Election issues

fits

I have just read this article about a lady with fatal foetal abnormalities this morning http://thegloss.ie/2016/02/14867/. And I am so so angry that the main parties do not seem to be dealing with this topic at all. Fine Gael for all their citizens convention bull have absolutely no will to deal with the eighth amendment. Fianna Fail are worse. And this is despite repeated opinion polls saying people want a referendum, with large majorities.

Are we a democracy or what??? :mad: It is THEIR JOB to legislate for the people.

I would say this, affordable childcare, and equal access to education are my three main concerns. Unfortunately I am unlikely to ever speak to a politician as they don't come near us here (very rural area).

What are the most important election issues to you?

Das Kitty

Repealing the 8th amendment, and getting the Catholic church out of our schools.

They're my two biggies. If you're against either of those, you're getting no preference from me.

lazygal

School patronage and complete repeal of the eighth amendment, without any legal restrictions on abortion whatsoever, making it a medical not legal matter, are my main issues.

IvyTheTerrible

School patronage and the 8th amendment would be mine if I had a vote.
I could always commit electoral fraud and fly home to vote but a) I don't have the money for a return flight just for that, and b) can't fly in the third trimester.

intheclouds

lazygal wrote: »

School patronage and complete repeal of the eighth amendment, without any legal restrictions on abortion whatsoever, making it a medical not legal matter, are my main issues.

+1

In fact, I checked on whichcandidate.ie and there are only 2 candidates in my constituency who feel the same way as me on both of the above issues, they are not who I would have imagined I would have voted for, but I feel so strongly about the above that I think I will go for it.

eviltwin

I'm only voting for parties that support abortion on demand. I know that FFA is what everyone is talking about but its not enough. It annoys me that its being treated as the crumbs that will make us shut up. While its important it won't affect the vast majority of women needing abortion.

So, that and getting religion out of schools.

fits

Why isn't this more of an election issue? Are they deliberately closing it down? I think they must be. We need to keep the pressure on, or another five years will roll by.

IvyTheTerrible

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm only voting for parties that support abortion on demand. I know that FFA is what everyone is talking about but its not enough. It annoys me that its being treated as the crumbs that will make us shut up. While its important it won't affect the vast majority of women needing abortion.

So, that and getting religion out of schools.

Yeah but the FFA issue suits a lot of politicians' agendas because "Shure those babies were wanted". :rolleyes:

Das Kitty

It's not a big election issue as they know how explosive it can be. They're only talking about FFA as it's the one least likely to cost them votes.

I'm also pro full abortion rights, but I reckon repealing the 8th is a realistic first goal.

eviltwin

Das Kitty wrote: »

It's not a big election issue as they know how explosive it can be. They're only talking about FFA as it's the one least likely to cost them votes.

I'm also pro full abortion rights, but I reckon repealing the 8th is a realistic first goal.

Yeah its the first step but I hope people who are in favour of abortion on demand realise that some of the parties supporting a repeal of the 8th will only consider abortion for FFA and nothing else. Its a start but its not enough.

Das Kitty

eviltwin wrote: »

Yeah its the first step but I hope people who are in favour of abortion on demand realise that some of the parties supporting a repeal of the 8th will only consider abortion for FFA and nothing else. Its a start but its not enough.

See, I think a portion of them are full of sh!t on the issue. I think they will go whatever way the wind starts blowing once they're elected.

Labour for instance, have the FFA line in there, but from their history it's clear they support full abortion rights.

A government's term is 5 years, if we can get rid of the 8th in that, I think we'll be doing well.

Neyite

I'd love to see Viagra restricted like this. Or this. :pac: See how the other half like it.

The abortion issue has been circulating for all of my reproductive life. I'm 41 now and I'd be willing to bet that I'll hit menopause before I see abortion clinics in Ireland. Abortion should be a matter between a woman and her doctor. Not between her, her doctor, three psychologists, a plethora of solicitors and judges.

Religion out of schools - absolutely. People want to pass their faith onto their children can do so in the home, or during Sunday school type of set up.

Better supports for our elderly population, and their carers. Better supports for carers in general. It used to be that a family could thrive on a single wage. Now even to stay head-above-water, both partners need to work, whereas before, one could usually stay at home to do the childcare, disabled care, elderly care.

A better public healthcare system.

Dolbert

I'm willing to bet that privately, most politicians would be in favour of abortion, not least because it's a legislative nightmare that they could do without. I doubt most have a moral objection, rather a fear of an unpopular decision. However they won't put through any sort of referendum until they are 100% sure it will pass, and they right now they can't guarantee that it will.

fits

Dolbert wrote: »

I'm willing to bet that privately, most politicians would be in favour of abortion, .

I really don't think so though. Certainly in rural areas, the male politicians are extremely conservative. My constituency is Carlow Kilkenny and the male candidates in contention from the main parties are
John Paul Mcguinness (FF)
John Paul Phelan (FG)
Liam Aylward (FF)
Pat Deering (FG)
David Fitzgerald (FG)

The only one I would have a question mark that he might support a referendum is David Fitzgerald. All the others are against it. sometimes vociferously so. Pat Deering was one of the final holdouts against the marriage equality referendum.
At least three from that list will get in too. (If not all five) :mad:

Neyite

Oh, voting in favour of abortion as a TD is probably a career-killer in terms of getting voted back in, especially by the older voters so who would risk it, even if privately the believed in full access to abortion.

eviltwin

TD's can afford to be pro life in public at least. If they or a loved one are faced with the need for an abortion they have the funds and the ability to travel to the UK. Its a completely selfish position to take.

Das Kitty

eviltwin wrote: »

TD's can afford to be pro life in public at least. If they or a loved one are faced with the need for an abortion they have the funds and the ability to travel to the UK. Its a completely selfish position to take.

Yup.

A common trait amongst politicians.

fits

Even if you can afford to travel. Its hardly ideal either as recent stories have demonstrated (haemorrhaging and no follow up treatment in IReland). Nope we have to deal with it.

Malari

I don't have a candidate that represents all of my views. If I only look at abortion and religion in schools aspects, I align with the Communist party candidate perfectly. :pac:

I really think that economic issues are what people are more engaged about right now, so the aforementioned issues are just not being discussed enough.

sullivlo

I have several things that I'm basing my choice of candidate on:
- Income tax reform: It needs to be changed. People in the middle tax band are being screwed.
- 8th Ammendment: Needs to be repealed, or at least discussed in Government. Neyeite is concerned she'll hit the menopause before there are abortions here. I'm concerned that I will too, and I'm 29. It's a disgrace, pure and simple.
- Housing / rent crisis: Social housing needed; landlords need to be somewhat regulated.
- Improved health system: current system is just FUBAR. I'm lucky enough to be able to afford health insurance, but it's a rapidly failing system.
- School Patronage: there is no place for religion in school. Discrimination pure and simple.
- Reform of the over 70's medical card scheme: Increase the threshold. Current levels mean that many are borderline but when what they spend on medicine is taken into account they're well under the limit.

Other things that I'm asking about:
- Water charges: I'm in a minority that doesn't mind paying them, I just think we need a more regulated system rather than the current free for all. If I see a candidate wanting to abolish the water charges, they don't get a vote.
- Removal of zero hour contracts
- Reform of JobsBridge scheme - some need a PhD to apply. Exploitation.
- R&D / STEM funding - all well and good to pump money into funding PhD students, what about a bit of thought into what jobs they will do when they graduate!!! Look on the JobsBridge???
- Some consideration for renewable / sustainable energy
- Seanad elections are elitist and needs reform. I have 2 degrees, yet only 1 is recognised by the Seanad. Needs to be all or nothing I think.
- Population led referenda - I don't know enough about this currently to comment, but I am interested to hear what others think. It could be a good way to get things rolling in terms of repealing the 8th, however I'd be concerned that some members of society may extract the urine in terms of what they try to put on the table.

I don't "match" with any of the candidates on whichcandidate.ie - my highest match was my intended first choice candidate anyway. My issue lies with where to transfer my vote. I have some genuine concerns in my constituency (Dublin North-West) in terms of who will actually get elected. It is quite an open competition. The sitting TDs are Ellis (SF), Lyons (Lab), Shortall (SD). Shortall only recently joined SD, was Lab. So herself and Lyons had a 1, 2 preference with many voters. It's interesting to see how either / both poll / transfer now they're not in the same parties. However for the first time, SF are running a second candidate in the constituency, so they must be confident of the second candidate polling well. Transfers could make her very competitive. Also, FG are running a candidate here for the first time in a long time, and he's pretty popular. Current city councillor running for the Dail for the first time. Has a lot of local support which have only just moved into our constituency since the boundary lines were changed. He may also poll well. FF have a candidate too, I haven't looked into him much as all I can see is his "Abolish Water Charges" posters :pac: And then the usual AAA/PBP/WP/Independents that will take a certain % of the first preference but may not have a chance of taking the seat.

Neyite

Yep, agree with nearly all your list there Sullivo.

I don't mind water charges, I actually think that metering is a good idea because it forces people to be a bit more mindful of an important resource, but I'm deeply unimpressed by Irish water thus far, and think that it should not be privatised down the line, which it likely will.

I think Jobsbridge is exploitative in its current format and I generally dislike the whole unpaid internship set up. If someone turns up and does work for you, then they should get paid for it. A small wage if needs be, but a wage all the same.

baby and crumble

I work in policy stuff so obviously my main asks are going to be aligned with that to some degree (spent my last few days reading the manifestos for mentions of our main issues. I am disappoint)

Personally my key issues are;

1) Full legalisation of abortion on demand. I'm unlikely to ever need it as my partner and I are both female however it's something I believe strongly in.

2) Erosion of the power of the Church in Ireland- in schools, hospitals and government.

3) If you're talking to me about eroding the tax base and still being able to provide vital changes in healthcare and other public services- GTFO.

4) I am fully behind an Irish NHS. I can afford private healthcare (well, I'm on my partners plan so we share it) but many people can't and it's completely unfair. We need universal healthcare.

5) Complete and total reform of the HSE. It is bloated and mismanaged and many of the people working in it are either incompetent or just don't give a **** any more.

(Yeah, I work in a healthcare advocacy charity. I may be biassed).

6) Get rid of direct provision and come up with a humane alternative programme to ensure migrants and refugees are well cared for when they come here. Yes, there are some individuals who come here and try and take the piss but if being housed in an old Mosney holiday camp and getting €14 per week with nothing to do and no freedom is better than where you came from then by all means, I want to help you somehow.

sullivlo

baby and crumble wrote: »

I work in policy stuff so obviously my main asks are going to be aligned with that to some degree (spent my last few days reading the manifestos for mentions of our main issues. I am disappoint)

Personally my key issues are;

1) Full legalisation of abortion on demand. I'm unlikely to ever need it as my partner and I are both female however it's something I believe strongly in.

2) Erosion of the power of the Church in Ireland- in schools, hospitals and government.

3) If you're talking to me about eroding the tax base and still being able to provide vital changes in healthcare and other public services- GTFO.

4) I am fully behind an Irish NHS. I can afford private healthcare (well, I'm on my partners plan so we share it) but many people can't and it's completely unfair. We need universal healthcare.

5) Complete and total reform of the HSE. It is bloated and mismanaged and many of the people working in it are either incompetent or just don't give a **** any more.

(Yeah, I work in a healthcare advocacy charity. I may be biassed).

6) Get rid of direct provision and come up with a humane alternative programme to ensure migrants and refugees are well cared for when they come here. Yes, there are some individuals who come here and try and take the piss but if being housed in an old Mosney holiday camp and getting €14 per week with nothing to do and no freedom is better than where you came from then by all means, I want to help you somehow.

The boldest bit raises similar issues that came up in the SSM referendum. Don't want a same sex marriage? Don't ****ing have one so, but don't let your bigoted views affect the lives of others.

Same as with abortions. Don't have a uterus? Don't have an opinion IMO. (Well, within reason :pac:). Don't want an abortion? Don't have one! Simples! Don't let your outdated views impact somebody elses life. How many people have to die in Ireland because of issues with pregnancy before this is looked at? How many people in Ireland will be FORCED against their will to stay in hospital and deliver their baby, despite being suicidal? How many people will have to get the boat to the UK to abort non viable fetuses, giving up hope of follow up medical support at home?!

And I'm also of the opinion: why not give abortions on demand? I am 100% pro choice and also pro life (if that's possible). I don't see abortions as a form of contraception and I think that there should be strict controls in place (time in pregnancy mainly). However mistakes happen. Why should people have to travel?

And, I mean, from a purely economical point of view, all of those women flying to England and paying their Irish earned money to the Queen. Total missed revenue opportunity :pac: in fact, the British economy may collapse if Irish women stop travelling :pac:

(Last paragraph is tongue in cheek btw!)

Sunny Dayz

One of the main issues I see is housing. While it doesn't directly affect me as I have a mortgage which is manageable, but I see no solutions being offered by the government past or candidates as to rent allowances, rent increases, availability of rental accommodation, people being evicted or forced to leave rental accommodation. I don't know how my younger siblings will be able to buy a house in the future. I've had one person tell me that there are some houses for sale near them which they like, but because of the high rent they are paying, they can't afford to save enough for a deposit. If they managed to buy one of those houses, their mortgage repayments would be so much lower than the rent they are paying!


I do worry about my son's future. Are we going to be paying sky high college fees in 8 years time when he starts 3rd level? What sort of a job is he going to get? What sort of Ireland will he be living in (or not living in) in 10 years time?


The health system needs a serious overhaul, starting at the top! I cannot understand with the advances in technology and the new hospital wings being built over the last few years, that we STILL have the hospital bed crisis? The hospital in the next town - I don't know why it's still open, nothing has changed in it over the last 20 years, it doesn't serve the local community only as a glorified nursing home! The nearest real hospital is good 20/30 mins drive away from us and I've never had a compliant about the level of care we have received from it, but it gets frequent threats to services, to departments. The workers at patient level are great, they really do the best they can. But their hands are tied, there's only so much they can do.


Crime. I've started to worry so much about rural crime. Both my parents and my gran live in quiet rural areas - I would be anxious that something should happen to them. Even in our own house, I've had sleepless nights over the winter, especially when I hear a neighbours dog barking during the night I'm worrying that there's someone out there. Muggings in the street, card fraud, women driving alone in cars being targeted. There appears to be nothing done about it.

Sunny Dayz

One other thing that's on my mind. There's a candidate in my area who I think is a good politician, he is proactive, he has done stuff for the local community over the years, he speaks out.
But I really detest the political party he is with (SF). So what galls me is while I could vote this chap in, he would be good for the local area, I'm affectively giving Mr. Adam's and Ms McDonald a handshake each...

sullivlo

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

One of the main issues I see is housing. While it doesn't directly affect me as I have a mortgage which is manageable, but I see no solutions being offered by the government past or candidates as to rent allowances, rent increases, availability of rental accommodation, people being evicted or forced to leave rental accommodation. I don't know how my younger siblings will be able to buy a house in the future. I've had one person tell me that there are some houses for sale near them which they like, but because of the high rent they are paying, they can't afford to save enough for a deposit. If they managed to buy one of those houses, their mortgage repayments would be so much lower than the rent they are paying!


I do worry about my son's future. Are we going to be paying sky high college fees in 8 years time when he starts 3rd level? What sort of a job is he going to get? What sort of Ireland will he be living in (or not living in) in 10 years time?


The health system needs a serious overhaul, starting at the top! I cannot understand with the advances in technology and the new hospital wings being built over the last few years, that we STILL have the hospital bed crisis? The hospital in the next town - I don't know why it's still open, nothing has changed in it over the last 20 years, it doesn't serve the local community only as a glorified nursing home! The nearest real hospital is good 20/30 mins drive away from us and I've never had a compliant about the level of care we have received from it, but it gets frequent threats to services, to departments. The workers at patient level are great, they really do the best they can. But their hands are tied, there's only so much they can do.


Crime. I've started to worry so much about rural crime. Both my parents and my gran live in quiet rural areas - I would be anxious that something should happen to them. Even in our own house, I've had sleepless nights over the winter, especially when I hear a neighbours dog barking during the night I'm worrying that there's someone out there. Muggings in the street, card fraud, women driving alone in cars being targeted. There appears to be nothing done about it.

My car was broken into outside my house recently. I reported it to the guards. I wasn't expecting anything, but to be fair the community Garda team contacted me and there has been an increase in uniformed foot patrols in the area.

That doesn't put the little scrotes off though

Agree on rent issues. I don't have a mortgage. I don't have a stable job so I can't get one. Even if I get a proper job, I'm not sure I could afford to buy in Dublin. Property prices and rents are just off the charts.

sullivlo

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

One other thing that's on my mind. There's a candidate in my area who I think is a good politician, he is proactive, he has done stuff for the local community over the years, he speaks out.
But I really detest the political party he is with (SF). So what galls me is while I could vote this chap in, he would be good for the local area, I'm affectively giving Mr. Adam's and Ms McDonald a handshake each...

That's a major concern of mine (& others that I have spoken to). SF are currently a scary prospect with their current leader, but I'm afraid that that won't put some people off voting for them.

Individual candidates can be spectacular, but I'm just apprehensive about their leadership (cough cough, and potential links to terrorism, cough cough).

Also looking at their budget, it just doesn't add up. Cut income tax but increase public expenditure? Does not compute.

sullivlo

Neyite wrote: »

Yep, agree with nearly all your list there Sullivo.

I don't mind water charges, I actually think that metering is a good idea because it forces people to be a bit more mindful of an important resource, but I'm deeply unimpressed by Irish water thus far, and think that it should not be privatised down the line, which it likely will.

I think Jobsbridge is exploitative in its current format and I generally dislike the whole unpaid internship set up. If someone turns up and does work for you, then they should get paid for it. A small wage if needs be, but a wage all the same.

Even though it's capped and we don't have a meter yet, I am more conscious of my water usage now. That can only be a good thing for the environment.

And I agree that generally unpaid internships are useless. However! However! We often take undergrads into the lab over the summer. They don't get paid, maybe a few lunches or something. They don't do anything of importance in the lab either. (Undergrads if you're reading this it's highly important work and we'll send it to nature soon). As in they wouldn't be taking a load off our plate by being there. They're probably the opposite in fact. However we teach them things that they will need in a career in science - pipetting, different lab techniques, other aspects of science that undergrads don't see - safety, SOPs, ordering, writing, reading. The list is endless. Anyway! They request these internships to strengthen their CVs and set them apart from other graduates / help in future experiments. So that kind of thing I don't mind. But pharma companies advertising for unpaid interns to do menial monkey work that they don't want to pay someone for, can FRO.

meeeeh

I can't vote in Ireland but my main criteria would be half sane economic policy so that rules out all the no water charges crowd. After that it's health because I think it's complete mess. Subsidized childcare is next because when women work they have more social power. I don't think it's coincidence women's rights are improving with bigger financial independence. 8th amendment and patronage are next but I don't think anyone has an appetite to scrap patronage which would be my preference.

Oh and I think apprenticeship programme is hugely important. It's next to impossible to find decent carpenter or tiler.

Lyaiera

I would say abortion is a big issue for me, and it helps that the anti-abortion people also just happen to be people I wouldn't vote for either. Surprising? Maybe.

Healthcare is a big one for me, especially mental health. The mental health system is not set up for the modern circumstances of who is diagnosed and has issues. It's still caught up with people who are generally incapable of managing their lives. There's very little understanding for people who need help, but who are talented, smart, and who were very successful. It's similar to the education system in many ways. That was set up for long term unemployed people who could barely write a letter where the reality is there are people long term unemployed who had successful careers, who graduated university, and who could contribute a lot if the economic circumstance was right for them.

Both mental health, and education seems to be aimed at people who society considered at the "lowest" of the educational, intellectual, etc. end of society. And completely fails to recognise that there are people who were running their own business successfully until they got hit with anxiety, or depression, and there's people who were more than capable in their field now unemployed because the industry isn't there for them in Ireland.

Economically I seem to align with the social democrats, and to some extent the greens. A recognition that the lower and middle incomes are in need of help, but also a recognition that the state needs funding and a re-orgnisation in using that funding. The people calling for scrapping of ever water charge, taxes, USCs, etc. but want to increase government spending just don't seem grounded in reality.


Housing is the final issue for me. Rents are skyrocketing, the amount of places available is dwindling, and the only solutions that are proffered is to build more houses, and we've had recent experience with that.

I'd have some concern for green issues, but on a more practical level and more related to housing. People are moving to cities, people want to be in cities, and cities need to become more green, as well as more socially appealing to people.

Macha

Environment is a big one for me. I had a little baby last year and although I was passionate about environmental issues before, having a baby has really brought it into focus. I want him to inherit a world where climate change hasn't gone out of control, we can produce our food sustainably without polluting our waters, killing off the bees etc. That also includes issues like efficient quality housing, liveable cities, public transport, sustainable jobs, renewable energy etc. It's not fair that we trash the planet and then hand it over like a used tissue to the next generation.

Health care is also important. Close family members have been sick a lot over the past year and I despair at how they're treated sometimes (on trolleys in A&E etc) while knowing it would never happen in the EU country I live in.

A few other 'selfish' issues are sorting out the housing market, the cost of childcare and religion in schools. I don't live in Ireland (and can't vote) but would like to return soon and all these things are big barriers.

Finally, yes - I could never vote for someone who hasn't pledged to repeal the 8th amendment. And that doesn't include those Renua candidates who are in favour but have a party line of a vote of conscience. That's not how Irish politics works - we need TDs who will actively push for the referendum to happen and I believe these TDs would come under a lot of internal party pressure not to be active on the issue.

meeeeh

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

Crime. I've started to worry so much about rural crime. Both my parents and my gran live in quiet rural areas - I would be anxious that something should happen to them. Even in our own house, I've had sleepless nights over the winter, especially when I hear a neighbours dog barking during the night I'm worrying that there's someone out there. Muggings in the street, card fraud, women driving alone in cars being targeted. There appears to be nothing done about it.

As someone who lives in rural Ireland I would be more worried about urban crime. I'm not denying some areas and age groups are targeted but in comparison, if our dog goes mental barking, my first thought would be what rabbit or cat annoyed him this time. I think rural crime is more on the agenda because stations closed but I am not convinced that actually made much difference.

Someone mentioned more people initiated referenda. I come from a country that had very liberal system and you could get anything passed, from shops being closed on Sundays to no IVF for single women or something similar. About 20% of people, usually the biggest lulas, show up to vote and then you are stuck with some nonsense. Even when you introduce quorum you get people voting on something they know nothing about.

Similarly I am not that mad about NHS model, firstly because I think comparative studies identify better models around Europe and also because I think there should be some sort of option to tailor extra insurance to your needs. I prefer the Dutch model that FG was offering before previous election and failed miserably to implement.

BTW I love politics. Elections are my rugby world cup.

PressRun

1.The abortion issue is very important to me. Luckily there are a couple of candidates in my constituency who are in favour of repealing the 8th, and I believe they are interested in further legalizing abortion, but are focusing on the 8th for now.

2. Mental health services need to be urgently looked at and this seems to be constantly overlooked.

3. Removing the church from schools. Children being rejected from schools for not being baptized is a joke in 2016.

4. I would like to see some moves being made towards an NHS style healthcare service. After living in the UK for a time, I miss it and I really think it's a fantastic service that is worth emulating.

Lisacatlover

Neyite wrote: »

I'd love to see Viagra restricted .nbcnews.com/news/us-news/want-viagra-s-c-bill-would-make-men-go-through-n480741 like this .courier-journal.com/story/news/politics/2016/02/12/want-viagra-not-without-note-wife/80294772/ :pac: See how the other half like it.

I know you're being a bit tongue in cheek, but
it's really really unhelpful when people try to frame the discussion as some kind of 'men vs women' issue. Particularly as men consistently report higher rates of support for abortion on demand in Ireland, such as in this recent Red C poll
.amnesty.ie/news/new-poll-finds-two-thirds-majority-ireland-want-abortion-decriminalised
with 46% of men versus 43% of women responding they are pro abortion on demand.

It's not a sexism issue. Pretending it is is really not beneficial and just distracts from the real issues at play.

sullivlo

Lisacatlover wrote: »

I know you're being a bit tongue in cheek, but
it's really really unhelpful when people try to frame the discussion as some kind of 'men vs women' issue. Particularly as men consistently report higher rates of support for abortion on demand in Ireland, such as in this recent Red C poll
.amnesty.ie/news/new-poll-finds-two-thirds-majority-ireland-want-abortion-decriminalised
with 46% of men versus 43% of women responding they are pro abortion on demand.

It's not a sexism issue. Pretending it is is really not beneficial and just distracts from the real issues at play.

But it kinda is a men versus women discussion. Men can't have abortions. They don't have wombs.

That's not to say they can't have opinions on abortion, or a say on abortion when it's their potential offspring involved, but ultimately it comes down to only women can get abortions.

intheclouds

sullivlo wrote: »

But it kinda is a men versus women discussion. Men can't have abortions. They don't have wombs.

Some people see it as a womens issue, others see it as a societal issue.

Personally I do not agree that it is a societal issue, but that is because I am pro individual choice.

Neyite

Lisacatlover wrote: »

I know you're being a bit tongue in cheek, but
it's really really unhelpful when people try to frame the discussion as some kind of 'men vs women' issue. Particularly as men consistently report higher rates of support for abortion on demand in Ireland, such as in this recent Red C poll
.amnesty.ie/news/new-poll-finds-two-thirds-majority-ireland-want-abortion-decriminalised
with 46% of men versus 43% of women responding they are pro abortion on demand.

It's not a sexism issue. Pretending it is is really not beneficial and just distracts from the real issues at play.

Yes, it was tongue in cheek. :rolleyes:. Just like people saying they'd love to see a politician survive on the minimum wage for a month. Or whatever.

Look, its very nice that a lot of men are also in favour of abortion on demand, but until our politicians let us vote on the issue, their support and their potential vote on the issue is as useless as ours.

Meanwhile its women that are suffering directly as a result. Especially the women who don't have the financial means, the freedom to travel, and or supports to allow her to take days away from her obligations to travel for an abortion. For the women that do travel to terminate, aftercare is scant, and because of the illegality and perceived stigma of it, probably would feel very apprehensive of presenting in a hospital if they showed signs of complications post-termination. It affects our maternity services, our early pregnancy units. It affects our lives.

All hospital policies relating to the unborn are formed to abide by the legal restrictions, and it has a wide ranging effect on even the smallest procedures in a maternity or EPU, like scans for instance. Hospitals have taken the Do Nothing option because realistically, that is all they can do within the law. The hospital staff would love to do more, but are reduced to offering sympathy and a leaflet when you present in early pregnancy needing medical assistance.

So while it may be an issue that men are supportive of, there is no way it affects men to the extent that it affects the women of this country.

Lisacatlover

Neyite wrote: »

Yes, it was tongue in cheek. :rolleyes:. Just like people saying they'd love to see a politician survive on the minimum wage for a month. Or whatever.

Look, its very nice that a lot of men are also in favour of abortion on demand, but until our politicians let us vote on the issue, their support and their potential vote on the issue is as useless as ours.

Meanwhile its women that are suffering directly as a result. Especially the women who don't have the financial means, the freedom to travel, and or supports to allow her to take days away from her obligations to travel for an abortion. For the women that do travel to terminate, aftercare is scant, and because of the illegality and perceived stigma of it, probably would feel very apprehensive of presenting in a hospital if they showed signs of complications post-termination. It affects our maternity services, our early pregnancy units. It affects our lives.

All hospital policies relating to the unborn are formed to abide by the legal restrictions, and it has a wide ranging effect on even the smallest procedures in a maternity or EPU, like scans for instance. Hospitals have taken the Do Nothing option because realistically, that is all they can do within the law. The hospital staff would love to do more, but are reduced to offering sympathy and a leaflet when you present in early pregnancy needing medical assistance.

So while it may be an issue that men are supportive of, there is no way it affects men to the extent that it affects the women of this country.

None of which negates the counter-productivity, and not to put too fine a point on it, ignorant idiocy, of trying to frame the debate in a 'oh those men are stopping us having abortions cause it doesn't effect them' silliness.

It's a humanitarian issue, not a 'feminist' issue.

meeeeh

Lisacatlover wrote: »

I know you're being a bit tongue in cheek, but
it's really really unhelpful when people try to frame the discussion as some kind of 'men vs women' issue. Particularly as men consistently report higher rates of support for abortion on demand in Ireland, such as in this recent Red C poll
.amnesty.ie/news/new-poll-finds-two-thirds-majority-ireland-want-abortion-decriminalised
with 46% of men versus 43% of women responding they are pro abortion on demand.

It's not a sexism issue. Pretending it is is really not beneficial and just distracts from the real issues at play.

It's actually female political representation issue. Being pro or anti something in opinion poll is one thing, the issue actual appearing on your radar strongly enough to act is completely different. Most politicians are well off, middle class, male teachers, most likely stay at home wife and kids so there is a whole plethora of issues that don't get a look in because they can't empathize with them. Hopefully quotas will address that a bit. It doesn't mean that all women think the same it means women are more affected by it.

eviltwin

Lisacatlover wrote: »

None of which negates the counter-productivity, and not to put too fine a point on it, ignorant idiocy, of trying to frame the debate in a 'oh those men are stopping us having abortions cause it doesn't effect them' silliness.

It's a humanitarian issue, not a 'feminist' issue.

I don't think anyone speaks like that unless the men they are talking about are the ones within the church. Most men I know are prochoice. Most women I know know that men are prochoice. It may be a humanitarian issue but ultimately there is only one gender that is going to be physically affected by the lack of access to abortion and its impact on maternity care.

Neyite

Lisacatlover wrote: »

None of which negates the counter-productivity, and not to put too fine a point on it, ignorant idiocy, of trying to frame the debate in a 'oh those men are stopping us having abortions cause it doesn't effect them' silliness.

It's a humanitarian issue, not a 'feminist' issue.

It's been mostly men in Government since the Irish state was formed. Men who created our original constitution. The TD's who were responsible for every amendment to that constitution have been mostly male, maybe a token female here and there. Every cleric who sermons to his congregation about how sinful abortion is and advocates voting against any pro-choice option, is male.

So yeah, it kinda is predominantly men stopping women from having accessible abortion services in their locality.

Das Kitty

Abortion rights are not a feminist issue?

Have I slipped into a parallel universe?
:pac:

sullivlo

Das Kitty wrote: »

Abortion rights are not a feminist issue?

Have I slipped into a parallel universe?
:pac:

It would appear so.

meeeeh

I think part of the problem is to assign issues just to one group. Abortion is feminist issue but it is also humanitarian issue. I don't think same sex marriage would pass if it was only gay issue. The homelessness will never be resolved if it will be only a 'people on benefits issue'. Something has to become societal issue for things to change. (BTW that's why patronage isn't getting anywhere and is getting very little attention outside Irish Times, it affects a few urban areas but most are fairly oblivious to the problem of getting school places).

Lisacatlover

Das Kitty wrote: »

Abortion rights are not a feminist issue?

Have I slipped into a parallel universe?
:pac:

Go on so, how is it a feminist issue?

Lisacatlover

Neyite wrote: »

It's been mostly men in Government since the Irish state was formed. Men who created our original constitution. The TD's who were responsible for every amendment to that constitution have been mostly male, maybe a token female here and there. Every cleric who sermons to his congregation about how sinful abortion is and advocates voting against any pro-choice option, is male.

So yeah, it kinda is predominantly men stopping women from having accessible abortion services in their locality.

Women are more than 50 percent of the electorate. And they offer less support for abortion than men do. Both of those statements are empirical facts. And both are as irrelevant as your post above.

Lisacatlover

meeeeh wrote: »

It's actually female political representation issue. Being pro or anti something in opinion poll is one thing, the issue actual appearing on your radar strongly enough to act is completely different. Most politicians are well off, middle class, male teachers, most likely stay at home wife and kids so there is a whole plethora of issues that don't get a look in because they can't empathize with them. Hopefully quotas will address that a bit. It doesn't mean that all women think the same it means women are more affected by it.

And women offer less support for abortion rights than men do, consistently, across poll after poll after poll. If you honestly think more women politicians == more support for abortion then what are you basing that on?

meeeeh

Lisacatlover wrote: »

Women are more than 50 percent of the electorate. And they offer less support for abortion than men do. Both of those statements are empirical facts. And both are as irrelevant as your post above.

Are they empirical facts? What was the margin in the poll? Usually it's around three percent so it could actually mean 43% for men and 46% for women. So that is as far as you will get with 'empirical facts'.

Edit: just to add, did your poll also indicate how likely are men and women to vote in referendum?

Lisacatlover

meeeeh wrote: »

Are they? What was the margin in the poll? Usually it's around three percent so it could actually mean 43% for men and 46% for women. So that is as far as you will get with 'empirical facts'.

They're the hard figures. The full poll is linked in the previous post.

Are we actually at the point of putting the term empirical facts in quotations? Facts are facts are facts.

fits

Lisacatlover wrote: »

And women offer less support for abortion rights than men do, consistently, across poll after poll after poll. If you honestly think more women politicians == more support for abortion then what are you basing that on?

Where do you see that?

I know in our house, while we agree, I feel far more strongly about the issue than my husband. do you know why?

I am the person who could be denied lifesaving treatment in hospital. I am the person who would have to deal with repercussions of treatment abroad and no follow up here. Women in generally relate far more strongly to the issue than men, for whom it will only ever be an abstract idea.

Lisacatlover

fits wrote: »

Where do you see that?

I know in our house, while we agree, I feel far more strongly about the issue than my husband. do you know why?

I am the person who could be denied lifesaving treatment in hospital. I am the person who would have to deal with repercussions of treatment abroad and no follow up here. Women in generally relate far more strongly to the issue than men, for whom it will only ever be an abstract idea.

That's your feeling, the numbers don't bare it out.