Car accident, road with no grip

raher1

Hi
Just reading the threads.
I rammed into a car last week. No matter how hard I braked my car wouldn't stop. After crash I noticed the road was recently tarred and it was totally smooth no grip. Can I sue the council for causing the accident. I was forced to attempt liability to avoid a court case. I like to know, who is at fault, my car which the has four new tyres and perfect brakes or road with no grip. I am no happy, car repair is expensive

D Trent

raher1 wrote: »

Hi
Just reading the threads.
I rammed into a car last week. No matter how hard I braked my car wouldn't stop. After crash I noticed the road was recently tarred and it was totally smooth no grip. Can I sue the council for causing the accident. I was forced to attempt liability to avoid a court case. I like to know, who is at fault, my car which the has four new tyres and perfect brakes or road with no grip. I am no happy, car repair is expensive

Even so they will just turn around and say you didn't keep your distance,
Double the two second rule in wet weather and all that yadda

L1011

The other car was clearly able to stop.

invicta

L1011 wrote: »

The other car was clearly able to stop.

Enough said.

Alun

What make were your brand new tyres? Were they by any chance recommended to you by the tyre shop as "what all the taxi drivers use" so they must be good? If so they were probably cheap Chinese tyres commonly known as "ditchfinders" which magically lose all semblance of grip as soon as one drop of water hits the road.

Apologies if not the case, but it crops up a lot on the Motors forum these days.

HeidiHeidi

OP never mentioned the road being wet

Wasn't there a case a good few years ago of someone being killed by a car which skidded on a road undergoing maintenance, so it was without its usual surface? I can't even remember which part of the country it was in, so haven't managed to find any links to it, but I think I remember an enquiry, maybe that might be something for the OP to look at?

But instinct would tell me that you could/should have noticed that the road surface was different and adjusted speed accordingly.....

BowWow

raher1 wrote: »

...I rammed into a car last week....I like to know, who is at fault....

Ans: You!

cjpm

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

OP never mentioned the road being wet

Wasn't there a case a good few years ago of someone being killed by a car which skidded on a road undergoing maintenance, so it was without its usual surface? I can't even remember which part of the country it was in, so haven't managed to find any links to it, but I think I remember an enquiry, maybe that might be something for the OP to look at?

But instinct would tell me that you could/should have noticed that the road surface was different and adjusted speed accordingly.....

That court case was about a school bus that crashed in Meath on a section of road that was being fixed up IIRC

Alun

Alun wrote: »

What make were your brand new tyres? Were they by any chance recommended to you by the tyre shop as "what all the taxi drivers use" so they must be good? If so they were probably cheap Chinese tyres commonly known as "ditchfinders" which magically lose all semblance of grip as soon as one drop of water hits the road.

Apologies if not the case, but it crops up a lot on the Motors forum these days.

I suspect that those "ditchfinders" also have difficulty with the perfectly smooth sub-surface of unfinished roads as well as they rely on the rough stone in the road for grip.

c_meth

cjpm wrote: »

That court case was about a school bus that crashed in Meath on a section of road that was being fixed up IIRC

I think the case referred to is this one:
http://m.independent.ie/woman/true-life-why-i-must-find-what-caused-my-sineads-death-26620971.html

Wesser

The council are not responsible that you failed to stop. You failed to stop, you were going too fast to stop. If you sue the council they have to pay you.... Tax payers money which would otherwise fund public services. It's disgraceful that people think they can sue someone else Because they failed to stop.

artanevilla

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

OP never mentioned the road being wet

He's in Ireland, the road was wet.

Shannon757

Any chance the OP's brakes locked?

Shannon757

Shannon757 wrote: »

Any chance the OP's brakes locked?

Sounds quite likely, unfortunate if the car he hit has ABS!

gctest50

raher1 wrote: »

Hi
Just reading the threads.
I rammed into a car last week. No matter how hard I braked my car wouldn't stop. After crash I noticed the road was recently tarred and it was totally smooth no grip. Can I sue the council for causing the accident. I was forced to attempt liability to avoid a court case. I like to know, who is at fault, my car which the has four new tyres and perfect brakes or road with no grip. I am no happy, car repair is expensive

The insurance company could pay out and drag you into court for taking away their defence

gctest50

gctest50 wrote: »

The insurance company could pay out and drag you into court for taking away their defence

Generally, they don't accept claims for liability made immediately after a crash as they understand that people are stressed and sometimes threatened in the immediate aftermath of a collision. If they can't decide who is to blame they usually go for a "knock for knock" where they'll pay for the repairs to the other vehicle and you lose your no claims bonus. Don't forget it's a no claims bonus, not a no blames bonus.

Time to buy a crash-cam!

Sam Russell

Mod: Thread moved from Infrastructure

CelticRambler

raher1 wrote: »

After crash I noticed the road was recently tarred and it was totally smooth no grip.

There's your liability. As a driver, you're required to notice the condition of the road surface before you crash and adjust your speed/distance accordingly.

rhino1

Who is responsible in the case of a road surface being seriously defective ,for instance a very large pothole causing a crash?

mickdw

If road works are ongoing or the road does not have it's finished surface and markings in place, the area should be clearly signposted as having road works under way.
Anything less than the required signage will put liability right into the hands of the council or contractor involved.
much as I think the op is rather crazy and doesn't appear to grasp the basics of driving, if works are ongoing they could well have a case.

JohnBoy26

CelticRambler wrote: »

There's your liability. As a driver, you're required to notice the condition of the road surface before you crash and adjust your speed/distance accordingly.

What kind of a statement is that!

savagethegoat

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

What kind of a statement is that!

the correct statement

savagethegoat

savagethegoat wrote: »

the correct statement

I think he's joking that it sounds more like making an informed decision to crash.

.. I laughed!

CelticRambler

Ehhhh, no ... don't think I'm joking. Not unless my various Rules of the Road books are all comic-books, seeing as they all make the same point: as the driver of a motor vehicle, it is your responsibility to constantly be aware of the physical properties of the road surface ahead of you.

It doesn't really matter if it's black ice, shiny tar or standing water - if you make a decision to drive on/through it, don't blame your tyres or the council when you can't stop within the distance available.

Going back to the OP's first sentence, I'm also wondering if "no matter how hard I braked" indicates that the OP stamped on the pedal several times, and if so, and if he hs ABS, does he know that that's not the way to get the car to stop?

CelticRambler

CelticRambler wrote: »

Ehhhh, no ... don't think I'm joking.

Fair enough (although I maintain that if you were joking, i would have found it funny).

Atlantic Dawn

What brand were your tyres so to speak?

coolisin

Sorry for your trouble OP but after being bitten by "ditch finders" once you need to always adjust your driving to suit them!

That is assuming your car had them.
If not does your car have abs.
Does your car have extra braking power!!

Does the car you hit?

Not that it matters as the car you hit had stopped.

Very little the council can be found guilty for either way.
I'm sorry.

Markcheese

rhino1 wrote:

Who is responsible in the case of a road surface being seriously defective ,for instance a very large pothole causing a crash?

A pothole large or small cant cause a crash.. ( doesnt move ,or jump out at you,)
A car traveling at "too" high a speed for the road conditions can ...
Although as far as I know a badly repaired pot hole can cause a crash ..

Roanmore

Markcheese wrote: »

A pothole large or small cant cause a crash.. ( doesnt move ,or jump out at you,)
A car traveling at "too" high a speed for the road conditions can ...
Although as far as I know a badly repaired pot hole can cause a crash ..

Large pothole out my road. I've lost count the amount of times people see it late and go over to the other side of the road to avoid it even if a car is coming against them and forcing the opposite car to brake

anothernight

Markcheese wrote: »

A pothole large or small cant cause a crash.. ( doesnt move ,or jump out at you,)
A car traveling at "too" high a speed for the road conditions can ...
Although as far as I know a badly repaired pot hole can cause a crash ..

Surely a badly repaired pothole doesn't move or jump out at you?

Markcheese

AlanG wrote:

With two ministers in the area it is amazing that the electrification of the line to Balbriggan seems to be getting prioritized over improvements to the Maynooth service. Dublin 15 trains are packed for far longer periods than Norther commuter line trains - you cannot get a seat on our line from 4:30pm on wards most days but the Malahide line is rarely full and they have a far more frequent service. In addition far more northern commuter trains go from the south side so don't involve a change at Connolly for most users. It now looks like the shelving of Dart underground will mean the Maynooth line will stay as an under served afterthought for many years to come. The upcoming election is our chance to get this issue raised. having lived along both lines it is amazing how IR keep prioritising the northern route above the western lines. They have not even completed the signalling changes to allow more frequency through Tara Street which was supposed to allow more maynooth trains into Pearse.

anothernight wrote:

Surely a badly repaired pothole doesn't move or jump out at you?

Nope - but a badly maintained road full of potholes is the drivers problem... apparently a badly repaired pothole causing an accident can be the fault of the repairer ...

anothernight

Markcheese wrote: »

Nope - but a badly maintained road full of potholes is the drivers problem... apparently a badly repaired pothole causing an accident can be the fault of the repairer ...

It was more of a tongue-in-cheek comment. Should've used a smiley I guess!

swarlb

Instead of asking the opinion of people on here, why not simply sue the council (or whoever)... you'll get your an answer soon enough then. let us know how you get on, it might be of some help to people in the future who..
1. Crash into the back of other cars...
2. Crash cars in general...

raher1

Wesser wrote: »

The council are not responsible that you failed to stop. You failed to stop, you were going too fast to stop. If you sue the council they have to pay you.... Tax payers money which would otherwise fund public services. It's disgraceful that people think they can sue someone else Because they failed to stop.

I actually just moved off, going around ten miles a hour. I braked and no grip, abs couldn't find traction

Cuddlesworth

raher1 wrote: »

I actually just moved off, going around ten miles a hour. I braked and no grip, abs couldn't find traction

Nice timeline on a response. What tyres do you have, make and model?

Suing the council is unlikely. Any number of factors could have lead to your crashing including morning frost, a diesel or oil spill, faulty tyres or ABS and driver error. You would realistically need to prove that the council was aware of a issue with the road surface and chose to do nothing about it.

ironclaw

I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the OP. There are three sections of road that I'm pretty suspicious of. First and foremost is the N11 outside RTE. Its special tarmac designed to be low noise. As a result, it has very little grip to keep rumble down even less in the wet. Next up, the M11 at the M50 interchange. That road holds water like the Shannon in flood and its never been topped. The surface isn't finished and never will be. Its extremely smooth and I've seen many a car skid into the back of another at rush hour. Lastly, the N11 Bray South turn off was recently surfaced and its like glass when wet. I thought it was suspiciously smooth so one night when it was damp and totally clear I gave it a hard brake on the off ramp and a sharp turn in at the apex. Best of luck holding it is all I'll say and my car has premium rubber and pads on it. I got the car pretty much Sebastian Loeb sideways at less than 30km/h.

There is cheap tarmac in use on Irish roads but the best of luck trying to prove it.

biko

raher1 wrote: »

I actually just moved off, going around ten miles a hour. I braked and no grip, abs couldn't find traction

You've been asked several times what brand tyres you had on.

kirving

I think that the Newlands cross flyover uses the same kind of low-noise tarmac. I haven't tried hard braking on it since it's always busy, but I would hazard a guess that the lower-noise stuff would also have less grip. I'd be interested to hear an answer at any rate, and happy to be proved wrong.

Even if you could prove through an FoI request that an engineering decision was made to use a quieter surface despite its lower grip, it would still have to be below an actual lower limit value for grip (which I doubt even exists in Ireland).

As an separate example, I emailed Limerick CoCo last night at 8pm about a pothole. By 8am this morning they were out fixing it. Hard to argue with that for service.

ironclaw

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I think that the Newlands cross flyover uses the same kind of low-noise tarmac.

I travel this daily and I'd agree with you. I also might be mad, but I think the tarmac is 'slipping' down the slope on the City bound side. Often just after cresting the slope and the car is freewheeling, there is a judder from the road all the way until its flat again. Almost feels like bumps. Can't explain it and I could be mad, but it happens nigh every day and its the only place it occurs. I original thought it was my tyres or clutch on the way out.

Also, who ever put an on ramp at the base of that hill should be shot. Completely undid the point of the bridge in the first place and regularly stops lane one. Why is it even necessary? Traffic is light from that direction and should be directed up to the roundabout and fed onto the M50 / Long Mile from there.

07Lapierre

raher1 wrote: »

I actually just moved off, going around ten miles a hour. I braked and no grip, abs couldn't find traction

At 10 miles per hour??? ABS won't activate at such a low speed.

colm_mcm

Of course it would, if the wheels were locking. You ever driven on ice?

TheQuietFella

BowWow wrote: »

Ans: You!

Isn't it always someone else's fault!!!

07Lapierre

colm_mcm wrote: »

Of course it would, if the wheels were locking. You ever driven on ice?

Yes...usually faster then 10mph too, but where did the OP mention Ice? Fresh tar and 10mph was mentioned, but no ice.

bear1

There isn't a generic speed that needs to be reached for the ABS to kick in.
ABS is activated if there is an impending lock up of the wheels.
I haven't seen it mentioned but what car do you have? Does it have ABS?

cruizer101

From some googling it would appear that maybe ABS does not work under certain speeds.
According to http://www.carbibles.com/brake_bible_pg2.html On a lot of vehicles, the ABS is useless much below about 10mph. Now I know carbibles is not a manufacturer saying this as fact but it is run by a knowledgeable guy.

Also according to the first post here http://forum.motorcycle-usa.com/default.aspx?f=22&m=314718 . I don't fully understand what he was saying but I think it is implying that at such low speeds given the amount of time the wheel is unbraked is so small and the force that would cause the wheel to rotate is so small that it tends to more or less lock up anyway.

Will have to have a go later on a clear road.

07Lapierre

bear1 wrote: »

There isn't a generic speed that needs to be reached for the ABS to kick in.
ABS is activated if there is an impending lock up of the wheels.
I haven't seen it mentioned but what car do you have? Does it have ABS?

Impending lock up? At 10mph?? Next time there is ice on the road I'm going to try this....ill be amazed if the ABS kicks in, even on ice.

colm_mcm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Yes...usually faster then 10mph too, but where did the OP mention Ice? Fresh tar and 10mph was mentioned, but no ice.

The cars not gonna know whether it's ice or just a slippy road.

I could be totally wrong here, but I remember about 15 years ago the abs in my 146 kicking in at a really low speed when I was at a junction. Never had a car with it before and it freaked me out.

07Lapierre

colm_mcm wrote: »

The cars not gonna know whether it's ice or just a slippy road.

I could be totally wrong here, but I remember about 15 years ago the abs in my 146 kicking in at a really low speed when I was at a junction. Never had a car with it before and it freaked me out.

I'm not disputing that ABS will kick in at low speeds, but I'm talking about 20 or 30mph.

10mph is not low speed...it's very,very, very low speed.

colm_mcm

I seriously doubt the OP was actually doing 10mph. Not saying he's lying, more that he's underestimating how fast he was going.

07Lapierre

Agree...I doubt the road surface had anything to do with the incident.

It's human nature. in my line of work, we have to notify people of speeding fines...they always deny travelling at the speed on the ticket! Same when cars are damaged..."it's only a scratch" etc. Etc.

kirving

ABS on every car will react differently to a situation. On complete ice, my car tends to try ABS first if the wheels lock, and then I think realises via the accelerometer that fully locking the wheels is a better course of action when there is literally zero grip. How it works will depend on the tyres and car setup though