Dublin 9th most congested city of 200

patrickbrophy18

I amn't at all surprised that Dublin has been ranked as the "9th most congested city of 200". To begin with, the original completion date of both Metro North and DART Underground has come and gone without a shred of construction between them. While the new concourse at Pearse was developed in anticipation for DART Underground, it is merely another entrance to the station at present. Aside from that, not even a millimeter of tunnel boring was carried out. Moreover, the current Minister for Transport, Paschal Donohoe decided not to renew the original planning application for DART Underground foregoing the €40 million that was spent on it to date. Now, we could be waiting years before the first millimeter of tunnel boring begins never-mind Metro North. So, two of the most important projects aimed at relieving Dublin City's congestion have been put off indefinitely.

Then, there is the ever increasing number of journey's on the M50 which has far surpassed the amount taken at the height of the boom. It may be a good 6 or more miles from the Fair City. However, if anything, it is certainly a knock-on effect from the abysmally coordinated public transportation that is currently operational in Dublin generally. With the major plans being drawn up for Cherrywood and Carrickmines, the M50 will be riddled with tailbacks which may ultimately require upgrading this section to 3 lanes. We need to take a more holistic approach to town planning and come up with a public transport system that is evenly distributed to cover as much of Dublin as possible.

To begin with, we need to introduce limited stop (express) orbital bus services which call at major centers. We should look to the DART to get a better idea of how one of these express routes could operate as the current orbital routes which are currently on offer by Dublin Bus take too many stops and meander through too many housing estates. For example, the 75 bus takes 85 minutes to get from Dun Laoghaire to Tallaght. If a DART journey was operating in that general direction, it probably have the following stops (inclusive of those at both ends) and no level crossings:

• Dun Laoghaire
  (3 minutes)
• Deansgrange
  (3 minutes)
• Sandyford/Stillorgan
  (2 minutes)
• Dundrum
  (2 minutes)
• Nutgrove
  (3 minutes)
• Butterfield
  (2 minutes)
• Dodder Valley
  (2 minutes)
• Firhouse
  (3 minutes)
• Tallaght
  (2 minutes)
• Fettercairn (Extension based on success)
  (2 minutes)
• Citywest Business Campus (Extension based on success)
  (3 minutes)
• Aungierstown (Extension based on success)
  (3 minutes)
• Adamstown (Extension based on success)
  (3 minutes)
• Lucan (Extension based on success)
  (3 minutes)
• Coolmine (Extension based on success)
  (4 minutes)
• Blanchardstown (Extension based on success)
  (4 minutes)
• Ballycoolin (Extension based on success)

The journey length (x minutes) is a rough estimate based on time distances between current DART stops. The grand total would be 44 minutes (including extensions based on success), just over half that of the current 75 journey length. While purely hypothetical, I can definitely see infrastructure like it taking huge numbers of cars off the road including those going into Dublin Center. Again, speed is key in making public transport an attractive alternative to the car. This is just a thought.

newacc2015

monument wrote: »

Transport and other solutions are often practically the same for Dublin, Cork, Galway, and Limerick... so, what exactly is the big deal about calling them all cities?

Dublin is not 40% of the population of Ireland -- the Greater Dublin Area is not Dublin.

Dublin gets less than its fair share but there's little political openness about this and there's a lot of mostly unchanged denial... in this kind of setting, what do you think calling other cities glorified towns achieves?

IMO it ridiculous to throw a massive city in with cities that are a fraction of the size of some Dublin suburb, as "sure they all need more public transport". Does the 9th most congested city in the world need more public transport over Limerick? Instead, the SD have basically chosen not to commit to anything in Dublin. If you have no targets, there is nothing to work towards and nothing to be accountable towards.

A lot of the GDA would commute to Dublin City for work, education, recreation etc. Maynooth may not be in Dublin, but a lot of their residents would commute to Dublin. Do you ignore them when looking at transport for Dublin?

IMO a city of 24k people is not in any way comparable with a city of 1.2million people with a metro area of 1.8 million people. Lets stop pretending all cities are of equal importance in Ireland.

Chris_5339762

For me I start work early to beat the traffic. Leave at 645am, in work at 710am. About 25 minutes.

By bus, I'd have to get into O'Connell Street and then take the Luas from there. Probably a 15b.

That would be a 10 minute walk to the bus-stop, probably a 45 minute bus, then a 15 minute Luas. Not a chance.

Pete_Cavan

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

It takes me 20 minutes (max) to drive to work. If I took public "transport" it would take approx. 90 minutes - and that's assuming minimum waiting time between the various different buses I would have to take.

I don't sit in traffic because I like it. There is no reasonable alternative.

I both live and work on the Northside of Dublin it shouldn't be that difficult.

Right so your commute is actually easier by car than by public transport, what relevance does that have to my post?

I was pointing out that, in my experience, the "hundreds of thousands sitting in traffic jams every day and suffering a poor quality of life as a result" want increased road capacity rather than large scale public transport like DU and MN (as mentioned in the OP). It would be great if news that Dublin is more congested than LA, Beijing and Rio would shift public opinion in support of those projects but unfortunately it does not work like that here. Most people want more investment in roads to deal with the problem despite, as another post put it, "one of the prime rules about transport is that traffic expands to fill available roads, meaning that the only real solution to congestion is to invest in mass transport".

There are plenty of places which do not justify direct public transport links. If you live in Donaghmede and work in Santry (to pick two random places on the northside), car will be your best option for getting to work. There are plenty of other similar commutes for which car will be the best option, it still doesnt take away from the need for large scale public transport elsewhere.

thomasj

Fair point that areas like donaghmede do not have direct links to the airport but fact is at least 3 major corridors in Dublin such as navan road, malahide road and finglas road do not have direct links to Dublin airport.

Seaswimmer

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Right so your commute is actually easier by car than by public transport, what relevance does that have to my post?

I was pointing out that, in my experience, the "hundreds of thousands sitting in traffic jams every day and suffering a poor quality of life as a result" want increased road capacity rather than large scale public transport like DU and MN (as mentioned in the OP). It would be great if news that Dublin is more congested than LA, Beijing and Rio would shift public opinion in support of those projects but unfortunately it does not work like that here. Most people want more investment in roads to deal with the problem despite, as another post put it, "one of the prime rules about transport is that traffic expands to fill available roads, meaning that the only real solution to congestion is to invest in mass transport".

There are plenty of places which do not justify direct public transport links. If you live in Donaghmede and work in Santry (to pick two random places on the northside), car will be your best option for getting to work. There are plenty of other similar commutes for which car will be the best option, it still doesnt take away from the need for large scale public transport elsewhere.

Well for trip of under 5 miles (7.6km) I would think that bike (pedal, motor, moped) would be your best option. You could probably run it in 40 minutes if you were that way inclined!!!

monument

newacc2015 wrote: »

IMO it ridiculous to throw a massive city in with cities that are a fraction of the size of some Dublin suburb, as "sure they all need more public transport".

Yes, Irish cities all need more public transport, and while only Dublin needs the likes of Dart Underground or a metro line or two, many of the solutions from trams to buses to cycling can be used across Irish cities.

newacc2015 wrote: »

Does the 9th most congested city in the world need more public transport over Limerick?

Yes, Dublin clearly needs public transport more than Limerick. Has anybody said otherwise?

newacc2015 wrote: »

Instead, the SD have basically chosen not to commit to anything in Dublin. If you have no targets, there is nothing to work towards and nothing to be accountable towards.

As manifestos go, they seem fairly committed to Dart Underground.

They overall promised not to make a load of promises to buy off the election... In such a context it would be hard for a brand new and very small party to be giving target dates!

newacc2015 wrote: »

A lot of the GDA would commute to Dublin City for work, education, recreation etc. Maynooth may not be in Dublin, but a lot of their residents would commute to Dublin. Do you ignore them when looking at transport for Dublin?

Who said to ignore them? Do you know where the SD TDs are based?

newacc2015 wrote: »

IMO a city of 24k people is not in any way comparable with a city of 1.2million people with a metro area of 1.8 million people.

What city with 24k people??? There is no such area in Ireland recognised as a city.

newacc2015 wrote: »

Lets stop pretending all cities are of equal importance in Ireland.

Where did anybody hint at or imply that all cities are of equal importance in Ireland? Please do quote where that happened.

newacc2015

monument wrote: »

Yes, Irish cities all need more public transport, and while only Dublin needs the likes of Dart Underground or a metro line or two, many of the solutions from trams to buses to cycling can be used across Irish cities.

They overall promised not to make a load of promises to buy off the election... In such a context it would be hard for a brand new and very small party to be giving target dates!


What city with 24k people??? There is no such area in Ireland recognised as a city.

Where did anybody hint at or imply that all cities are of equal importance in Ireland? Please do quote where that happened.

Most planners agree that city needs at least 200k people and around 2,500 people per sq kilometer for a tram system to be viable. Galway isnt even half way there and it the third largest city in Ireland. Realistically only Dublin and Cork have the density/population for a tram system.

Even in Leaving Cert business you learn a plan must have objectives and should be measurable. A political manifesto that is filled with broad statements, makes the party unaccountable for failures in the future. The SD have learned from Labours mistakes of having election promises that they failed to achieve and got grilled one.

Actually Kilkenny has only 23k people and Tralee with a whopping 22,200 people wants city status too!

“On population grounds alone, why shouldn’t Tralee be designated a city when Kilkenny is?” he asked.
“The population of Kilkenny is at 23,000 – that of Tralee at the last census was 22,200. It would make a big difference to Tralee from a tourism point of view. People tend to go to cities.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/welcome-to-the-city-of-tralee-population-22-200-1.2558656

If a town or a 'city' of 22,200 people can become a city for a bit more tourism. Cant you see where SD policy of improving transport in 'all cities' is so broad, that is basically futile?

monument

newacc2015 wrote: »

Most planners agree that city needs at least 200k people and around 2,500 people per sq kilometer for a tram system to be viable. Galway isnt even half way there and it the third largest city in Ireland. Realistically only Dublin and Cork have the density/population for a tram system.

Many planners disagree on many points. A Luas route is better than another bypass which will drive bad further planning and more uncontrollable car use.

It's really an argument for another thread.

newacc2015 wrote: »

Even in Leaving Cert business you learn a plan must have objectives and should be measurable. A political manifesto that is filled with broad statements, makes the party unaccountable for failures in the future. The SD have learned from Labours mistakes of having election promises that they failed to achieve and got grilled one.

Leaving Cert business covers manifestos?

newacc2015 wrote: »

Actually Kilkenny has only 23k people and Tralee with a whopping 22,200 people wants city status too!

“On population grounds alone, why shouldn’t Tralee be designated a city when Kilkenny is?” he asked.
“The population of Kilkenny is at 23,000 – that of Tralee at the last census was 22,200. It would make a big difference to Tralee from a tourism point of view. People tend to go to cities.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/welcome-to-the-city-of-tralee-population-22-200-1.2558656

If a town or a 'city' of 22,200 people can become a city for a bit more tourism. Cant you see where SD policy of improving transport in 'all cities' is so broad, that is basically futile?

The current legislation states Kilkenny is a ceremonial city and Tralee is not a city.

Kerry councillors also passed a motion looking for drink driving permits for rural areas: http://m.rte.ie/news/2013/0122/363832-kerry-council-rural-vote/ ...if you think their motion on cities makes their town a city, do you think their other motion means that there's now drink driving permits for rural areas?

Arbiter of Good Taste

thomasj wrote: »

Look at Hilton Dublin city vs Hilton Dublin airport

Hilton Dublin city points people to the options they have to get to the airport by public transport, the 16 or the aircoach

Hilton Dublin airport has to provide a free shuttle bus. There is no way of getting to Dublin airport from there by public transport.

Not sure what your point is. Any airport hotel I've stayed in anywhere in the world relies on either providing a free shuttle bus or you end up having to take a taxi

Arbiter of Good Taste

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Well for trip of under 5 miles (7.6km) I would think that bike (pedal, motor, moped) would be your best option. You could probably run it in 40 minutes if you were that way inclined!!!

That would be fine if we had a safe cycle lane infrastructure. We don't

Seaswimmer

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

That would be fine if we had a safe cycle lane infrastructure. We don't

There is a fair bit of bus lane between Donaghmede and Santry.

While I take your point, the fact is that the perception of danger while cycling and the reality are poles apart. The media is less than helpful and I can understand people being put off by the (mostly) negative comments re cycling.

Statistically Dublin is quite a safe city to cycle in. Whatever you may think of motorists they are at least used to bikes and as cycling numbers increase more of those motorists become part time cyclists. As a year round commuting cyclist I find the vast majority of car/bus/truck drivers to be polite and courteous to me and I rarely have a problem.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Seaswimmer wrote: »

There is a fair bit of bus lane between Donaghmede and Santry.

While I take your point, the fact is that the perception of danger while cycling and the reality are poles apart. The media is less than helpful and I can understand people being put off by the (mostly) negative comments re cycling.

Statistically Dublin is quite a safe city to cycle in. Whatever you may think of motorists they are at least used to bikes and as cycling numbers increase more of those motorists become part time cyclists. As a year round commuting cyclist I find the vast majority of car/bus/truck drivers to be polite and courteous to me and I rarely have a problem.

I think you've actually made my point. A cycle lane is just that, a separate lane for bicycles, not a line down the middle of a bus lane.

thomasj

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Not sure what your point is. Any airport hotel I've stayed in anywhere in the world relies on either providing a free shuttle bus or you end up having to take a taxi

point is hilton dublin airport is right beside dublin airport they shouldnt need to, the public transport options in that area should be there for all to use.

were talking malahide road, howth road, finglas road, navan road. compared to southside options, the public transport options are not there for the northside of dublin.

Seaswimmer

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I think you've actually made my point. A cycle lane is just that, a separate lane for bicycles, not a line down the middle of a bus lane.

Well I don't think we are going to see Dutch style cycling infrastructure in Ireland anytime soon so we have to work with what we have and bus lanes are (mostly) ideal places for cycling and in my experience far superior to a lot of poorly designed cycling lanes.

Carawaystick

thomasj wrote: »

point is hilton dublin airport is right beside dublin airport they shouldnt need to, the public transport options in that area should be there for all to use.

What about the Radisson? Should PT serve that too?

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

What about the Radisson? Should PT serve that too?

Why am I not surprised that your post focusses on minutiae and fails spectacularly to realise the real point which thomasj was making.

He is not specifically talking about hotels - really he shouldn't have mentioned them as they are irrelevant - airport hotels always supply courtesy coaches.

He is actually making the point that there is a complete lack of public transport from large areas across North Dublin to the Airport, the single largest employer in North Dublin.

In terms of Dublin Bus, the Airport is only served by the 16 and 41 along the N1 corridor (and the 33/41b/41c with a walk from the main road) and the 102 to Malahide, Portmarnock and Sutton.

There are no orbital bus services to any of the other major suburbs across north Dublin which is frankly scandalous.

There are several bus routes terminating at Harristown depot (4, 13, 27b, 83 and 83a). Surely some (if not all of them) should actually go to/from the airport, along with the 33a and 33b (instead of Swords)?

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

There are several bus routes terminating at Harristown depot (4, 13, 27b, 83 and 83a). Surely some (if not all of them) should actually go to/from the airport, along with the 33a and 33b (instead of Swords)?

Could DB provide a (free) shuttle from the Harristown depot to the airport?

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Could DB provide a (free) shuttle from the Harristown depot to the airport?

There would have to be either facilities provided at the airport or a staff car for drivers to go to Harristown to break. That's a matter for DB to resolve itself.

But something should be done - this notion of providing no local bus service to/from the Airport except along the N1 corridor is ridiculous.

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

There would have to be either facilities provided at the airport or a staff car for drivers to go to Harristown to break. That's a matter for DB to resolve itself.

What?

The shuttle would circle into the Airport and back out again - why would it stop?

Harristown depot - Terminal two - terminal one - Harristown Depot.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

What?

The shuttle would circle into the Airport and back out again - why would it stop?

Harristown depot - Terminal two - terminal one - Harristown Depot.

Sorry - I thought you meant a staff shuttle for the drivers.

No - absolutely not. No one wants to be taken from an Airport to outside a bus garage to change to another bus. Why in God's name would you not offer a direct service to the other areas?

There is plenty of scope for at least some of the routes mentioned above (and possibly the 140) to operate directly to the Airport.

The only reason they go to Harristown is for internal DB staff rosters.

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

The only reason they go to Harristown is for internal DB staff rosters.

I never new that. I thought the buses were to carry pasengers.

thomasj

My last experience of taking the bus home from the airport had me regretting I hadn't taken a taxi.

It was Wednesday evening and I came home from England. Went out and got a 16. When it had left the airport there was a 17a due at the swords road junction in 8 minutes. I was still hopeful. The 16 got caught in traffic and as we were stopped at the lights we could see the 17a flying around the corner.

As there was a 30 minute wait on the next 17A, I decided to stay on and go get the maynooth train. Again, as the bus was arriving at drumcondra, the train had left with an hour wait on the next. So I went onto dolier Street and go get the 39a.

Again it had arrived, I ran but as I got to the doors, the driver shut them despite knocking on the doors the driver wouldn't look and drove off. 15 minutes for next bus.

I was tired getting off the plane at the airport, it was a long day. You can imagine how I felt at that stage. Next time I will be getting a taxi.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

I never new that. I thought the buses were to carry pasengers.

With respect - who else would be going to Harristown bus depot?

Bar a couple of other warehouses there is nothing else near it.

The only reason that the bus routes start/terminate at Harristown is because that's where the driver break facilities are and where the drivers start/end duties.

Muahahaha

Its mad that routes like the 140 and 4 don't extend into the airport, the Harristown depot is literally in striking distance. An extension of the 140 and 4 routes to the terminals would finally give a good 100,000 people across Dublin direct bus access to the airport, either for working there or for travelling to/from it.

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect - who else would be going to Harristown bus depot?

Bar a couple of other warehouses there is nothing else near it.

The only reason that the bus routes start/terminate at Harristown is because that's where the driver break facilities are and where the drivers start/end duties.

I live on the No 4 route and never knew what or where Harristown was, nor that it was a destination that facilitated the drivers. I suppose that is reasonable given the length of the route but the route ought to be extended to, or rerouted via, the airport since it is so close to Harristown.

How many passengers are typically on the bus after the bus passes the M50 going towards Harristown?

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

I live on the No 4 route and never knew what or where Harristown was, nor that it was a destination that facilitated the drivers. I suppose that is reasonable given the length of the route but the route ought to be extended to, or rerouted via, the airport since it is so close to Harristown.

How many passengers are typically on the bus after the bus passes the M50 going towards Harristown?

Apologies - I thought you did.
Look at google maps here and you'll see where Harristown is precisely (it's in the middle):
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4164427,-6.2788026,1825m/data=!3m1!1e3

Not very many passengers I would suggest - close to zero.

Sam Russell

I looked it up after your post and was surprised it was so close to the airport. It would be a very small detour to go to there, not sure how many passengers would avail of it though. They could try it I suppose.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

I looked it up after your post and was surprised it was so close to the airport. It would be a very small detour to go to there, not sure how many passengers would avail of it though. They could try it I suppose.

I'm finding it difficult to understand how anyone could not see the value or common sense in a network of local bus services linking suburban areas with the single biggest employment location in North Dublin.

That's before you consider air passengers.

markpb

lxflyer wrote:

Not very many passengers I would suggest - close to zero.

There's not even a pretense of that terminus being for passengers. My wife used to work in one of those offices and could not rely on DB to get her to work. She was always traveling against the flow of traffic (outbound in the mornings, inbound in the evenings) so her buses were invariably always late or cancelled to facilitate people traveling with flow.