Dáil => Dawl or Doyle?

Iwasfrozen

An gal gréine wrote: »

Yes but I would run it together. The 'i' has to be pronounced, so "dawl" is not right.
I also have a problem with them using the English alphabet 'd'.
I suppose if they were never told that there is a difference then they just don't know about it.

Just to go back on this if I may, I was reading about Irish orthography to get a better understanding and I came across the below on wikipedia.

Vowels on either side of a fada vowel are silent. They are present only to satisfy the "caol le caol agus leathan le leathan" ("slender with slender and broad with broad") rule. This rule states that e or i (slender) and a or o or u (broad) vowels must be of the same type on both sides of any consonant, to unambiguously determine the consonant's own broad vs slender pronunciation. (An apparent exception is the combination ae, which is followed by a broad consonant despite the e.)
Between a consona

Would this not indicate that the i in Dáil after a broad fada vowel á should be silent in standard Irish and only there to indicate the l is slender?

An gal gréine

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Just to go back on this if I may, I was reading about Irish orthography to get a better understanding and I came across the below on wikipedia.



Would this not indicate that the i in Dáil after a broad fada vowel á should be silent in standard Irish and only there to indicate the l is slender?

Teachta Dála. Dawla would be an approximate pronunciation.
Having an 'i' in the word as in 'Dáil', has to be different in pronunciation.

Niemoj

Dá = Daww, because Á is a lengthened A sound.
il = ill with the i being a shortened sound.

So add them together and you get dawl, brawl with a D basically.

At least that's my understanding and pronounciation of it.

Iwasfrozen

An gal gréine wrote: »

Teachta Dála. Dawla would be an approximate pronunciation.
Having an 'i' in the word as in 'Dáil', has to be different in pronunciation.

So do we pronounce the i as a seperate vowel? Because from my reading of that wiki quote it sounds like the i should be silent next to a fada vowel and only exists to indicate the l is slender?

sryanbruen

I pronounce "Dáil" as Dawl. The 'i' there is like a silent 'p' in English.

Caoimhgh1n

sryanbruen wrote: »

I pronounce "Dáil" as Dawl. The 'i' there is like a silent 'p' in English.

The "i" has to be pronounced.

sryanbruen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

The "i" has to be pronounced.

Then would it not be pronounced like "Daw-il"?

Insect Overlord

sryanbruen wrote: »

Then would it not be pronounced like "Daw-il"?

It should be something closer to that, yes. It's hard to explain it though, because there aren't many equivalent sounds in English to slender consonants in Irish.

Iwasfrozen

An File wrote: »

It should be something closer to that, yes. It's hard to explain it though, because there aren't many equivalent sounds in English to slender consonants in Irish.

So is wikipedia wrong? Or maybe they're counting the slender sounds as silent?

Vowels on either side of a fada vowel are silent. They are present only to satisfy the "caol le caol agus leathan le leathan" ("slender with slender and broad with broad") rule. This rule states that e or i (slender) and a or o or u (broad) vowels must be of the same type on both sides of any consonant, to unambiguously determine the consonant's own broad vs slender pronunciation. (An apparent exception is the combination ae, which is followed by a broad consonant despite the e.)

hullaballoo

Yes, it's wrong. They are not just there to satisfy a rule; the rule is there to attempt to describe pronunciation of the words.

I haven't read the wikipedia page but it shows a lack of any real linguistic knowledge to discuss the "ae" combination in that way when even someone with a passing interest in languages would know it's "æ", which is undoubtedly a broad vowel. (That isn't a sound that would have appeared in Irish at all before the influence of Latin.)

David Webb

hullaballoo wrote: »

Yes, it's wrong. They are not just there to satisfy a rule; the rule is there to attempt to describe pronunciation of the words.

I haven't read the wikipedia page but it shows a lack of any real linguistic knowledge to discuss the "ae" combination in that way when even someone with a passing interest in languages would know it's "æ", which is undoubtedly a broad vowel. (That isn't a sound that would have appeared in Irish at all before the influence of Latin.)

But the rule that "ae" as a whole is broad and so can stand before a broad succeeding consonant is a recent thing. At one time, the correct spelling required contortions to adhere to caol le caol.

Take "aerach" -- there is now seen to be no problem with the e before a broad r, and as you pointed out it is a vowel that is actually broad in pronunciation.

But in Dinneen's dictionary this word is: aedhearach!

Similar problem with "do bhíos" -- at one stage people wrote this "do bhídheas".

But I thinjk there was an element of cod-archaisation in some of these spellings, as not all of them had dh in them in older forms of Irish.

ezra_pound

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So is wikipedia wrong? Or maybe they're counting the slender sounds as silent?

The issue isn't the pronunciation of the slender vowel-it's the pronunciation of the slender consonant.

Day Lewin

The very nearest possible pronunciation for a speaker of English would be something like a shorter, cruder way of saying "the oil":

As in "did you spill th'oil?"

ezra_pound

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So is wikipedia wrong? Or maybe they're counting the slender sounds as silent?

Wikipedia shows two different phonetic symbols for l: one for broad l and one for slender l. So wiki supports the fact that the slender i vowel affects the sound of the l.

See this page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_phonology

Under heading consonants see table of consonant phonemes.

Day Lewin

As a matter of fact, when hearing this name constantly mispronounced on the morning news, it isn't the elusive slender L that sets my teeth on edge as much as the missing broad D.
Especially when a news-reader says, loud and clear, in honest Dublin bourgeois tones:
"The Dawl"

Fact is, if you can say "the" (without the British aspiration, or "buzz" of breath) then you can say Dáil: same initial sound.

Anyway, even without it, "Awl" and "Oil" are still not at all alike.

Even Doyle is still much better than Dawl.

PS I am a native speaker, this was my first language and my pronunciation is near perfect - líofa, and plenty of blas.

David Webb

It's not exactly "dah+il" -- it it dah followed by a slender l, although there may be a slight glide vowel before the l.

In any case, the word dáil can be heard as pronounced by native speakers from Ulster, Connacht and Munster respectively the Teanglann Dot ie site maintained by Foras na G (go to foghraíocht and enter dáil and the three sound files are there). That site is a mine of thousands of sound files pronounced in all 3 dialects. The Ulster pronunciation is considerably different - as they don't seem to have long vowels up there, and so dáil is pronounced in the same way as dail.

David Webb

Try

teanglann Dot ie/ga/fuaim/dáil

David Webb

Tá suíomh eile ar ar féidir leat a lán fuaimeanna le cainnteóirí dúchais a dh'fháil, 'sé sin Fuaimeanna na Gaeilge, suíomh déanta le cúnamh Royal Irish Academy. Éistidh leis na fuaimeanna so - fuaimeanna dot ie/en/Recordings.aspx?Ortho=áil - níl 'dáil' le feiscint ansan, gan dabht, ach tá 'sáil' ansan. Is maith liomsa guth agus blas Dhara Uí Chinnéide, a léann na taifid ón Múmhain...

An gal gréine

David Webb wrote: »

The Ulster pronunciation is considerably different - as they don't seem to have long vowels up there, and so dáil is pronounced in the same way as dail.

This is not the case. Dail would be said the same way in Donegal as in the other dialects with a short 'a'. Dáil, however, comes out with the 'á' as ehhh instead of aaw.

David Webb

An gal gréine wrote: »

This is not the case. Dail would be said the same way in Donegal as in the other dialects with a short 'a'. Dáil, however, comes out with the 'á' as ehhh instead of aaw.

OK, so there's a difference in vowel quality between and a and á up there - I didn't know that.

An Sionnach Glic

Pronunciation at this link in the three main dialects:

http://www.teanglann.ie/en/fuaim/d%C3%A1il

Day Lewin

And - ugh - on a related note: every morning, my teeth on edge when Keelin Shanley says "Finna Fawl"

I mean, seriously, when she is cooking does she use Aluminium Fawl?

David Webb

Kate, you're right, that Fianna Fáil is mispronounced. Fáil is not Foyle.

Fáil (genitive of Fál) is not the same word as in "le fáil", but it is a homophone, and "le fáil" can be heard at www teanglann ie /ga /guaim /le_fáil


But Fianna is also mispronounced. There is a difference between Fianna and Fine (Fine Gael) --

F+diphthong ia+broad n+a
F+i+slender n+i

David Webb

Fáil is one of the recorded words at fuaimeanna dot ie. Three high-quality speakers pronounce all the words there in 3 dialects.

David Webb

Fuaimeanna also shows the pronunciation of Fine Gael, but for some reason the transcriptions there show that Fine has a slender n in the Western dialect, but a broad n in the Northern and Southern dialects. I don't know where they're getting this from, but presumably they have a reason for saying that.

dubhthach

David Webb wrote: »

Fuaimeanna also shows the pronunciation of Fine Gael, but for some reason the transcriptions there show that Fine has a slender n in the Western dialect, but a broad n in the Northern and Southern dialects. I don't know where they're getting this from, but presumably they have a reason for saying that.

Nasc:
http://fuaimeanna.ie/en/Recordings.aspx?Ortho=gael

Na Cainteoirí
http://fuaimeanna.ie/ga/Speakers.aspx

Fáil
http://fuaimeanna.ie/ga/Recordings.aspx?Ortho=f%u00e1il

lawred2

An File wrote: »

It should be something closer to "daw-yil" really, but RTÉ presenters seem to be trained to call it the Doyle.

same with fianna foyle and fine gwale

that drives me mad

Day Lewin

Doyle is still better than Dawl, by a substantial margin.
And Foyle , MUCH closer to the original than "Fawl."
I mean, is Coil the same as Call?
Toil the same as Tall?

and as for Feena vs. Fianna? that is like saying Reely vs. Really. Spot the missing diphthong, the almost-an-extra-syllable. Reely!

David Webb

katemarch wrote: »

Doyle is still better than Dawl, by a substantial margin.
And Foyle , MUCH closer to the original than "Fawl."
I mean, is Coil the same as Call?
Toil the same as Tall?

and as for Feena vs. Fianna? that is like saying Reely vs. Really. Spot the missing diphthong, the almost-an-extra-syllable. Reely!

Yes, as an approximation Foyle and Doyle probably do show the glide into the slender l at the end.

ezra_pound

katemarch wrote: »

Doyle is still better than Dawl, by a substantial margin.
And Foyle , MUCH closer to the original than "Fawl."
I mean, is Coil the same as Call?
Toil the same as Tall?

and as for Feena vs. Fianna? that is like saying Reely vs. Really. Spot the missing diphthong, the almost-an-extra-syllable. Reely!

Is there such a word as reely?

What do you mean reely vs. Really? 'Ea' and 'ee' in English are pronounced the EXACT same.
E.g. meat beat treat real deal tea mean

The old Ea sound can be heard in the pronunciation by some of "Tay, bayte, mayte' etc. For tea beat meat.

One of the few exceptions in which the vowel sound never fully shifted is great.