A Modest Proposal

rsh118

This may be utter madness and excuse me if that is the case. Equally excuse me if this thread has been done before, I searched to no avail.

I propose that the IRFU in the interests of keeping a larger amount of talent on its books should either buy London Irish or enter a team in English rugby to work its way up to the Aviva.

Hear me out on this. I know Connacht was for this originally, but they are getting too good to be worth torpedoing when they may earn more money playing through the CC.

Argentina ran a team in the Currie Cup to keep their youngsters ticking over and were very successful in doing so.

The team would have to be self-financing but would have a conveyor belt of young Irish talent flowing in, and would have a chance to start breaking the bottle-neck between academy level and playing for the provinces. I know it would reduce depth a little in the provinces, but would be a godsend for every 3rd and 4th string player considering an offer from Pro D2. After all many amazing players in US sports have come from the bottom of the drafts where nobody predicted any success for them.

Please, someone shoot me down before I really start thinking this is a great idea.

errlloyd

I think I'd rather eat my own children to be honest.

LeinsterDub

Already have it. Called Leinster 'A'

racso1975

errlloyd wrote: »

I think I'd rather eat my own children to be honest.

Well that's hardly a constructive response!!!

errlloyd

racso1975 wrote: »

Well that's hardly a constructive response!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

racso1975

errlloyd wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

My ignorance. Apologies

rsh118

errlloyd wrote: »

I think I'd rather eat my own children to be honest.

Well they'll never win a European Cup in that state. Kudos on your swift response.

NiallBoo

I actually quite like where you're coming from with this. There's certainly too a gap there to be filled.
AIL isn't good enough and Provincial A teams don't play often enough or against good enough opposition.

Outsourcing the team to a league nobody gives a damn about like the premiership certainly has its merits.

To me the biggest drawback is that I wouldn't want developing players playing the terrible rugby that's mandatory in the aviva.

Anyway - a more obvious proposal would be to try and actually make the AIL work properly as a semi-pro league. Can you imagine the kind of development players would get if it was anything like the standard if the NPC or Currie cup?

Other alternatives might be to split leinster into leinster/Dublin or Munster into limerick/cork and have 5/6 Irish teams in the pro 12.

Splitting Ulster into east/west Belfast probably wouldn't go quite so well...

jacothelad

rsh118 wrote: »

This may be utter madness and excuse me if that is the case. Equally excuse me if this thread has been done before, I searched to no avail.

I propose that the IRFU in the interests of keeping a larger amount of talent on its books should either buy London Irish or enter a team in English rugby to work its way up to the Aviva.

Hear me out on this. I know Connacht was for this originally, but they are getting too good to be worth torpedoing when they may earn more money playing through the CC.

Argentina ran a team in the Currie Cup to keep their youngsters ticking over and were very successful in doing so.

The team would have to be self-financing but would have a conveyor belt of young Irish talent flowing in, and would have a chance to start breaking the bottle-neck between academy level and playing for the provinces. I know it would reduce depth a little in the provinces, but would be a godsend for every 3rd and 4th string player considering an offer from Pro D2. After all many amazing players in US sports have come from the bottom of the drafts where nobody predicted any success for them.

Please, someone shoot me down before I really start thinking this is a great idea.

The RFU wouldn't permit it any more than the IRFU would allow England to run a similar team as a province here.

rsh118

jacothelad wrote: »

The RFU wouldn't permit it any more than the IRFU would allow England to run a similar team as a province here.

If that's the case, they can have Meath. We have space for one more province.

Isn't the Aviva handled by money-hungry PRL rather than the RFU? I'm sure we could bung all the right people while €500 notes are still in existence...

NiallBoo

rsh118 wrote: »

If that's the case, they can have Meath. We have space for one more province.

Isn't the Aviva handled by money-hungry PRL rather than the RFU? I'm sure we could bung all the right people while €500 notes are still in existence...

You're right, recent years have proved clearly threat the rfu are completely incapable of standing up to the prl.

English Lurker

jacothelad wrote: »

The RFU wouldn't permit it any more than the IRFU would allow England to run a similar team as a province here.

There is a partnership between the SRU and London Scottish; either the RFU can't legally prevent it, or they are willing to permit at least some sort of relationship

http://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2016/01/sru-and-london-scottish-announce-partnership/

That is a step below the suggested arrangement mind. That said, I'd have thought something like this would be more use to Irish rugby than trying to get a team to the AP.

RedemptionZ

I just don't think it's feasible at the moment. Perhaps some day but it would be unbelievably expensive.

Most realistic solution is probably to get a proper sevens team going and start playing in the World Series. Have some quota for young players and you'd be giving them pretty good exposure. Obviously though the 120kg prop might have some difficulty making the team so it's not perfect but it's the best alternative to a new province in a realistic sense.

Would take a long long time for the AIL's standard to be high enough that there isn't a massive gap between that and provincial level.

irishbucsfan

There's no way this can happen. The IRFU are not going to go anywhere near the liability that owning a club in England would bring. Especially someone like the Not Nots.

Then there's the RFU, who wouldn't want it. PRL, who wouldn't allow players to be released. And so on.

Then there's the question of whether it's even worth it. The A teams and the quality of the competition they play in is improving in standards all the time. Instead of investing outside the island we should look at ways we can expand that competition. I personally would love to see a 7-game interprovincial A league get a proper footing, they can play each stage right before the B&I Cup games to give the As a good run-in.

irishbucsfan

There's no way this can happen. The IRFU are not going to go anywhere near the liability that owning a club in England would bring. Especially someone like the Not Nots.

Then there's the RFU, who wouldn't want it. PRL, who wouldn't allow players to be released. And so on.

Then there's the question of whether it's even worth it. The A teams and the quality of the competition they play in is improving in standards all the time. Instead of investing outside the island we should look at ways we can expand that competition. I personally would love to see a 7-game interprovincial A league get a proper footing, they can play each stage right before the B&I Cup games to give the As a good run-in.

rsh118

I'm definitely there on the need for a solid and more inter-pro-y 'A' league, but I guess the sort of player I'm thinking of is the type 'too good' for 'A' or AIL, and dying to test themselves against top flight opposition.

Maybe that is too kind to the Aviva, but there are quite a few players stuck just behind the 1st or 2nd choice not doing much, cf Ulster's 500 centres or Leinsters 40 back rowers.

NiallBoo

Is there anything to be said for pretending that wexford is in very north-west France?

errlloyd

New Zealand have 5 super rugby franchises and produce way more top level talent than we do. I know they have provincial rugby beneath that at a pro level, but I guess I'd like to get to their level. 4 solid provinces, and then top level rugby underneath

rsh118

errlloyd wrote: »

New Zealand have 5 super rugby franchises and produce way more top level talent than we do. I know they have provincial rugby beneath that at a pro level, but I guess I'd like to get to their level. 4 solid provinces, and then top level rugby underneath

That would be the dream definitely. We totally need to build the image and culture around the AIL. ITM has the advantage of being fairly well supported. It rarely gets the passion until the latter stages, but it would be amazing to have here.

I've always enjoyed the croissants around Fethard...

NiallBoo

rsh118 wrote: »

but there are quite a few players stuck just behind the 1st or 2nd choice not doing much, cf Ulster's 500 centres or Leinsters 40 back rowers.

More frequent transfers between provinces would help this a lot.

rsh118

NiallBoo wrote: »

More frequent transfers between provinces would help this a lot.

I hope that's what we are seeing develop with Nucifora, but I also fear that there are a lot of players whose loyalty to their province is too intense to ever posit a move to a rival and who would rather wait it out at home.

At least a team in another competition is 'neutral' as such and London isn't a bad place to live for a couple of years...

errlloyd

EOS suggested in an article recently that one of the problems was the calendar mix going on in the NH - and I agree with him, I think we modelled our season based on football, and it kind of sucks.

Typical season is like

Block of P12
2 Games of Europe
Block of p12
International autumn tests
Block of p12
2 Games of Europe
Block of p12
2 Games of Europe
Block of p12
5 games of international rugby, interlaced with some P12
Block of p12
1 game of europe
Block of p12
1 game of europe
Block of p12
1 game of europe
P12 knockouts
International summer tours.

I'd be interested in seeing something more like this.


Mid August - Early Feb Pro 12 Rounds 1-22
November Ais Rounds 1-4
February - Mid March 6 Nations Round 1-5
Mid March - April Pro 12 Knockouts
April - June Europe 9 weeks
June Internationals
July - Mid August Players off


Basically any combination of that. I don't think it's feasible in France though, 26 game regular season and 3 game post season is pretty mental.

LeinsterDub

9 solid weeks of European rugby. Sounds tedious especially when your side is knocked out on week 2

errlloyd

LeinsterDub wrote: »

9 solid weeks of European rugby. Sounds tedious especially when your side is knocked out on week 2

I think it would be preferable to the current set up, clubs would be coming to the end of their season, so they would have no incentive to rest players when they were "out", I think the dead rubber games would be better.

But, you have a good point, maybe do H/Cup pool stages right after the 6N, then domestic knockouts, then European knockouts.

NiallBoo

Nice plan and I'd love to see it some time in the future.

I think one of the big things it would depend on is a good sub-provincial competition (AIL premiership let's call it) otherwise the fringe players are going to have a lot of free time/time spent playing a much lower standard of rugby.
Of course, I think that's worth doing anyway.

rsh118

Not to keep harping back to NZ, but the season follows a similar structure there, except of course it's Super Rugby first, then ITM. Internationals still happen in-season however.

We could definitely do with a re-structuring approach which segments the season. Who in their right mind is going to go to an AIL game when there'll be an inter-pro the next night!

razorblunt

Edinburgh do a somewhat "lite" version of this where a lot of their young bench options get sent down to London Scottish, they seem to have some agreement with Bristol too, wonder is it a link to Robinson?

rsh118

razorblunt wrote: »

Edinburgh do a somewhat "lite" version of this where a lot of their young bench options get sent down to London Scottish, they seem to have some agreement with Bristol too, wonder is it a link to Robinson?

Even that would be better than letting so many players slip between the cracks of the system.

I think a team with a remit to play as they want without the pressure you have at say Harlequins would be likely to build an attacking game which might Do well.

former total

It might be a lot more cost-effective to just employ a few coaches as part-time scouts and to watch the guys in England and France more often, to assure young guys moving abroad for game time that they are not forgotten (but to actually mean it, instead of the current lip service).

Winters

To expand on your "modest proposal"

Here's an idea..

The SRU link up with London Scottish, WRU link up with London Welsh and the IRFU link up with London Irish (Amateur).

Then the three unions buy London Irish (Pro) and rename it "London Exiles". The three amateur teams would stay in the RFU Championship and act as feeder teams to the pro club using both players from the three unions as well as union eligible players from the exile system in England.

So now you have Paddy's day matches, St. David's day matches as well as St. Andrew's day matches. Just think of the sessions!

rsh118

Winters wrote: »

To expand on your "modest proposal"

Here's an idea..

The SRU link up with London Scottish, WRU link up with London Welsh and the IRFU link up with London Irish (Amateur).

Then the three unions buy London Irish (Pro) and rename it "London Exiles". The three amateur teams would stay in the RFU Championship and act as feeder teams to the pro club using both players from the three unions as well as union eligible players from the exile system in England.

So now you have Paddy's day matches, St. David's day matches as well as St. Andrew's day matches. Just think of the sessions!

My god, it's chaotically beautiful. I was definitely being greedy with my thinking!

Just anything would be better than young talent going abroad with no link back. You certainly feel some loyalty to the employer who'll pick you up when no one else will.

The Lost Sheep

rsh118 wrote: »

This may be utter madness and excuse me if that is the case. Equally excuse me if this thread has been done before, I searched to no avail.

I propose that the IRFU in the interests of keeping a larger amount of talent on its books should either buy London Irish or enter a team in English rugby to work its way up to the Aviva.

Hear me out on this. I know Connacht was for this originally, but they are getting too good to be worth torpedoing when they may earn more money playing through the CC.

Argentina ran a team in the Currie Cup to keep their youngsters ticking over and were very successful in doing so.

The team would have to be self-financing but would have a conveyor belt of young Irish talent flowing in, and would have a chance to start breaking the bottle-neck between academy level and playing for the provinces. I know it would reduce depth a little in the provinces, but would be a godsend for every 3rd and 4th string player considering an offer from Pro D2. After all many amazing players in US sports have come from the bottom of the drafts where nobody predicted any success for them.

Please, someone shoot me down before I really start thinking this is a great idea.

We wouldn't be allowed by RFU/PRL. Expanding the A teams is a way of getting more games in provincial system but then that affects the AIL. Provinces have more control with more A games but do we affect the clubs more when they need all the support they can get?
The Aviva is not a Union ran league so it would be very difficult for us to take part and we shouldn't really.

NiallBoo wrote: »

I actually quite like where you're coming from with this. There's certainly too a gap there to be filled.
AIL isn't good enough and Provincial A teams don't play often enough or against good enough opposition.

Outsourcing the team to a league nobody gives a damn about like the premiership certainly has its merits.

To me the biggest drawback is that I wouldn't want developing players playing the terrible rugby that's mandatory in the aviva.

Anyway - a more obvious proposal would be to try and actually make the AIL work properly as a semi-pro league. Can you imagine the kind of development players would get if it was anything like the standard if the NPC or Currie cup?

Other alternatives might be to split leinster into leinster/Dublin or Munster into limerick/cork and have 5/6 Irish teams in the pro 12.

Splitting Ulster into east/west Belfast probably wouldn't go quite so well...

AIl is good enough and you have to consider the lack of resources put into it and how it could be utilised better than it currently is. We don't have the depth of NZ/SA and I don't see any way that we will unless the overall base of players continues to expand and both overall numbers at kids/youths/schools levels increase and that increase follows on to the adult game and we have significantly more playing at all levels of the game. The support isn't there for splitting the provinces. Munster have enough issues with getting crowds etc for the whole province never mind if you split it in two.

rsh118 wrote: »

If that's the case, they can have Meath. We have space for one more province.

Isn't the Aviva handled by money-hungry PRL rather than the RFU? I'm sure we could bung all the right people while €500 notes are still in existence...

We don't have the space for another province. Our 4th province is only really getting going now and we're how long into the pro era. A 5th provincial side is a non runner.

Winters

Before we get into any comparisons between the Irish system and the NZ system it is helpful to know that the semi pro ITM teams are representative provincial sides just like our own provinces. It is a closed shop two tier system like the Currie Cup I believe. A Super Rugby team in Ireland would sit between the provinces and the national team like a Ulster/Leinster select side.

The AIL clubs in Ireland are not a fair comparison to the ITM or Currie sides. All clubs in NZ operate within their provinces on a strictly amateur and local level but im open to correction on that.

The AIL is the top of the whole Irish club rugby pyramid. Conceivably a junior club could be AIL champs in a few years time and then back to amateur obscurity in the same amount of time which is unsustainable if you were to try and introduce professional players into that. Conceivably the only way would be to maintain central provincial contracts with the players leased to their clubs.

Remember in all of this that Irish clubs and schools are the IRFU shareholders. One vote each. Some shareholders may find the amateur/semi pro balance unfair and the big clubs could breakaway and then we'll all be Welsh.

rsh118

Winters wrote: »

Before we get into any comparisons between the Irish system and the NZ system it is helpful to know that the semi pro ITM teams are representative provincial sides just like our own provinces. It is a closed shop two tier system like the Currie Cup I believe. A Super Rugby team in Ireland would sit between the provinces and the national team like a Ulster/Leinster select side.

The AIL clubs in Ireland are not a fair comparison to the ITM or Currie sides. All clubs in NZ operate within their provinces on a strictly amateur and local level but im open to correction on that.

The AIL is the top of the whole Irish club rugby pyramid. Conceivably a junior club could be AIL champs in a few years time and then back to amateur obscurity in the same amount of time which is unsustainable if you were to try and introduce professional players into that. Conceivably the only way would be to maintain central provincial contracts with the players leased to their clubs.

Remember in all of this that Irish clubs and schools are the IRFU shareholders. One vote each. Some shareholders may find the amateur/semi pro balance unfair and the big clubs could breakaway and then we'll all be Welsh.

Yeah you are right, I've definitely been shoe-horning one system into the other when they don't quite align, largely because the Super teams cover a collection of ITM provinces (supposedly).

One driver of interest in AIL though would be the not-quite-internationals or former internationals playing for local sides and mixing with the amateurs.

One of the benefits I saw in the NZ system is how close the top of the amateur is with the professional. It's completely normal to see out of favour all blacks playing for their ITM side alongside amateurs who are working 9-5 at the same time.

Also creates a pathway to pro while making for exciting rugby because oddly enough Cory Jane can make mincemeat of some of the amateurs he comes up against. Thinking aloud here...

The Lost Sheep

Winters wrote: »

Before we get into any comparisons between the Irish system and the NZ system it is helpful to know that the semi pro ITM teams are representative provincial sides just like our own provinces. It is a closed shop two tier system like the Currie Cup I believe. A Super Rugby team in Ireland would sit between the provinces and the national team like a Ulster/Leinster select side.

The AIL clubs in Ireland are not a fair comparison to the ITM or Currie sides. All clubs in NZ operate within their provinces on a strictly amateur and local level but im open to correction on that.

The AIL is the top of the whole Irish club rugby pyramid. Conceivably a junior club could be AIL champs in a few years time and then back to amateur obscurity in the same amount of time which is unsustainable if you were to try and introduce professional players into that. Conceivably the only way would be to maintain central provincial contracts with the players leased to their clubs.

Remember in all of this that Irish clubs and schools are the IRFU shareholders. One vote each. Some shareholders may find the amateur/semi pro balance unfair and the big clubs could breakaway and then we'll all be Welsh.

Of course AIL cant be compared to ITM/Currie Cup. The whole system is completely different.
Would the case in NZ be more like if we had 32 county teams and they took part In ITM Cup and then the provinces took part in Champions Cup

Just look at County Carlow rugby club. Won leinster junior league 1997, won AIL division 4 in 1997/1998, got to division 1 in 01/02, played division 1 for 4 seasons. went back junior for 10-11 season. Now currently playing division 2A(3rd division) of the Leinster junior league.
If only the voting system was like that and one vote each but it isn't the case at all.

The Black Stags

Just a passing thought; but rather than England... why not Australia? God knows there are plenty of us out there. The weather is nice and it'll give guys an opportunity to play that fast flowing free rugby we all like to watch.


ARU has no money and their own national league has plenty of room to expand.

rsh118

The Black Stags wrote: »

Just a passing thought; but rather than England... why not Australia? God knows there are plenty of us out there. The weather is nice and it'll give guys an opportunity to play that fast flowing free rugby we all like to watch.


ARU has no money and their own national league has plenty of room to expand.

Ah now, we don't want it to be anywhere too nice!

Winters

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

If only the voting system was like that and one vote each but it isn't the case at all.

I meant "share" rather than vote so my apologies.

errlloyd

While we're all in fantasy land, I think we should set up an academy on the grounds of the Irish embassy in Samoa. Players in that academy would be on Irish soil and it would count towards residency, they could complete in the ITM cup in New Zealand as an extra team. Irish lads not quite making the cut here could go down to Samoa and learn the trade off the locals. Developing a new generation of massive, good offloading, Irish Samoans.

NiallBoo

I didn't mean to criticise the AIL for being where it is, I think it does pretty well considering how neglected (hamstrung even?) it is by the union.
Most clubs are busy just keeping their doors open and don't have the time/money/expertise to grow the league.

I think if the union were to step in and invest heavily in creating a healthy semi-pro league then there would be massive benefits for everyone.

Would it be easy, quick or cheap? No, but IMO worth it.

Big investments in things like marketing of the league, broadcasting, player retention/development and match-day facilities would all be needed.
It's crucial that you really give people something to get excited about!

I can't say what the best form would be. The obvious options would be

A: AIL premiership, essentially existing structure but investing in marketing, broadcasting facilities to get people interested, grow supporter numbers and help earn back money to sustain a semi-pro base.

B: regional rugby, 10/12/16? teams broken up primarily on a population/player number basis. Same investments needed as above but simpler and more stable, but possibly further torpedoing the existing clubs. (Counties wouldn't work as there's to great a Mismatch)

Extra thought: ground-sharing with "top" soccer clubs could be a crafty move here as they've got good facilities of about the right size and will be keen to take on partners to help them develop.

Anyway, they're just things I'd like to see.

Note: according to the figures, ireland has more rugby players than new Zealand. And yes, I'm sceptical about how those figures work too...but the bottom line is that there's plenty of interest, if you can tap it.

The Lost Sheep

NiallBoo wrote: »

I didn't mean to criticise the AIL for being where it is, I think it does pretty well considering how neglected (hamstrung even?) it is by the union.
Most clubs are busy just keeping their doors open and don't have the time/money/expertise to grow the league.

I think if the union were to step in and invest heavily in creating a healthy semi-pro league then there would be massive benefits for everyone.

Would it be easy, quick or cheap? No, but IMO worth it.

Big investments in things like marketing of the league, broadcasting, player retention/development and match-day facilities would all be needed.
It's crucial that you really give people something to get excited about!

I can't say what the best form would be. The obvious options would be

A: AIL premiership, essentially existing structure but investing in marketing, broadcasting facilities to get people interested, grow supporter numbers and help earn back money to sustain a semi-pro base.

B: regional rugby, 10/12/16? teams broken up primarily on a population/player number basis. Same investments needed as above but simpler and more stable, but possibly further torpedoing the existing clubs. (Counties wouldn't work as there's to great a Mismatch)

Extra thought: ground-sharing with "top" soccer clubs could be a crafty move here as they've got good facilities of about the right size and will be keen to take on partners to help them develop.

Anyway, they're just things I'd like to see.

Note: according to the figures, ireland has more rugby players than new Zealand. And yes, I'm sceptical about how those figures work too...but the bottom line is that there's plenty of interest, if you can tap it.

But this semi pro league. Who plays in it? Who will fund it?
What do you want done about marketing the league? How do you market it better?
If you were to have regional teams. How many? Where do you base them?
Would ground-sharing really work?
These are the soccer stadiums....
http://www.balls.ie/football/power-ranking-league-ireland-stadiums/235489

IRFU include a lot of kids who play in schools through the development officers and the 6/8 weeks programmes that development officers run and those kids don't play regularly with clubs. The figures are not as high if talking about those who play a season long 10-18+ games a season

English Lurker

To rain on the already rained on parade -

A Premiership club would have to pay Premiership salaries, or the guys you want to go there would simply reject the move and go somewhere paying Premiership salaries.

So either the club would get no one good and get relegated in short order... or you've created an entity that sucks up all the talent from other provinces at inflated wages because they pay more. Either way, it doesn't work, to add to the long list of other reasons it wouldn't work.


I do frequently wonder why the IRFU doesn't form a partnership with a perennial Championship club with the intention of sending talented Irish coaches (the weakest and seemingly most-neglected part of your development pathways imo) to get work and supplying them with maybe 4-6 guys a season (at most) who clearly need pro game time but aren't going to get enough of it in Ireland. Obviously I know why, you want to pour everything into your own development pathways, but it could be a useful and inexpensive halfway house to rent while building your own.


A Premiership club though? Good luck with that one...

English Lurker

To rain on the already rained on parade -

A Premiership club would have to pay Premiership salaries, or the guys you want to go there would simply reject the move and go somewhere paying Premiership salaries.

So either the club would get no one good and get relegated in short order... or you've created an entity that sucks up all the talent from other provinces at inflated wages because they pay more. Either way, it doesn't work, to add to the long list of other reasons it wouldn't work.


I do frequently wonder why the IRFU doesn't form a partnership with a perennial Championship club with the intention of sending talented Irish coaches (the weakest and seemingly most-neglected part of your development pathways imo) to get work and supplying them with maybe 4-6 guys a season (at most) who clearly need pro game time but aren't going to get enough of it in Ireland. Obviously I know why, you want to pour everything into your own development pathways, but it could be a useful and inexpensive halfway house to rent while building your own.


A Premiership club though? Good luck with that one...

rsh118

A championship club would probably be the most sensible thing in the long run. I'm sure if you tied National Team work to playing in Ireland as opposed to the Premiership side it would still be competitive.

Those central contracts are pretty tasty. It would definitely be absurd, but then there are unions who place huge bets on themselves winning a competition to cover costs which almost seems a bit mad!

Anyway, let's get a championship club for the minute then and if they get promoted all the better!

CatFromHue

errlloyd wrote: »

While we're all in fantasy land, I think we should set up an academy on the grounds of the Irish embassy in Samoa. Players in that academy would be on Irish soil and it would count towards residency, they could complete in the ITM cup in New Zealand as an extra team. Irish lads not quite making the cut here could go down to Samoa and learn the trade off the locals. Developing a new generation of massive, good offloading, Irish Samoans.

Samoa?

It's all about Montserrat baby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QHYFXDGf4Y