A Modest Proposal

rsh118

This may be utter madness and excuse me if that is the case. Equally excuse me if this thread has been done before, I searched to no avail.

I propose that the IRFU in the interests of keeping a larger amount of talent on its books should either buy London Irish or enter a team in English rugby to work its way up to the Aviva.

Hear me out on this. I know Connacht was for this originally, but they are getting too good to be worth torpedoing when they may earn more money playing through the CC.

Argentina ran a team in the Currie Cup to keep their youngsters ticking over and were very successful in doing so.

The team would have to be self-financing but would have a conveyor belt of young Irish talent flowing in, and would have a chance to start breaking the bottle-neck between academy level and playing for the provinces. I know it would reduce depth a little in the provinces, but would be a godsend for every 3rd and 4th string player considering an offer from Pro D2. After all many amazing players in US sports have come from the bottom of the drafts where nobody predicted any success for them.

Please, someone shoot me down before I really start thinking this is a great idea.

errlloyd

I think I'd rather eat my own children to be honest.

LeinsterDub

Already have it. Called Leinster 'A'

racso1975

errlloyd wrote: »

I think I'd rather eat my own children to be honest.

Well that's hardly a constructive response!!!

errlloyd

racso1975 wrote: »

Well that's hardly a constructive response!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

racso1975

errlloyd wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

My ignorance. Apologies

rsh118

errlloyd wrote: »

I think I'd rather eat my own children to be honest.

Well they'll never win a European Cup in that state. Kudos on your swift response.

NiallBoo

I actually quite like where you're coming from with this. There's certainly too a gap there to be filled.
AIL isn't good enough and Provincial A teams don't play often enough or against good enough opposition.

Outsourcing the team to a league nobody gives a damn about like the premiership certainly has its merits.

To me the biggest drawback is that I wouldn't want developing players playing the terrible rugby that's mandatory in the aviva.

Anyway - a more obvious proposal would be to try and actually make the AIL work properly as a semi-pro league. Can you imagine the kind of development players would get if it was anything like the standard if the NPC or Currie cup?

Other alternatives might be to split leinster into leinster/Dublin or Munster into limerick/cork and have 5/6 Irish teams in the pro 12.

Splitting Ulster into east/west Belfast probably wouldn't go quite so well...

jacothelad

rsh118 wrote: »

This may be utter madness and excuse me if that is the case. Equally excuse me if this thread has been done before, I searched to no avail.

I propose that the IRFU in the interests of keeping a larger amount of talent on its books should either buy London Irish or enter a team in English rugby to work its way up to the Aviva.

Hear me out on this. I know Connacht was for this originally, but they are getting too good to be worth torpedoing when they may earn more money playing through the CC.

Argentina ran a team in the Currie Cup to keep their youngsters ticking over and were very successful in doing so.

The team would have to be self-financing but would have a conveyor belt of young Irish talent flowing in, and would have a chance to start breaking the bottle-neck between academy level and playing for the provinces. I know it would reduce depth a little in the provinces, but would be a godsend for every 3rd and 4th string player considering an offer from Pro D2. After all many amazing players in US sports have come from the bottom of the drafts where nobody predicted any success for them.

Please, someone shoot me down before I really start thinking this is a great idea.

The RFU wouldn't permit it any more than the IRFU would allow England to run a similar team as a province here.

rsh118

jacothelad wrote: »

The RFU wouldn't permit it any more than the IRFU would allow England to run a similar team as a province here.

If that's the case, they can have Meath. We have space for one more province.

Isn't the Aviva handled by money-hungry PRL rather than the RFU? I'm sure we could bung all the right people while €500 notes are still in existence...

NiallBoo

rsh118 wrote: »

If that's the case, they can have Meath. We have space for one more province.

Isn't the Aviva handled by money-hungry PRL rather than the RFU? I'm sure we could bung all the right people while €500 notes are still in existence...

You're right, recent years have proved clearly threat the rfu are completely incapable of standing up to the prl.

English Lurker

jacothelad wrote: »

The RFU wouldn't permit it any more than the IRFU would allow England to run a similar team as a province here.

There is a partnership between the SRU and London Scottish; either the RFU can't legally prevent it, or they are willing to permit at least some sort of relationship

http://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2016/01/sru-and-london-scottish-announce-partnership/

That is a step below the suggested arrangement mind. That said, I'd have thought something like this would be more use to Irish rugby than trying to get a team to the AP.

RedemptionZ

I just don't think it's feasible at the moment. Perhaps some day but it would be unbelievably expensive.

Most realistic solution is probably to get a proper sevens team going and start playing in the World Series. Have some quota for young players and you'd be giving them pretty good exposure. Obviously though the 120kg prop might have some difficulty making the team so it's not perfect but it's the best alternative to a new province in a realistic sense.

Would take a long long time for the AIL's standard to be high enough that there isn't a massive gap between that and provincial level.

irishbucsfan

There's no way this can happen. The IRFU are not going to go anywhere near the liability that owning a club in England would bring. Especially someone like the Not Nots.

Then there's the RFU, who wouldn't want it. PRL, who wouldn't allow players to be released. And so on.

Then there's the question of whether it's even worth it. The A teams and the quality of the competition they play in is improving in standards all the time. Instead of investing outside the island we should look at ways we can expand that competition. I personally would love to see a 7-game interprovincial A league get a proper footing, they can play each stage right before the B&I Cup games to give the As a good run-in.

irishbucsfan

There's no way this can happen. The IRFU are not going to go anywhere near the liability that owning a club in England would bring. Especially someone like the Not Nots.

Then there's the RFU, who wouldn't want it. PRL, who wouldn't allow players to be released. And so on.

Then there's the question of whether it's even worth it. The A teams and the quality of the competition they play in is improving in standards all the time. Instead of investing outside the island we should look at ways we can expand that competition. I personally would love to see a 7-game interprovincial A league get a proper footing, they can play each stage right before the B&I Cup games to give the As a good run-in.

rsh118

I'm definitely there on the need for a solid and more inter-pro-y 'A' league, but I guess the sort of player I'm thinking of is the type 'too good' for 'A' or AIL, and dying to test themselves against top flight opposition.

Maybe that is too kind to the Aviva, but there are quite a few players stuck just behind the 1st or 2nd choice not doing much, cf Ulster's 500 centres or Leinsters 40 back rowers.

NiallBoo

Is there anything to be said for pretending that wexford is in very north-west France?

errlloyd

New Zealand have 5 super rugby franchises and produce way more top level talent than we do. I know they have provincial rugby beneath that at a pro level, but I guess I'd like to get to their level. 4 solid provinces, and then top level rugby underneath

rsh118

errlloyd wrote: »

New Zealand have 5 super rugby franchises and produce way more top level talent than we do. I know they have provincial rugby beneath that at a pro level, but I guess I'd like to get to their level. 4 solid provinces, and then top level rugby underneath

That would be the dream definitely. We totally need to build the image and culture around the AIL. ITM has the advantage of being fairly well supported. It rarely gets the passion until the latter stages, but it would be amazing to have here.

I've always enjoyed the croissants around Fethard...

NiallBoo

rsh118 wrote: »

but there are quite a few players stuck just behind the 1st or 2nd choice not doing much, cf Ulster's 500 centres or Leinsters 40 back rowers.

More frequent transfers between provinces would help this a lot.

rsh118

NiallBoo wrote: »

More frequent transfers between provinces would help this a lot.

I hope that's what we are seeing develop with Nucifora, but I also fear that there are a lot of players whose loyalty to their province is too intense to ever posit a move to a rival and who would rather wait it out at home.

At least a team in another competition is 'neutral' as such and London isn't a bad place to live for a couple of years...

errlloyd

EOS suggested in an article recently that one of the problems was the calendar mix going on in the NH - and I agree with him, I think we modelled our season based on football, and it kind of sucks.

Typical season is like

Block of P12
2 Games of Europe
Block of p12
International autumn tests
Block of p12
2 Games of Europe
Block of p12
2 Games of Europe
Block of p12
5 games of international rugby, interlaced with some P12
Block of p12
1 game of europe
Block of p12
1 game of europe
Block of p12
1 game of europe
P12 knockouts
International summer tours.

I'd be interested in seeing something more like this.


Mid August - Early Feb Pro 12 Rounds 1-22
November Ais Rounds 1-4
February - Mid March 6 Nations Round 1-5
Mid March - April Pro 12 Knockouts
April - June Europe 9 weeks
June Internationals
July - Mid August Players off


Basically any combination of that. I don't think it's feasible in France though, 26 game regular season and 3 game post season is pretty mental.

LeinsterDub

9 solid weeks of European rugby. Sounds tedious especially when your side is knocked out on week 2

errlloyd

LeinsterDub wrote: »

9 solid weeks of European rugby. Sounds tedious especially when your side is knocked out on week 2

I think it would be preferable to the current set up, clubs would be coming to the end of their season, so they would have no incentive to rest players when they were "out", I think the dead rubber games would be better.

But, you have a good point, maybe do H/Cup pool stages right after the 6N, then domestic knockouts, then European knockouts.

NiallBoo

Nice plan and I'd love to see it some time in the future.

I think one of the big things it would depend on is a good sub-provincial competition (AIL premiership let's call it) otherwise the fringe players are going to have a lot of free time/time spent playing a much lower standard of rugby.
Of course, I think that's worth doing anyway.

rsh118

Not to keep harping back to NZ, but the season follows a similar structure there, except of course it's Super Rugby first, then ITM. Internationals still happen in-season however.

We could definitely do with a re-structuring approach which segments the season. Who in their right mind is going to go to an AIL game when there'll be an inter-pro the next night!

razorblunt

Edinburgh do a somewhat "lite" version of this where a lot of their young bench options get sent down to London Scottish, they seem to have some agreement with Bristol too, wonder is it a link to Robinson?

rsh118

razorblunt wrote: »

Edinburgh do a somewhat "lite" version of this where a lot of their young bench options get sent down to London Scottish, they seem to have some agreement with Bristol too, wonder is it a link to Robinson?

Even that would be better than letting so many players slip between the cracks of the system.

I think a team with a remit to play as they want without the pressure you have at say Harlequins would be likely to build an attacking game which might Do well.

former total

It might be a lot more cost-effective to just employ a few coaches as part-time scouts and to watch the guys in England and France more often, to assure young guys moving abroad for game time that they are not forgotten (but to actually mean it, instead of the current lip service).

Winters

To expand on your "modest proposal"

Here's an idea..

The SRU link up with London Scottish, WRU link up with London Welsh and the IRFU link up with London Irish (Amateur).

Then the three unions buy London Irish (Pro) and rename it "London Exiles". The three amateur teams would stay in the RFU Championship and act as feeder teams to the pro club using both players from the three unions as well as union eligible players from the exile system in England.

So now you have Paddy's day matches, St. David's day matches as well as St. Andrew's day matches. Just think of the sessions!

rsh118

Winters wrote: »

To expand on your "modest proposal"

Here's an idea..

The SRU link up with London Scottish, WRU link up with London Welsh and the IRFU link up with London Irish (Amateur).

Then the three unions buy London Irish (Pro) and rename it "London Exiles". The three amateur teams would stay in the RFU Championship and act as feeder teams to the pro club using both players from the three unions as well as union eligible players from the exile system in England.

So now you have Paddy's day matches, St. David's day matches as well as St. Andrew's day matches. Just think of the sessions!

My god, it's chaotically beautiful. I was definitely being greedy with my thinking!

Just anything would be better than young talent going abroad with no link back. You certainly feel some loyalty to the employer who'll pick you up when no one else will.