A Modest Proposal

The Lost Sheep

rsh118 wrote: »

This may be utter madness and excuse me if that is the case. Equally excuse me if this thread has been done before, I searched to no avail.

I propose that the IRFU in the interests of keeping a larger amount of talent on its books should either buy London Irish or enter a team in English rugby to work its way up to the Aviva.

Hear me out on this. I know Connacht was for this originally, but they are getting too good to be worth torpedoing when they may earn more money playing through the CC.

Argentina ran a team in the Currie Cup to keep their youngsters ticking over and were very successful in doing so.

The team would have to be self-financing but would have a conveyor belt of young Irish talent flowing in, and would have a chance to start breaking the bottle-neck between academy level and playing for the provinces. I know it would reduce depth a little in the provinces, but would be a godsend for every 3rd and 4th string player considering an offer from Pro D2. After all many amazing players in US sports have come from the bottom of the drafts where nobody predicted any success for them.

Please, someone shoot me down before I really start thinking this is a great idea.

We wouldn't be allowed by RFU/PRL. Expanding the A teams is a way of getting more games in provincial system but then that affects the AIL. Provinces have more control with more A games but do we affect the clubs more when they need all the support they can get?
The Aviva is not a Union ran league so it would be very difficult for us to take part and we shouldn't really.

NiallBoo wrote: »

I actually quite like where you're coming from with this. There's certainly too a gap there to be filled.
AIL isn't good enough and Provincial A teams don't play often enough or against good enough opposition.

Outsourcing the team to a league nobody gives a damn about like the premiership certainly has its merits.

To me the biggest drawback is that I wouldn't want developing players playing the terrible rugby that's mandatory in the aviva.

Anyway - a more obvious proposal would be to try and actually make the AIL work properly as a semi-pro league. Can you imagine the kind of development players would get if it was anything like the standard if the NPC or Currie cup?

Other alternatives might be to split leinster into leinster/Dublin or Munster into limerick/cork and have 5/6 Irish teams in the pro 12.

Splitting Ulster into east/west Belfast probably wouldn't go quite so well...

AIl is good enough and you have to consider the lack of resources put into it and how it could be utilised better than it currently is. We don't have the depth of NZ/SA and I don't see any way that we will unless the overall base of players continues to expand and both overall numbers at kids/youths/schools levels increase and that increase follows on to the adult game and we have significantly more playing at all levels of the game. The support isn't there for splitting the provinces. Munster have enough issues with getting crowds etc for the whole province never mind if you split it in two.

rsh118 wrote: »

If that's the case, they can have Meath. We have space for one more province.

Isn't the Aviva handled by money-hungry PRL rather than the RFU? I'm sure we could bung all the right people while €500 notes are still in existence...

We don't have the space for another province. Our 4th province is only really getting going now and we're how long into the pro era. A 5th provincial side is a non runner.

Winters

Before we get into any comparisons between the Irish system and the NZ system it is helpful to know that the semi pro ITM teams are representative provincial sides just like our own provinces. It is a closed shop two tier system like the Currie Cup I believe. A Super Rugby team in Ireland would sit between the provinces and the national team like a Ulster/Leinster select side.

The AIL clubs in Ireland are not a fair comparison to the ITM or Currie sides. All clubs in NZ operate within their provinces on a strictly amateur and local level but im open to correction on that.

The AIL is the top of the whole Irish club rugby pyramid. Conceivably a junior club could be AIL champs in a few years time and then back to amateur obscurity in the same amount of time which is unsustainable if you were to try and introduce professional players into that. Conceivably the only way would be to maintain central provincial contracts with the players leased to their clubs.

Remember in all of this that Irish clubs and schools are the IRFU shareholders. One vote each. Some shareholders may find the amateur/semi pro balance unfair and the big clubs could breakaway and then we'll all be Welsh.

rsh118

Winters wrote: »

Before we get into any comparisons between the Irish system and the NZ system it is helpful to know that the semi pro ITM teams are representative provincial sides just like our own provinces. It is a closed shop two tier system like the Currie Cup I believe. A Super Rugby team in Ireland would sit between the provinces and the national team like a Ulster/Leinster select side.

The AIL clubs in Ireland are not a fair comparison to the ITM or Currie sides. All clubs in NZ operate within their provinces on a strictly amateur and local level but im open to correction on that.

The AIL is the top of the whole Irish club rugby pyramid. Conceivably a junior club could be AIL champs in a few years time and then back to amateur obscurity in the same amount of time which is unsustainable if you were to try and introduce professional players into that. Conceivably the only way would be to maintain central provincial contracts with the players leased to their clubs.

Remember in all of this that Irish clubs and schools are the IRFU shareholders. One vote each. Some shareholders may find the amateur/semi pro balance unfair and the big clubs could breakaway and then we'll all be Welsh.

Yeah you are right, I've definitely been shoe-horning one system into the other when they don't quite align, largely because the Super teams cover a collection of ITM provinces (supposedly).

One driver of interest in AIL though would be the not-quite-internationals or former internationals playing for local sides and mixing with the amateurs.

One of the benefits I saw in the NZ system is how close the top of the amateur is with the professional. It's completely normal to see out of favour all blacks playing for their ITM side alongside amateurs who are working 9-5 at the same time.

Also creates a pathway to pro while making for exciting rugby because oddly enough Cory Jane can make mincemeat of some of the amateurs he comes up against. Thinking aloud here...

The Lost Sheep

Winters wrote: »

Before we get into any comparisons between the Irish system and the NZ system it is helpful to know that the semi pro ITM teams are representative provincial sides just like our own provinces. It is a closed shop two tier system like the Currie Cup I believe. A Super Rugby team in Ireland would sit between the provinces and the national team like a Ulster/Leinster select side.

The AIL clubs in Ireland are not a fair comparison to the ITM or Currie sides. All clubs in NZ operate within their provinces on a strictly amateur and local level but im open to correction on that.

The AIL is the top of the whole Irish club rugby pyramid. Conceivably a junior club could be AIL champs in a few years time and then back to amateur obscurity in the same amount of time which is unsustainable if you were to try and introduce professional players into that. Conceivably the only way would be to maintain central provincial contracts with the players leased to their clubs.

Remember in all of this that Irish clubs and schools are the IRFU shareholders. One vote each. Some shareholders may find the amateur/semi pro balance unfair and the big clubs could breakaway and then we'll all be Welsh.

Of course AIL cant be compared to ITM/Currie Cup. The whole system is completely different.
Would the case in NZ be more like if we had 32 county teams and they took part In ITM Cup and then the provinces took part in Champions Cup

Just look at County Carlow rugby club. Won leinster junior league 1997, won AIL division 4 in 1997/1998, got to division 1 in 01/02, played division 1 for 4 seasons. went back junior for 10-11 season. Now currently playing division 2A(3rd division) of the Leinster junior league.
If only the voting system was like that and one vote each but it isn't the case at all.

The Black Stags

Just a passing thought; but rather than England... why not Australia? God knows there are plenty of us out there. The weather is nice and it'll give guys an opportunity to play that fast flowing free rugby we all like to watch.


ARU has no money and their own national league has plenty of room to expand.

rsh118

The Black Stags wrote: »

Just a passing thought; but rather than England... why not Australia? God knows there are plenty of us out there. The weather is nice and it'll give guys an opportunity to play that fast flowing free rugby we all like to watch.


ARU has no money and their own national league has plenty of room to expand.

Ah now, we don't want it to be anywhere too nice!

Winters

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

If only the voting system was like that and one vote each but it isn't the case at all.

I meant "share" rather than vote so my apologies.

errlloyd

While we're all in fantasy land, I think we should set up an academy on the grounds of the Irish embassy in Samoa. Players in that academy would be on Irish soil and it would count towards residency, they could complete in the ITM cup in New Zealand as an extra team. Irish lads not quite making the cut here could go down to Samoa and learn the trade off the locals. Developing a new generation of massive, good offloading, Irish Samoans.

NiallBoo

I didn't mean to criticise the AIL for being where it is, I think it does pretty well considering how neglected (hamstrung even?) it is by the union.
Most clubs are busy just keeping their doors open and don't have the time/money/expertise to grow the league.

I think if the union were to step in and invest heavily in creating a healthy semi-pro league then there would be massive benefits for everyone.

Would it be easy, quick or cheap? No, but IMO worth it.

Big investments in things like marketing of the league, broadcasting, player retention/development and match-day facilities would all be needed.
It's crucial that you really give people something to get excited about!

I can't say what the best form would be. The obvious options would be

A: AIL premiership, essentially existing structure but investing in marketing, broadcasting facilities to get people interested, grow supporter numbers and help earn back money to sustain a semi-pro base.

B: regional rugby, 10/12/16? teams broken up primarily on a population/player number basis. Same investments needed as above but simpler and more stable, but possibly further torpedoing the existing clubs. (Counties wouldn't work as there's to great a Mismatch)

Extra thought: ground-sharing with "top" soccer clubs could be a crafty move here as they've got good facilities of about the right size and will be keen to take on partners to help them develop.

Anyway, they're just things I'd like to see.

Note: according to the figures, ireland has more rugby players than new Zealand. And yes, I'm sceptical about how those figures work too...but the bottom line is that there's plenty of interest, if you can tap it.

The Lost Sheep

NiallBoo wrote: »

I didn't mean to criticise the AIL for being where it is, I think it does pretty well considering how neglected (hamstrung even?) it is by the union.
Most clubs are busy just keeping their doors open and don't have the time/money/expertise to grow the league.

I think if the union were to step in and invest heavily in creating a healthy semi-pro league then there would be massive benefits for everyone.

Would it be easy, quick or cheap? No, but IMO worth it.

Big investments in things like marketing of the league, broadcasting, player retention/development and match-day facilities would all be needed.
It's crucial that you really give people something to get excited about!

I can't say what the best form would be. The obvious options would be

A: AIL premiership, essentially existing structure but investing in marketing, broadcasting facilities to get people interested, grow supporter numbers and help earn back money to sustain a semi-pro base.

B: regional rugby, 10/12/16? teams broken up primarily on a population/player number basis. Same investments needed as above but simpler and more stable, but possibly further torpedoing the existing clubs. (Counties wouldn't work as there's to great a Mismatch)

Extra thought: ground-sharing with "top" soccer clubs could be a crafty move here as they've got good facilities of about the right size and will be keen to take on partners to help them develop.

Anyway, they're just things I'd like to see.

Note: according to the figures, ireland has more rugby players than new Zealand. And yes, I'm sceptical about how those figures work too...but the bottom line is that there's plenty of interest, if you can tap it.

But this semi pro league. Who plays in it? Who will fund it?
What do you want done about marketing the league? How do you market it better?
If you were to have regional teams. How many? Where do you base them?
Would ground-sharing really work?
These are the soccer stadiums....
http://www.balls.ie/football/power-ranking-league-ireland-stadiums/235489

IRFU include a lot of kids who play in schools through the development officers and the 6/8 weeks programmes that development officers run and those kids don't play regularly with clubs. The figures are not as high if talking about those who play a season long 10-18+ games a season

English Lurker

To rain on the already rained on parade -

A Premiership club would have to pay Premiership salaries, or the guys you want to go there would simply reject the move and go somewhere paying Premiership salaries.

So either the club would get no one good and get relegated in short order... or you've created an entity that sucks up all the talent from other provinces at inflated wages because they pay more. Either way, it doesn't work, to add to the long list of other reasons it wouldn't work.


I do frequently wonder why the IRFU doesn't form a partnership with a perennial Championship club with the intention of sending talented Irish coaches (the weakest and seemingly most-neglected part of your development pathways imo) to get work and supplying them with maybe 4-6 guys a season (at most) who clearly need pro game time but aren't going to get enough of it in Ireland. Obviously I know why, you want to pour everything into your own development pathways, but it could be a useful and inexpensive halfway house to rent while building your own.


A Premiership club though? Good luck with that one...

English Lurker

To rain on the already rained on parade -

A Premiership club would have to pay Premiership salaries, or the guys you want to go there would simply reject the move and go somewhere paying Premiership salaries.

So either the club would get no one good and get relegated in short order... or you've created an entity that sucks up all the talent from other provinces at inflated wages because they pay more. Either way, it doesn't work, to add to the long list of other reasons it wouldn't work.


I do frequently wonder why the IRFU doesn't form a partnership with a perennial Championship club with the intention of sending talented Irish coaches (the weakest and seemingly most-neglected part of your development pathways imo) to get work and supplying them with maybe 4-6 guys a season (at most) who clearly need pro game time but aren't going to get enough of it in Ireland. Obviously I know why, you want to pour everything into your own development pathways, but it could be a useful and inexpensive halfway house to rent while building your own.


A Premiership club though? Good luck with that one...

rsh118

A championship club would probably be the most sensible thing in the long run. I'm sure if you tied National Team work to playing in Ireland as opposed to the Premiership side it would still be competitive.

Those central contracts are pretty tasty. It would definitely be absurd, but then there are unions who place huge bets on themselves winning a competition to cover costs which almost seems a bit mad!

Anyway, let's get a championship club for the minute then and if they get promoted all the better!

CatFromHue

errlloyd wrote: »

While we're all in fantasy land, I think we should set up an academy on the grounds of the Irish embassy in Samoa. Players in that academy would be on Irish soil and it would count towards residency, they could complete in the ITM cup in New Zealand as an extra team. Irish lads not quite making the cut here could go down to Samoa and learn the trade off the locals. Developing a new generation of massive, good offloading, Irish Samoans.

Samoa?

It's all about Montserrat baby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QHYFXDGf4Y