up in 2020 if not before hand.

IE 222 wrote: »

No reason 75mph couldn't be permitted on the line and 90mph on Northern line. 60 - 65 min trip with limited stops using ICRs.

i think that might be better as a 2900 job due to the short distance tbh. of course it's a mute point either way as they're is more chance of me being taoiseach then droghida navan being reopened to passengers!

dowlingm

Not to mention the need to keep South Wexford available as a Wicklow line landslide escape route...

IE 222

I'm sure some lightly used cwr could be swapped. Wouldn't need much to upgrade the line as it's of high quality in places already.

Take from nenagh branch if they are not going to increase speeds there.

2900 is ideal with a 2600 from Cork to do off peak shuttles to drogheda but all 2900s would have to be dedicated to commuter services.

An up loop would be needed at clongriffin to put new services on.

dowlingm

Didn't Navan line get some fairly good track a while back? UIC54 off the Cork line when they were laying UIC60 there or something?

Grandeeod

Railway threads are getting so retro lately!

The PPT is coming online and now we are back to Navan via the line from Drogheda. This is like 2003 all over again.:D

Nobody gave a damn in 2003/04/05 though. Anyone got a banjo????

Banjoxed

Grandeeod wrote: »

Railway threads are getting so retro lately!

The PPT is coming online and now we are back to Navan via the line from Drogheda. This is like 2003 all over again.:D

Nobody gave a damn in 2003/04/05 though. Anyone got a banjo????

Does the banjo offer apply to the Drogheda line as well?

Grandeeod

Banjoxed wrote: »

Does the banjo offer apply to the Drogheda line as well?

At this stage I can only say....ABSOLUTELY!:D

Won't happen via Drogheda either before 2025 and by then Tara Mines could be shut anyway.

dowlingm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Anyone got a banjo????

Ask and you shall receive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqxzWdKKu8

Grandeeod

dowlingm wrote: »

Ask and you shall receive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqxzWdKKu8

Their not naked.;)