The Embassy Cup, shotgun target shooting

clivej

Don't try this at home :rolleyes::rolleyes:
It's only for young people ;)

Embassy Cup shot in the UK
Gun: Shotgun, pump-action, or semi-auto
Target: 2 x IPSC full size
Sights: any
Positions = standing unsupported, sitting, kneeling, prone
Ready position: parallel
Course of fire: 24 shots

Practice 1 (25m): start loaded with minimum 4 rounds
1 exposure of 20 seconds
2 rounds on each target, standing unsupported
reload with minimum of 4 rounds
2 rounds on each target, prone

Practice 2 (20m): start loaded with minimum 4 rounds
1 exposure of 20 seconds
2 rounds on each target, standing unsupported
reload with minimum of 4 rounds
2 rounds on each target, sitting

Practice 3 (15m): start loaded with minimum 4 rounds
1 exposure of 20 seconds
2 rounds on each target, standing unsupported
reload with minimum of 4 rounds
2 rounds on each target, kneeling

Easy or what?? :eek::eek:

Vegeta

Shooting a shotgun prone, as someone who doesn't particularly like recoil, I'm puckering thinking about that one.

Cass

Jaysus, i'm out of breath reading that. Not a sport for a fat guy

It looks like great craic and using a semi auto recoil would be minimal. Pity stuff like this was not done here. We might have some seriously good comps still going.

Grizzly 45

Actually not too difficult for us with lots of" tactical padding" Try a 3 gun "run and gun " event then you will know your fitness level.
There is actually a demand for it ,lads have been asking about it and it doesnt really require much in equipment,a game gun willl do

Wouldnt be too hard to do as it is [1] static and [2] modify the round count to three
OR if shot unrestricted load three keeping one spare in the weak hand,to be loaded by the shooter after firing the first shot.[Learn to speed load] Only problem is really the ammo..Slugs. Or change the targets to somthing shot gunnable, like clays at different distances to be shot in sequence.

Hello FCP??.....

Rimfire Shooter

Never gonna happen here.

They'd be afraid we'd be having too much FUN !

Tackleberry.

IPSC would be great if it came back, but I would like to try this shotgun comp.

clivej

Remember you can use any sight. I did try this Embassy Cup but I'm just too old now for jumping around.

This is what I'm using in the UK for other target shooting comps. out to 200y
With an adjustable strap on the front slide to help rack the action and when I wear gloves.

hexosan

What stock is that Clive

cookimonster

What choke & ammo combination do you use for the 200 targets

clivej

hexosan wrote: »

What stock is that Clive

Blackhawk thumb-hole

http://blackhawk.com/Products/Stocks-Long-Gun-Accessories/Stocks/Shotgun/Knoxx%C2%AE-Talon-Thumbhole-Stock.aspx

clivej

cookimonster wrote: »

What choke & ammo combination do you use for the 200 targets

No choke on that shotgun and using standard slugs. Not shot it in that comp. yet, but will do this May

turismo2142

I recall there being talk of introducing it during nasrpc events since the committee change recently. Anyone else hear that?

clivej

turismo2142 wrote: »

I recall there being talk of introducing it during nasrpc events since the committee change recently. Anyone else hear that?

Not much comes out from the new committee, No I haven't heard that news.

turismo2142

clivej wrote: »

Not much comes out from the new committee, No I haven't heard that news.

It was mentioned to me in passing by some enthusiastic MTSC members.

If I thought I could shoot even a handful of half decently attended competitions per year I'd stick my beretta semi on a restricted cert and have some fun.

I'd love to know how many shotguns in the country are on restricted Certs and what kinds of "good and sufficient reasons" were acceptable to the relevant CSs.

A well attended embassy cup discipline would be great.

turismo2142

Thought I'd revive this old post with a small update.

This discipline is now available (with slight modifications) in Fermoy Rifle club on the lower gallery range. We will cater for it at any club shoot (and NASRPC shoot subject to NASRPC) as a side event if there's a demand for it.

clivej

turismo2142 wrote: »

It was mentioned to me in passing by some enthusiastic MTSC members.

If I thought I could shoot even a handful of half decently attended competitions per year I'd stick my beretta semi on a restricted cert and have some fun.

I'd love to know how many shotguns in the country are on restricted Certs and what kinds of "good and sufficient reasons" were acceptable to the relevant CSs.

A well attended embassy cup discipline would be great.

and what kinds of "good and sufficient reasons

"Embassy Cup Shotgun Target shooting" and vermin shooting are two very good reasons to get a restricted shotgun license.

I put down "Target" shooting for the reason for both my shotguns.

To shoot the Embassy Cup you will need a magazine that will hold at least 4 shells (or 3 and 1 in the chamber). For T&P1 & Multi-Target competitions the mag must hold 6 shells (or 5 and 1 in the chamber). And must have a working safety.

The difference in the competitions shot here is that 30 seconds are the time limit in each practice and no prone at 25m

Practice 1 (25m): start loaded with minimum 4 rounds
1 exposure of 30 seconds
2 rounds on each target, standing unsupported
reload with minimum of 4 rounds
2 rounds on each target, standing supported

clivej

How you do it at 25y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPwxmaz_GEc

clivej

And shotgun target shooting.

Pump Action, Semi-Auto, and Classic shotguns in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZqqaPXfGQ4

turismo2142

I suspect that reloads are being shot by some in those vids given the lack of apparent recoil.

Id like to see that fella lay down on his side and shoot 33g slugs as handy. :-)

Thanks for the vids Clive. Let's hope we can get some interest in this.

clivej

turismo2142 wrote: »

I suspect that reloads are being shot by some in those vids given the lack of apparent recoil.

Id like to see that fella lay down on his side and shoot 33g slugs as handy. :-)

Thanks for the vids Clive. Let's hope we can get some interest in this.

Not reloads I'd say.
I'm using competition slugs made for this type of shooting. The wad is stuck to the back of the slug, so only one hole in the target. £50/100

turismo2142

clivej wrote: »

Not reloads I'd say.
I'm using competition slugs made for this type of shooting. The wad is stuck to the back of the slug, so only one hole in the target. £50/100

You might pm me and let me know where you get them.

Do you bother with rifled chokes Clive? I can't seem to find a definitive view on them. Pointless I would have thought?

Rimfire Shooter

Can someone with an unrestricted licence enter? It'd draw more people if a restricted licence wasn't required I'd say.

clivej

turismo2142 wrote: »

You might pm me and let me know where you get them.

Do you bother with rifled chokes Clive? I can't seem to find a definitive view on them. Pointless I would have thought?

Not rifled chokes, the slugs are rifled to give them a spin.

I'm sourcing a dealer here that said he was getting some of the competition slugs @€;60/100. I'll let you know when I know.

clivej

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

Can someone with an unrestricted licence enter? It'd draw more people if a restricted licence wasn't required I'd say.

Not really.

You'd need the restricted license to load more than the 3 shells (1 in the chamber plus 2 in the magazine) that the unrestricted license allows. And to buy the slugs.

As I said you need a minimum of 4 + 4 to shoot the Embassy Cup and 6 for the other competitions.
ASAIK the Classic shotgun competitions are not shot here.

turismo2142

clivej wrote: »

Not really.

You'd need the restricted license to load more than the 3 shells (1 in the chamber plus 2 in the magazine) that the unrestricted license allows. And to buy the slugs.

As I said you need a minimum of 4 + 4 to shoot the Embassy Cup and 6 for the other competitions.
ASAIK the Classic shotgun competitions are not shot here.

It's the slugs which are the problem really. We could change the course of fire a bit to facilitate 2+1 but without the restricted slugs there's nothing you could do with an unrestricted shotgun. It's a shame, but that's it I'm afraid

Grizzly 45

Few thoughts on this.
At the moment we are only shooting this at Fermoy and MTSC . Would it be plausible to get[ if you know your CS on first name terms no doubt] a VERY restricted liscense to those two ranges for shooting these competitions on an unrestricted liscense? IOW you can "unplug" your 3 shot down on the range to whatever round count needed,shoot the comp,plug it and go home legally?That would also entitle you to buy the slugs as well.It is within a Cs power to do this and as such it is not a new restricted liscense,but a "derogation"[Is that the right word?] on an existing liscense?
Thinking softly,softly here,rather than a mass of people wanting restricted liscenses all of a sudden,and scaring the living bejaysus out of the PTB again..Give something,get something.

At worst,it could be shot 3 plus 1 starting plus a 1 round speed reload after the first shot within the time frame.With a bit of practise.
Ammo.There is no mention of "frangible ammunition" in the act as being restricted. This can be very high tech compressed bismuth, or shot,usually used for blowing off door hinges in raids,but it has no over penetration capability, or in the crudest form shotgun pellets held together by wax.They both break up on impact and deliver their pellets in a cluster.A slug OTOH doesn't break up,and there is no definition in law as to what exactly a shotgun slug is either.

Classic shotgun..What is it shot with and course of fire?

turismo2142

You can't do that without changing the law Grizz I'm afraid. The only way would have been for your unrestricted shotgun to become a club gun and then become restricted when brought to the range. Pre 2006 this could possibly have been done but since then restricted firearms cannot be used on ranges as club guns so it's not possible.

Otherwise the 2008/2009 SIs governing the definitions of restricted/unrestricted firearms would have to be changed.

Cut shotshells/wax slugs are probably covered by the definition of slugs too. Besides that, they're not that good.

If you want to have slugs, you need a restricted licence.

Plenty of people have restricted lever actions so I don't see why restricted pump shotguns or semi autos are such a big deal.

As far as I understand the rationale behind restricting slugs some time ago was to limit deer poaching. It's otherwise counterintuitive for a .308 to be unrestricted and a slug restricted.

But then again a .38 special is restricted while a .308 isn't so the whole thing makes no sense to me.

Grizzly 45

Proably right Turismo,but I can see trying to explain this to the unknowing and the unwilling who issue restricted liscenses as being another monumental task.

Grrrr!
This whole topic galls me regarding multi shot shotguns.When I think of the two lost opportunities we had with this.The utter dis interest t shown in the 1980s when I tried to get as it was then known as "combat shotgun" in those less PC times going in Ireland,no one cared how many rounds your gun had or what kind of a shape it was in or what or how, you shot at things back then . It would have morphed into IPSC and have been established by 2006,so adding handguns and semi rifles would have been utterly acceptable.

And then the IPSC situation when it was suggested as a fall back position if the pistols went tits up.:rolleyes:




What is the definition of a shotgun slug under the law Turismo?I can't find anything on that ,bar that they are named as restricted ammo.Like "silencers" there was no concerete definition until recently as to what a silencer actually was.
True,mightnt the most accurate of things,but better than nothing..

Plenty of people have restricted lever actions so I don't see why restricted pump shotguns or semi autos are such a big deal.

Errr...Proably because lots of bad guys use them in Hollywood fiction flicks,and thats apprently where most beuracrats get their factual firearms info from perhaps?? When was the last time you saw a bad guy outside a western,use a lever action anything?[ Terminator 2 being the exception,with the most ridicilous cut down lever action shotgun.But it is so in demand Chiappa actually makes a copy of it!]

As far as I understand the rationale behind restricting slugs some time ago was to limit deer poaching. It's otherwise counterintuitive for a .308 to be unrestricted and a slug restricted.

And post 1972 how did most people who couldn't get a .22/250 manage? They made their own slugs,roundball or brenneke .And proably still do and will continue to do so.
Apprently the PTB only became aware that such doomsday weaponary existed by reading here a topic on boards.ie in 2008.:rolleyes: Yeah it makes about as much sense as most firearms related law in Ireland..None whatsoever.

Ok off for a chat with the cheif.....:rolleyes:

turismo2142

Oh there's no definition of slugs other than the use of the word "slug for shotguns" in the 2008 SI. But as with anything in firearms (and you know this more than anyone Grizz) if you were prosecuted under s.2 of the act (theoretically) you'll find that an expert would be rolled out to define slug, it would cover a single projectile from a shotgun and this necessarily would cover wax and cut shell slugs as they are single projectiles (until they hit mere cardboard).

Can't see that scenario ever happening though.

clivej

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Classic shotgun..What is it shot with and course of fire?

From the "The Target Shotgun Training and Reference Manual of the National Rifle Association of the United Kingdom"

“Classic” Shotgun
This subdivision includes all non-magazine fed shotguns such as: Side by Side (S-S), Under and Over (U&O) and Single Shot Martini action

T&P1, Multi Target but with different timings to name a couple are just two that I know are shot.
Read the Phoenix handbook for the rules and all the competitions that are shot.

Phoenix
http://galleryrifle.com/data/2016/01/PHX-2016.pdf

Gallery Rifle
http://galleryrifle.com/data/2016/01/GRP-2016.pdf

clivej

There will be a Side Match for Embassy Cup shotgun held during the NASRPC Competition @ Lough Bo

clivej

20m position
2 targets side x side. 4 shot on each target, go to sitting reload and 4 shots on each target, 30 seconds.
The comment refers to that lads fat gut making getting cartridges from the belt harder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFCJzqZBx5Y

15m position
2 targets side x side. 4 shots on each target, go to kneeling reload and 4 shots on each target, 30 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G-WnbN4QJw

Grizzly 45

Saw the FB pics this AM...Good to see this disipline starting to get some publicity. Have to go to a Mexican bandito over the shoulder style cartridge belt there Clive.;)

clivej

Multi targets were used with the 5 and 4 scoring rings combined to equal 5 center bull. Then 3 ring, 2 ring etc. to score.
25m was standing, 4 shots 2 on each target, reload with 4, go to the weak shoulder and 2 on each target.

Totals shown here for the winning score are,
Left hand 11/5 + 1/3
Right hand 11/5 + 1/3
so only two shots dropped giving a score of 116/120

turismo2142

Restricted cert app for my new (5+1)Benelli m2 went in a couple of weeks ago.

Can't wait.

Thanks for the vid link Clive

I saw the MTSC guys using ipsc targets for embassy. What's the correct target then?

clivej

turismo2142 wrote: »

Restricted cert app for my new (5+1)Benelli m2 went in a couple of weeks ago.

Can't wait.

Thanks for the vid link Clive

I saw the MTSC guys using ipsc targets for embassy. What's the correct target then?

The IPSC target the correct targets to use. Someone forgot to bring them to the competition. So the Multi target was used on the day. 5 & 4 were combined as the centre ring and scored a 5

clivej

Irish Shooter magazine November 2016.
Photo copyright James Connolly (Lough Bo shooting club) and the best photo of me shooting ever

NASRPC

We are thinking of hosting Embassy Cup as part of the NASRPC competitions next year, at ranges which are suitable.

Would there be an interest in this?

clivej

NASRPC wrote: »

We are thinking of hosting Embassy Cup as part of the NASRPC competitions next year, at ranges which are suitable.

Would there be an interest in this?

Yes I'd love to give this a go

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Thought you'd never ask.

turismo2142

Grant letter for my restricted Benelli is on the way (or so I was told). Finally

Fermoy will host the finals of the Munster League on Sunday the 11th next. Embassy Cup will be shot in the lower range if anyone is interested.

If you fancy making the trip Clive (or anyone else for that matter), you'll be most welcome.

clivej

turismo2142 wrote: »

Grant letter for my restricted Benelli is on the way (or so I was told). Finally

Fermoy will host the finals of the Munster League on Sunday the 11th next. Embassy Cup will be shot in the lower range if anyone is interested.

If you fancy making the trip Clive (or anyone else for that matter), you'll be most welcome.

Great news for you (and all the other lads getting into this).
Sorry to say I can't make this weekend (no passout from the wife)

I know of 3 other ppl that bought Maverick 88's 7+1 last week from the Black Friday deal that Ballistech had on offer, a steal €325. So there won't be a shortage of Embassy Cup shooters for next year.


More fodder for me to beat :D:D:D

clivej

The main problem I now see occurring is a shortage of competition slugs to shoot these comps. With a proper competition slug the wad is stuck to the slug so you only get one hole in the target. And the powder charge is less than the magnum slugs so you get back on target quicker.

I use Geco Coated Competition slugs that I find work well in both my pump and semi. £50 /100 in the UK. They got me a second place in the 100y and 200y comp. this year in the Phoenix at Bisley with them.

turismo2142

26g.

I assume they cycle inertia semis ok? They appear to be used in 3gun comps in the States where the M2 is very popular so I'm guessing they do.

clivej

turismo2142 wrote: »

26g.

I assume they cycle inertia semis ok? They appear to be used in 3gun comps in the States where the M2 is very popular so I'm guessing they do.

I'd assume as well but don't know for sure, plenty of kick off them without being too hard on the shoulder