Is TJ Reid a better all round player than Henry Shefflin already?

blue note

It's refreshing to see a thread like this. For years you'd be lynched on forums if you said anything that suggested in any way that shefflin wasn't the best of his generation. You could compare him to past greats like christy ring or John Keane, but any comparison to his modern peers was an insult to him and an admission of hurling ignorance in many people's eyes.

I'm sure it's the same with every generation though. I think people said the same of DJ in the 90s etc. The media looked like they wanted to crown Joe Canning as the next GOAT, but the truth is that Galway haven't been successful enough. If he was on a better team and winning all Irelands people would be glad to be alive to witness the greatest hurler of all time.

It's very hard to compare hurlers from different eras and not very meaningful. But of Henry's era, he was certainly one of the very best. I'd probably think of him, Tommy Walsh, JJ delaney, eoin kelly, Ken McGrath and Joe Canning as the ones who were that bit better than everyone else. But I find it hard to say who was actually best.
And compared to TJ - I think Henry was better, but TJ is more important because he's on an inferior team.

galwaylad14

blue note wrote: »

It's refreshing to see a thread like this. For years you'd be lynched on forums if you said anything that suggested in any way that shefflin wasn't the best of his generation. You could compare him to past greats like christy ring or John Keane, but any comparison to his modern peers was an insult to him and an admission of hurling ignorance in many people's eyes.

I'm sure it's the same with every generation though. I think people said the same of DJ in the 90s etc. The media looked like they wanted to crown Joe Canning as the next GOAT, but the truth is that Galway haven't been successful enough. If he was on a better team and winning all Irelands people would be glad to be alive to witness the greatest hurler of all time.

It's very hard to compare hurlers from different eras and not very meaningful. But of Henry's era, he was certainly one of the very best. I'd probably think of him, Tommy Walsh, JJ delaney, eoin kelly, Ken McGrath and Joe Canning as the ones who were that bit better than everyone else. But I find it hard to say who was actually best.
And compared to TJ - I think Henry was better, but TJ is more important because he's on an inferior team.

Couldn't agree more with this post. The number one reason Canning isn't rated higher than he is is down to the team he plays on, not his own performances. His performances have been outstanding over his career with Galway. Just look back at those games and I'd say in at least 50% of the games he's our top contributer in terms of scores from play, and that's not to even mention all his other qualities.

The stick he gets is outrageous at times both from Galway and opposition fans.

blue note

galwaylad14 wrote: »

Couldn't agree more with this post. The number one reason Canning isn't rated higher than he is is down to the team he plays on, not his own performances. .

The best example of this is probably Liam Watson in my opinion. Some casual hurling fans won't even have heard of him, most would say he's so good he'd have been on he Kilkenny squad, maybe even team! In truth, I wouldn't be surprised if he'd have won a HOTY and multiple all stars had he played on that Kilkenny team.

And if shefflin had played for Antrim - he'd be lucky to finish his career with a couple of all star nominations.

Agus

galwaylad14 wrote: »

I'm not sure what the three counties that actually don't promote hurling at all are but being realistic here, Longford, Louth, Leitrim, Sligo, Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh and Tyrone don't put a whole lot more into hurling than Kilkenny put into football. Yet some of them have had virtually no success at football in their history.

It's very lazy to say they're only that good at hurling becuase they don't play football. Of course it's a bit of a help, I don't doubt that we'd have had more success over the years if there was no football in the county becuase I'm sure some of our great footballers would have been great hurlers too had they played that game instead. But even allowing for that Kilkenny still have to be doing a lot of stuff better than everyone else in terms of coaching and developing their players.

Looking at the counties you name, all of them actually have had significant football success, or have very small playing pools to draw from, or have much more serious competition from other sports than Kilkenny do. There's also the fact that overall football is popular in far more counties than hurling is.

Of course the dominant status of hurling in Kilkenny isn't the only reason for the county team's success, but it's a big help.

Tombo2001

blue note wrote: »

The best example of this is probably Liam Watson in my opinion. Some casual hurling fans won't even have heard of him, most would say he's so good he'd have been on he Kilkenny squad, maybe even team! In truth, I wouldn't be surprised if he'd have won a HOTY and multiple all stars had he played on that Kilkenny team.

And if shefflin had played for Antrim - he'd be lucky to finish his career with a couple of all star nominations.

Its a very good point but the unfortunate thing is that how good a player appears if quite dependant on the players around him and how good the manager is. If you judge Messi on his Barcelona career he is arguably the best footballer ever. If you judge him on his Argentina, then he is definitely not.

GAA has so many outstanding players on the lesser teams that arguably never reached their full potential. We just don't know how good they could have been if they'd been with a Kilkenny or Tipp. That's probably the main reason why its such a pity the railway cup is gone. Objectively, I'd much rather have a strong railway cup than the aussie rules stuff.

Tombo2001

Agus wrote: »

Looking at the counties you name, all of them actually have had significant football success, or have very small playing pools to draw from, or have much more serious competition from other sports than Kilkenny do. There's also the fact that overall football is popular in far more counties than hurling is.

Of course the dominant status of hurling in Kilkenny isn't the only reason for the county team's success, but it's a big help.

That's stretching it a bit......Donegal and Tyrone have had some significant success, but they also have far larger populations than Kilkenny.....Maybe Cavan 60 years ago......but the point is well made; none of them put any big effort into hurling and they could. Much more competition from other sports? Like what?

The other point about Kilkenny is that Handball is very popular there, probably more than any other county. Its a complimentary sport to Hurling, hand eye coordination and so on; the likes of DJ was very good at both. Kilkenny is the most successful county in Handball if you look at the All Ireland honours roll.

Agus

Tombo2001 wrote: »

That's stretching it a bit......Donegal and Tyrone have had some significant success, but they also have far larger populations than Kilkenny.....Maybe Cavan 60 years ago......but the point is well made; none of them put any big effort into hurling and they could. Much more competition from other sports? Like what?

The other point about Kilkenny is that Handball is very popular there, probably more than any other county. Its a complimentary sport to Hurling, hand eye coordination and so on; the likes of DJ was very good at both. Kilkenny is the most successful county in Handball if you look at the All Ireland honours roll.

Going through the GAA histories of the various counties named, Donegal, Tyrone, Louth and Cavan all have more than one All-Ireland which presumably counts as "signifcant success" (though Louth and Cavan have not won it in a long time).

Remember that the Northern counties like Tyrone don't have a GAA playing population comparable to their overall population as obviously it's a minority sport among unionists.

Soccer would be number one for a lot of Louth, much of Donegal and Sligo (town). Junior soccer is popular in Kilkenny, but the sport is not a serious competitor to hurling to the same degree it would be in say Dundalk or Drogheda.

Most of the rest of the named counties have much smaller populations than Kilkenny.

Dick phelan

This might sound weird but for me what makes Shefflin a great is not his skill level as such, i'v seen quite a few more skilled hurlers then Shefflin and i'v only been watching the game 20 years, what made him the player he was was his ability to do things in the big games when it was needed, Canning is a great example personally i think skill wise he's better then Shefflin ever was but unlike Shefflin he has failed to produce at times when it was badly needed. In a way i'd compare Shefflin to Roy Keane, skill wise there's better then him but few had his mentality and will to win.

Swamp_Cat

nice_guy80 wrote: »

TJ is still improving if you ask me.

Joe doesn't have enough good players around him on the galway team.

Comment is looking prophetic now in 2019 concerning TJ to say the least when looking back at his club campaign & his incredible, consistently brilliant performances in the IC Championship. Before the final he was nearly the only name mentioned, other than to comment on P. Horgan's form(unreal) & S.C.'s goal+ a game & increasing leadership role.
Now, TJ has another disproportionately positive impact during a heavy defeat to a very talented team, backs to forwards, & now he's nearly off the map. Now its brothers Ronan & Paudie, Noel, Brendan M. & of course SC. All superb but should one contest be so influential, especially when TJ had a very good game. I've seen several top 3's since that didn't include him.
Should the winning of the AI weigh so heavily? As stress filled an environment as it may be, I don't believe it should be. Or a LOT less than now. SC's run of goals was a great feat of amazing consistency & skill but does it equal having a big impact in nearly/all of 140 meters throughout entire match after match? Maybe, whst do you think? I have an opinion but just don't know for sure.
Look at John McG's great 2nd min, JJ like hook on Fennelly. Thing of beauty. Well, as a KK fan I hated the result ;-) & it could've been huge moment. ...but I loved it as a so-called 'hurling man/fan'. That hook(even if unsuccessful) was more important than him scoring 3 points. Most of the time.
...that said, not all forwards are meant or able to play that role which doesn't diminish the skill they posses, just one less area of the game in which their impact is felt.
Curious what people think. All worthy candidates & I only ask because of the noticeable change in talk. The other thing people use as a reason SC should get it is being nominated for a potential 4th time & getting robbed by AG. 1st or 10th nomination should not come into the decision. Congrats to whomever wins, there's enough talent for 10 or 20 of these. A "rookie" of the year would be nice, combining League & championship.

kk.man

Henry is the greatest of them all, TJ is certainly up there but not in Shefflins company. Henry at his prime had skill but what separated him was his strength. Henry scored a goal from a penalty in an all Ireland final which seems to be a yardstick to some who judge players at this level.
They are many other attributes I would give Sheflin over Reid.

MfMan

kk.man wrote: »

Henry is the greatest of them all, TJ is certainly up there but not in Shefflins company. Henry at his prime had skill but what separated him was his strength. Henry scored a goal from a penalty in an all Ireland final which seems to be a yardstick to some who judge players at this level.
They are many other attributes I would give Sheflin over Reid.

He eschewed a chance to score another.

conor05

How does a small tiny parish Ballyhale in South Kilkenny produce hurlers like Shefflin, TJ Reid, Fennellys and a host of other class hurlers?

Decades of good hurlers come from there.

When you sit back and think about it is phenomenal really.

Tell me how

conor05 wrote: »

How does a small tiny parish Ballyhale in South Kilkenny produce hurlers like Shefflin, TJ Reid, Fennellys and a host of other class hurlers?

Decades of good hurlers come from there.

When you sit back and think about it is phenomenal really.

Success breeds success. There's probably a 9 or ten year old lad running around the back of the goals trying to puck balls back to TJ as he practices frees. In 15 years time, his name could be mentioned in the same way because he saw success, saw the effort it took, saw the respect it earned, the fun that was had in doing it and so wanted to repeat it from that early age.

The idea of this is why I love the community spirit of the GAA and hope it long continues.

Seadin

TJ wouldnt lace Shefflins boots. I personally thought DJ carey was one of the best hurlers to come out of Kilkenny. He had it all and his skill level was miles ahead of Shefflin and TJ. He had speed skill vision lovely hurler and never saw him getting involved in off the ball stuff. He was super. One of the best i have seen. Shefflin was good but i think he wasnt as dangerous as DJ especially when going for goals.

I've never seen a hurler come out of a schemozzle with the sliotar as often as TJ does. I'd love to see the stats on it.

Gentleman Off The Pitch

Seadin wrote: »

TJ wouldnt lace Shefflins boots. I personally thought DJ carey was one of the best hurlers to come out of Kilkenny. He had it all and his skill level was miles ahead of Shefflin and TJ. He had speed skill vision lovely hurler and never saw him getting involved in off the ball stuff. He was super. One of the best i have seen. Shefflin was good but i think he wasnt as dangerous as DJ especially when going for goals.

Very dismissive comment, the fact that the Reid vs Shefflin discussion has been going on for a few years now shows that many people think that Reid is as least as good as Shefflin.
Personally I think that Reid is somewhat underrated by many, and is often judged solely as a forward whereas he is much more than that.

I'd love the see a breakdown of his stats for possessions won, scores set up, fouls against etc. when compared to the rest of the top players in the Championship. I'd imagine that not only was he the top scorer but that he would come out near the top in a lot of other areas too

I'd agree however that DJ was the most naturally gifted of the three and probably was before his time. Imagine if he came onto the Kilkenny scene at 18 years of age in 1998 rather than 1988, with the quality of the team around him and the improvement in training approaches that occurred around the mid 00s

MfMan

Seadin wrote: »

TJ wouldnt lace Shefflins boots. I personally thought DJ carey was one of the best hurlers to come out of Kilkenny. He had it all and his skill level was miles ahead of Shefflin and TJ. He had speed skill vision lovely hurler and never saw him getting involved in off the ball stuff. He was super. One of the best i have seen. Shefflin was good but i think he wasnt as dangerous as DJ especially when going for goals.

In a fit of revisionism I agree about Carey; at his best he was deadly dangerous. In fairness to Reid, as good as Shefflin undoubtedly was he seldom produced performances like Reid's v. Galway this year in Nowlan park.

Of course, Canning uber alles!

Sarsfields would be Galway's equivalent of Ballyhale; produced tons of great players from a small rural parish.

Mantis Toboggan

I'd have TJ ahead i think, certainly as a defender i'd prefer to mark Shefflin as marking TJ would be a nightmare. TJ's ball winning ability is superb, his work rate, scoring ability, vision and skill make him that bit more dangerous, one of Shefflins best traits which rarely gets mentioned was his decision making, almost always made the right play.

As good as they are though I think from a scoring perspective and especially ball in hand Seamie Callanan is better than both.

Swamp_Cat

Tombo2001 wrote: »

That's stretching it a bit......Donegal and Tyrone have had some significant success, but they also have far larger populations than Kilkenny.....Maybe Cavan 60 years ago......but the point is well made; none of them put any big effort into hurling and they could. Much more competition from other sports? Like what?

The other point about Kilkenny is that Handball is very popular there, probably more than any other county. Its a complimentary sport to Hurling, hand eye coordination and so on; the likes of DJ was very good at both. Kilkenny is the most successful county in Handball if you look at the All Ireland honours roll.

Definitely believe that the popularity of Handball in KK & the availability of facilities, old & new is an important contributor. DJ is known for it but many others play for fun or hand-eye coordination practice, etc., including a current star w/amazing first touch, DJ's cousin R. Hogan who I know has at the least a minor AI win & maybe a world title as well(not sure). If he'd continued as an adult he likely would have achieved more. Maybe not as much as DJ but who knows.