Dáil => Dawl or Doyle?

Iwasfrozen

So this is something that's been confusing me for a while and I'm wondering if you guys could shed some light. Common convention in and out of the media has Dáil pronounced as Dawl but I've heard a lot of people say it should be pronounced as Doyle.

From my (extremely basic) level of Irish and the help of google I've managed to work out the below.

Broad D (since D precedes á) => Duh
á => aw
i => short eh sound
Slender l => same as English l

So put it together you get Duh - aw - eh - l or "Dawl", so where does Doyle come from? Is this another dialect? A legitimate alternative or simply wrong?

Thanks.

jca

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So this is something that's been confusing me for a while and I'm wondering if you guys could shed some light. Common convention in and out of the media has Dáil pronounced as Dawl but I've heard a lot of people say it should be pronounced as Doyle.

From my (extremely basic) level of Irish and the help of google I've managed to work out the below.

Broad D (since D precedes á) => Duh
á => aw
i => short eh sound
Slender l => same as English l

So put it together you get Duh - aw - eh - l or "Dawl", so where does Doyle come from? Is this another dialect? A legitimate alternative or simply wrong?

Thanks.

Simply wrong, you've answered your own ceist.

Insect Overlord

It should be something closer to "daw-yil" really, but RTÉ presenters seem to be trained to call it the Doyle.

jca

An File wrote: »

It should be something closer to "daw-yil" really, but RTÉ presenters seem to be trained to call it the Doyle.

Trained? Who told you that?

Sam Kade

It's Dawl abything else is false accent nonsense

Iwasfrozen

An File wrote: »

It should be something closer to "daw-yil" really, but RTÉ presenters seem to be trained to call it the Doyle.

Why do you think this is? If Doyle is wrong then why are mispronounciations permitted?

If a news presenter pronounced Parliament as "Pah-rill-ment" they'd be corrected by the studio (or more likely they wouldn't have gotten the job in the first pkace)

Slightly off topic I think Irish needs an official spoken dialect.

screamer

Yep the a fada is AW.
RTE presenters just try to make things sound fancier than they are, note how none of them can say RTE it's ORTE...... it's a D4 I'm think I'm so posh thing......;)

Notoldorwise

RTE presenters seem to have started to mimic Pearse Doherty's Donegal accent......

Captain Chaos

It's just RTE presenters, they can't say the gardai either. They say the goordee.

Neon_Lights

Doyle comes from Anne Doyle, who is like a piece of the furniture in mcgrattans across from leinster house, theyre both in a similar location so I can see where the OP has a bit of confusion.

Some say Anne Doyle is a secret conspirator in a hidden irish government run by the D4 populous to supress the spud eating westerners and coddle shoveling northsiders into supression, in order to ring fence their fois gras lifestyle. But don't shoot the messenger, i heard this off a mad chap at the bus stop, but it made sense to me so it why i shared it with you all.

jca

Neon_Lights wrote: »

Doyle comes from Anne Doyle, who is like a piece of the furniture in mcgrattans across from leinster house, theyre both in a similar location so I can see where the OP has a bit of confusion.

Some say Anne Doyle is a secret conspirator in a hidden irish government run by the D4 populous to supress the spud eating westerners and coddle shoveling northsiders into supression, in order to ring fence their fois gras lifestyle. But don't shoot the messenger, i heard this off a mad chap at the bus stop, but it made sense to me so it why i shared it with you all.

Fair play to her being from Ferns n'all.

Comhairleoir

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So this is something that's been confusing me for a while and I'm wondering if you guys could shed some light. Common convention in and out of the media has Dáil pronounced as Dawl but I've heard a lot of people say it should be pronounced as Doyle.

From my (extremely basic) level of Irish and the help of google I've managed to work out the below.

Broad D (since D precedes á) => Duh
á => aw
i => short eh sound
Slender l => same as English l

So put it together you get Duh - aw - eh - l or "Dawl", so where does Doyle come from? Is this another dialect? A legitimate alternative or simply wrong?

Thanks.

Lots of sounds in Irish that have no English equivalent so people try and pronounce something close to it.

In Irish, try and pronounce every vowel where possible.
So 'Scoil' shouldn't be pronounced like 'skull'. If it were, it would have to be spelled 'Scol'. Instead it should be "sku-ill" - to listen, click on either "C" "M" or "U" beside Scoil on http://www.focloir.ie/en/dictionary/ei/school.

Same logic for Dáil - find it under 'allocate' and click to listen : http://www.focloir.ie/en/dictionary/ei/allocate?advSearch=1&q=d%C3%A1il&inlanguage=ga#allocate__2

Try gloine too - http://www.focloir.ie/en/dictionary/ei/glass?advSearch=1&q=gloine&inlanguage=ga#glass__2

Iwasfrozen

Comhairleoir wrote: »

Lots of sounds in Irish that have no English equivalent so people try and pronounce something close to it.

In Irish, try and pronounce every vowel where possible.
So 'Scoil' shouldn't be pronounced like 'skull'. If it were, it would have to be spelled 'Scol'. Instead it should be "sku-ill" - to listen, click on either "C" "M" or "U" beside Scoil on http://www.focloir.ie/en/dictionary/ei/school.

Same logic for Dáil - find it under 'allocate' and click to listen : http://www.focloir.ie/en/dictionary/ei/allocate?advSearch=1&q=d%C3%A1il&inlanguage=ga#allocate__2

Try gloine too - http://www.focloir.ie/en/dictionary/ei/glass?advSearch=1&q=gloine&inlanguage=ga#glass__2

That still sounds more like Dawyl with a very short y than Doyle.

Caoimhgh1n

It is dialectal, I believe. "ái" can either be pronounced "aw" or "eye" depending on where you're from.

So, I would say Milseáin - Mil- Shine
Ar fáil - Air File
Dáil - Doyle

They are not exact pronunciations of course, but close enough.

luketitz

It sounds a little bit like Chipotle - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ADu3tHanP8

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

It is dialectal, I believe. "ái" can either be pronounced "aw" or "eye" depending on where you're from.

So, I would say Milseáin - Mil- Shine
Ar fáil - Air File
Dáil - Doyle

They are not exact pronunciations of course, but close enough.

Yeah I guess it goes back to what I was saying earlier about needing an "official dialect", not to take anything away from the other dialects but Irish missed out on the standardization that other European languages went through.

I find it amazing that Irish varies more between Donegal and Galway than English and Spanish vary between continents. It's nice to preserve the distinctiveness of dialects but we also need a standard.

Neon_Lights

jca wrote: »

Fair play to her being from Ferns n'all.

It's a long way from d4 to pick up an accent

An gal gréine

Sam Kade wrote: »

It's Dawl abything else is false accent nonsense

The "i" is there to be pronounced.

An gal gréine

An File wrote: »

It should be something closer to "daw-yil" really, but RTÉ presenters seem to be trained to call it the Doyle.

Yes but I would run it together. The 'i' has to be pronounced, so "dawl" is not right.
I also have a problem with them using the English alphabet 'd'.
I suppose if they were never told that there is a difference then they just don't know about it.

eezipc

That was a letter in the Indo yesterday I think.
To me, Doyle is just Dail with a northern accent.

Iwasfrozen

An gal gréine wrote: »

Yes but I would run it together. The 'i' has to be pronounced, so "dawl" is not right.
I also have a problem with them using the English alphabet 'd'.
I suppose if they were never told that there is a difference then they just don't know about it.

What's the difference? How would you say it and what dialect do you speak?

An gal gréine

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What's the difference? How would you say it and what dialect do you speak?

I have the Ulster dialect.
The 'd' in dáil is exactly the same in all the dialects.
In Ulster the 'á' is different but that's a different story.
In the Irish language you hit the back of your teeth with your tongue when saying the 'd' in 'dáil'. This is not done in English.

Iwasfrozen

An gal gréine wrote: »

I have the Ulster dialect.
The 'd' in dáil is exactly the same in all the dialects.
In Ulster the 'á' is different but that's a different story.
In the Irish language you hit the back of your teeth with your tongue when saying the 'd' in 'dáil'. This is not done in English.

I believe you also hit your teeth for the Irish t as well?

OK so would Doyle be more of a Donegal thing while those in Connacht and Munster would say Dawyl with a very short y sound?

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I believe you also hit your teeth for the Irish t as well?

OK so would Doyle be more of a Donegal thing while those in Connacht and Munster would say Dawyl with a very short y sound?

Not always, I know speakers from Connacht and Munster who would say Doyle.

An gal gréine

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I believe you also hit your teeth for the Irish t as well?

OK so would Doyle be more of a Donegal thing while those in Connacht and Munster would say Dawyl with a very short y sound?

Yes, the 't' as well. You can tell a native Irish speaker in the majority of cases by how they pronounce a simple word like 'tá'.

In Donegal we would say it something like Dehil, rather than Doyle, as the 'á' is not said as 'aw' like in the other provinces.
In Belfast they leave out the 'á' and say something like 'dyle'.

Paz-CCFC

Captain Chaos wrote: »

It's just RTE presenters, they can't say the gardai either. They say the goordee.

Their pronunciation of "gardaí" is spot on. According to Munster and standardised Irish, anyway. The A sounds like an O in English - eg, "ard" (high) sounds like the first syllable of "ordinance". They also correctly use a broad D, which comes across a bit like a th in English. So, it kind of sounds like they're saying "gore-thee".

I think that the more northern dialects might give a bit of a harsher "ah" sound when using A, but I don't think it's fully the same as what it's like in English. Most people who say Gardaí like "gahr-dee" in English are, imo, using an anglicised pronunciation rather than any Irish dialect, which is simply incorrect.

Iwasfrozen

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

They're pronunciation of "gardaí" is spot on. According to Munster and standardised Irish, anyway. The A sounds like an O in English - eg, "ard" (high) sounds like the first syllable of "ordinance". They also correctly use a broad D, which comes across a bit like a th in English. So, it kind of sounds like they're saying "gore-thee".

I think that the more northern dialects might give a bit of a harsher "ah" sound when using A, but I don't think it's fully the same as what it's like in English. Most people who say Gardaí like "gahr-dee" in English are, imo, using an anglicised pronunciation rather than any Irish dialect, which is simply incorrect.

You see this is why we need a standardized dialect. These rules need to be codified. It's crazy that we can't even agree on how words like "Dáil" and "gardaí" are pronounced.

Yes you get varience in English but not to this extent. Irish changes more between counties than English and Spanish changes across continents.

The purpose of a standard dialect is not to replace dialects but yo standaruze speech while still allowing for variance in cxeby.

Insect Overlord

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that in full. There's great differences across England alone, if you compare different parts of London, Liverpool, Newcastle, Yorkshire. Irish accents change a lot, e.g. from different neighbourhoods north and south of the Liffey. You'd struggle to make speakers give up their own natural accents to any meaningful level.

Paz-CCFC

We have standardised Irish - an Ghaeilge Chaighdeánach. This is the Irish taught across the country, although certain teachers tend to put their own dialectal twist on things. Few native speakers will speak like that, though, because it's not what they grew up with. They would've learnt the standard to a degree in school, but if you're speaking a certain dialect all day at home, then that will stick. The same way I, being from Cork, don't speak like a Dub. I don't drop my Ts like they would with certain words - eg, alright/alri' or roll my Ts into Rs -eg, get up/gerrup. I don't see that as a problem, really. We can still communicate with one another. Just as I can communicate with someone of another Irish dialect.

I'd agree with an File about the wide variances of English. The distance between Baile Mhúirne and an Daingean is about half that of Manchester and Liverpool. Yet, I would say that the Irish spoken in the former areas is more similar than the English spoken in the latter.

Caoimhgh1n

It's just like vase, advertisement and either, people pronounce words differently, but they can still be understood. For example, I pronounce aghaidh as "eye-g", whereas I know others who would also pronounce it as "eye", without the g sound. I can still fully understand them, so standardisation isn't really necessary.

Iwasfrozen

An File wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that in full. There's great differences across England alone, if you compare different parts of London, Liverpool, Newcastle, Yorkshire. Irish accents change a lot, e.g. from different neighbourhoods north and south of the Liffey. You'd struggle to make speakers give up their own natural accents to any meaningful level.

I don't want to make native speakers give up their pronunciation but I do believe there should be a standard Irish for learners, state media and state exams.

Similar to High German or Standard Italian, even Madrid style Spanish. They don't replace regional dialects but they act as a unifying lynchpin.

At the moment Connacht Irish kind of fulfils that role though it lacks the status necessary. A standardized pronunciation would likely be based mostly on Connacht Irish.