DCC's plans for College Green

prinzeugen

KD345 wrote: »

The original plan is criticised for having potential conflict points between buses and trams at College Green, but all this new plan is doing is moving buses into conflicts elsewhere.

Let's be clear, the bus passenger is getting a very raw deal here.

The plan to re-route buses onto the already congested quays is baffling. A quick scan of the routes involved tells me over 360 Dublin Bus scheduled buses would be passing through Bachelors Walk between 7-9am. That's 3 buses arriving into Bachelor's Walk every minute. When you factor in the dwell times at stops it is clear this will lead to heavy bunching at this location. Remember too there will be Bus Eireann, private coaches, taxis and private cars using this section of road too.

Where it gets interesting is when you add in the traffic light sequence at O'Connell Bridge. The plan is for 20 trams per hour to cross O'Connell Bridge. That's a tram every 3 minutes added to the regular traffic and pedestrian signals. The trams ordered are longer than the width of O'Connell Bridge, so once a team gets a signal to leave Westmoreland Street it needs to clear O'Connell Bridge without stopping. If a tram misses it's signal you'll soon have a line of trams backing up.

This all leaves very little time for buses to pass through this junction. I don't believe there will be enough bus priority to keep the service running to schedule and I certainly don't feel there can be enough bus stops safely designed to cater for that many buses on the quays.

I'm very disappointed with the council on this and hope enough people voice their opposition when the opportunity is given.

For anyone interested in the routes involved, the 9, 13, 14, 15, 15a, 15b, 16, 25, 25a, 25b, 25d, 25x, 26, 27, 37, 39, 39a, 40, 49, 51d, 51x, 54a, 56a, 65, 65b, 66, 66a, 66b, 66x, 67, 67x, 68, 68a, 69, 69x, 70, 77a, 77x, 79, 79a, 90, 122, 123, 140, 142, 150, 151 and 747 would all be affected. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it's likely the 83 and 83a would be taken out of the O'Connell Bridge area completely.

This goes to show how ridiculous this proposal is.

Its a bit like forcing all the shipping that uses the English Channel to go round the top of Scotland.

And suggesting doing away with cross city busses and making people between bus stops on the north and south is even more ridiculous.

Hopefully the idiot that came up with the idea never gets re-elected.

Devilman40k

Murph_D wrote: »

Surely one potential solution then is to terminate crosstown routes before the chokepoint and allow transfer to Luas/Dart/second bus? (Or walk through to second bus - possibly quickest option for many). Trying to preserve crosstown routes is anachronistic.

Network Direct was designed as a cost cutting measure to join routes and create cross city routes. Undoing that will cost DB in terms of extra buses and manpower. Who pays for that?

Just as who will pay for the inevitable increased costs due to additional buses being required to meet service obligations if they don't undo ND changes

Dyr

Murph_D wrote: »

Surely one potential solution then is to terminate crosstown routes before the chokepoint and allow transfer to Luas/Dart/second bus? (Or walk through to second bus - possibly quickest option for many). Trying to preserve crosstown routes is anachronistic.

Given the congestion of buses in the bus lanes and the jammed up bus stops blocking narrow footpaths around Dame street, Dolier, Westmoreland etc street the network direct plan is already something of a farce

Certainly some sort of city centre termination would sort that out. Would also stop routes from being disrupted when O'Connell street is closed down every second weekend.

prinzeugen

Bambi wrote: »

Given the congestion of buses in the bus lanes and the jammed up bus stops blocking narrow footpaths around Dame street, Dolier, Westmoreland etc street the network direct plan is already something of a farce

Certainly some sort of city centre termination would sort that out. Would also stop routes from being disrupted when O'Connell street is closed down every second weekend.

The pavements being jammers at bus stops is a farce? To me it shows its working as people are obviously using the buses.

These passengers are going to be moved to already busy stops making them even more "jammers".

Terminating buses in the city won't work. With rents being so high people are traveling further to work.

For example the people renting below me (Rathgar) work in Drumcondra and chose here as,

A, it was cheap
B, because they could get the 16 to direct to work without changing.

monument

Bambi wrote: »

Ges to show the genius of dublin buses much heralded network direct plan in pushing so many routes through a single chokepoint eh?

Don't think they had much choice... nobody in the council was going to give them the priority elsewhere when they were given such priority at College Green with no trams.

Murph_D wrote: »

Surely one potential solution then is to terminate crosstown routes before the chokepoint and allow transfer to Luas/Dart/second bus? (Or walk through to second bus - possibly quickest option for many). Trying to preserve crosstown routes is anachronistic.

Trying to preserve crosstown routes makes sense because it takes up less space, allows for people going from suburb to suburb, less need for central driver switching etc.

KD345 wrote: »

The original plan is criticised for having potential conflict points between buses and trams at College Green, but all this new plan is doing is moving buses into conflicts elsewhere.

Lesser conflict points with far fewer buses at any one point at any one time, and it also frees up the conflict at College Green which will be good for both the buses and trams on that route.

KD345 wrote: »

The plan to re-route buses onto the already congested quays is baffling. A quick scan of the routes involved tells me over 360 Dublin Bus scheduled buses would be passing through Bachelors Walk between 7-9am. That's 3 buses arriving into Bachelor's Walk every minute. When you factor in the dwell times at stops it is clear this will lead to heavy bunching at this location. Remember too there will be Bus Eireann, private coaches, taxis and private cars using this section of road too.

It would be baffling if there was not already a plan to remove private cars from this Bachelors Walk (and the Liffey Cycle Route will reduce the volume of cars on the quays even further).

KD345 wrote: »

Where it gets interesting is when you add in the traffic light sequence at O'Connell Bridge. The plan is for 20 trams per hour to cross O'Connell Bridge. That's a tram every 3 minutes added to the regular traffic and pedestrian signals. The trams ordered are longer than the width of O'Connell Bridge, so once a tram gets a signal to leave Westmoreland Street it needs to clear O'Connell Bridge without stopping. If a tram misses it's signal you'll soon have a line of trams backing up.

You can't have it every which way -- you can't complain about the volume of trams and buses not being able to work at O'Connell Bridge when you tried to maintain that a very high level of buses and trams should have been made to work at the much smaller junction at College Green.

The trams, the main pedestrian flow, the north-south bus / taxi / bicycle flows can be handled all at once.

And there are already planned turning restrictions linked with Luas -- the reason why the new bridge went in and was designed the way it was to accommodate buses.

It's not going to be a walk in the park but it's nowhere as bleak as you're making out -- private cars take up a huge percentage of traffic on the quays and they are to be removed, that's key and other bus priority measures will be needed too.

KD345 wrote: »

...and I certainly don't feel there can be enough bus stops safely designed to cater for that many buses on the quays.

The long standing practice of parking of Dublin Bus' buses on the south quays will have to stop.

KD345 wrote: »

I'm very disappointed with the council on this and hope enough people voice their opposition when the opportunity is given.

It would be much more productive to shout for priority because shouting for the reversal of the plaza plan will only get drowned out by the massive support for the plaza -- I've seen read and covered a lot of disruptive projects and there's been none which has had this much support from the public, businesses and councillors.

Tarabuses

Mr.Frame wrote: »

But why the need to ban taxis ? Taxis are part of the National Transportation Authority. If taxis are banned it will be bad for businesses, hotels and bars ect
It will lead to taxis taking longer to get to a destination, leading to increased fare for passengers.

I do not understand this idea to give taxis access to this area and divert buses. Taxis after all are just chauffeur driven cars often with only one passenger. Buses are much more efficient users of road space and only stop in designated places. Inconveniencing the many thousands of bus passengers and then facilitating taxis is a nonensense.

Murph_D

monument wrote: »

Trying to preserve crosstown routes makes sense because it takes up less space, allows for people going from suburb to suburb, less need for central driver switching.

Preserving only makes sense if there is no workable alternative. Trying to shove buses through the proposed plaza when there is the realistic alternative of transferring to Luas and on to other bus routes makes little sense. People don't have a right to get from any suburb to any other suburb in a single bus journey. City centre termination doesn't have to involve more buses or driver switches - the buses can turn around and switch at the suburban terminus, or at the outskirts of city centre, where many of them already do.

Dyr

prinzeugen wrote: »

The pavements being jammers at bus stops is a farce? To me it shows its working as people are obviously using the buses.

These passengers are going to be moved to already busy stops making them even more "jammers".

Its not, its a bad thing, you have stops where the buses are boarding in stacks of three for a start (not supposed to be done but tell the drivers that) so buses are boarding about 80 feet away from the stop with no visibility of them at the actual bus stop.

Then you have jam packed bus stops on narrow footpaths blocking constant stream of foot traffic.

Its a mess

trellheim

Whoever thought this idea is a good one is off with the fairies.

leaving the trams and removing the buses is insane; there is really no other word for causing a massive snarl just so trams can go through ; the trams in this case will only carry a minority of people compared to bus. The car argument is there, yes, but even if cars were removed completely this would still be up their with the top DCC stupid decisions ; they have not provided sufficient arterial capacity for where people want to go AND where buses can get to.

I'm a massive fan of heavy rail ; trams also make huge sense when they are segregated and the modes dont bang into each other ; but this throws all that out the window.

Current Citadis is 43m or so and this will increase to 54.6 . As is famously know and pointed out above, O'connell bridge is longer than it is wider , approx 50m and so the new trams will overhang as as someone said above they can't stop on the bridge without blocking so you will get stupid delays for all like we do at Abbey St LUAS

For a carrying capacity of 369 per tram vs a DB AV of 91

20 trams an hour = 7380 at max loads

Using KD345s rough figure of 360/2=180 buses per hour

180x91=16380 ( and most of those are from where there's no chance of a LUAS so no choice at all) all you are doing is forcing this lot back into the car.
BXD should have been ditched for MN ..


Does no-one see the stupid here at all

most people I know still think you'll be able to get a single LUAS from heuston to sandyford FFS.

Best option would have been to dive underground at SSG and come up ... oh in the grounds of the Dept of Education on Marlboro street

segregation must be some sort of dirty word in DCC/NTA

monument

trellheim wrote: »

leaving the trams and removing the buses is insane; there is really no other word for causing a massive snarl just so trams can go through ; the trams in this case will only carry a minority of people compared to bus.

Trams and buses will share the route between Dawson Street and College Street / Westmorland Street.

A lot of your post and apparent anger seems to be misguided at the current plan, which is largely picking up the pieces of the planning system and the RPA/TII trying to maintain that trams, buses and even private cars would be grand in College Green.

trellheim wrote: »

The car argument is there, yes, but even if cars were removed completely this would still be up their with the top DCC stupid decisions ; they have not provided sufficient arterial capacity for where people want to go AND where buses can get to.

They still have yet to confirmed what priority measures will be included on the diversion routes. With Luas Cross City / BXD routed the way it was, it was a given that not everybody using buses would end up going exactly where they do now on current bus routes, and the plaza plan has strong public support.

trellheim wrote: »

For a carrying capacity of 369 per tram vs a DB AV of 91

20 trams an hour = 7380 at max loads

Using KD345s rough figure of 360/2=180 buses per hour

180x91=16380 ( and most of those are from where there's no chance of a LUAS so no choice at all) all you are doing is forcing this lot back into the car.

As per above, trams and buses will shared the north-south route along the west side of TCD.

Re "forcing this lot back into the car" -- car capacity is planned to be reduced across the city centre, could you please outline what a few examples of notable amounts of extra car trips?

Also just a small point but tram capacity for the new trams is said to be 379, not 369. And trams also generally have a better all-day loading then buses.

Do we know now many passenger trips Dublin Bus carries per KM? Luas carries ~32.4 million passanger trip per year on 36.5km of route -- and that's estimated to increase by 10 million per year along 6km with a number of mid to large large trip generators, current high density residential areas, and planned planned and current mid to high density residential areas close to Broombrige.

trellheim wrote: »

BXD should have been ditched for MN ..

Luas BXD was planned alongside Metro North, one would not have replaced the other. Two different services (far more stops on Luas) and one went to Broadstone / Grangegorman and then to Phibsboro and then the north end of Cabra, while the other route went to Drumcondra and then to DCU, Ballymun, the airport and Swords.

trellheim wrote: »

Best option would have been to dive underground at SSG and come up ... oh in the grounds of the Dept of Education on Marlboro street

Given the architectural heritage issues at both sites and the limited space at the north side suggestion, both of those locations would make for insane tunnel portal locations.

As I've stated a number of times -- Luas should have been diverted east around TCD or via its grounds of the everybody was on board with that.

trellheim wrote: »

segregation must be some sort of dirty word in DCC/NTA

In fairness to them, Dublin City Council and the NTA did not plan or approve the Luas BXD route -- that's down to the RPA/TII with funding approval from the Department of Transport.

trellheim

Cars aside - and I'm not one for removing them - I do think, though, they should pay through the nose for bringing your own motor in ; the odd time - and I mean the odd time - I need to bring my car in too rather than the rothar or the LUAS

The plaza idea in particular is muppetry designed to give tram priority over a massive bus/tram snarl that about 50% of vehices want to flow up ( and down ) Dame Street and will directly conflict across the LUAS tracks.

I suspect this was given to DCC and told to try and spin it positively . All the above AND removing buses down Dame St ? its like a dog that won't look at its own mess.

monument

trellheim wrote: »

The plaza idea in particular is muppetry designed to give tram priority over a massive bus/tram snarl that about 50% of vehices want to flow up ( and down ) Dame Street and will directly conflict across the LUAS tracks.

I suspect this was given to DCC and told to try and spin it positively . All the above AND removing buses down Dame St ? its like a dog that won't look at its own mess.

The plaza space as it is now was developed out of five or more independent complaints / flaws from the last design issued last year, as far as I know these include:

• the plaza was viewed not to be large enough and still too defined by the traffic flows,
• the bus and tram conflicts,
• the lack of dedicated space for cycling, including conflicts between cycling and buses, trams and tram tracks
• that there would be very little extra space on the already very crowded footpath along the south side of Dame Street - College Green,
• (surprisingly strong complaints) that the statues would have been moved from where they are now to the new plaza area

It's worth mentioning that there are a not a tiny group of people who would like to see buses fully gone from College Green and that was in some of the original and highly unofficial suggestions for such a plaza a few years ago.

aliveandkicking

Thinking out loud here but if the plan is to make Parliament St and Grattan Bridge two way why not go the whole hog and make Capel St two way too? Could Capel St - Parliament St become a two way public transport only north south corridor? Obviously it would mean getting rid of a lot of the on street parking on Capel St but could it be a runner?

cgcsb

Too narrow once you go north of the luas tracks.

prinzeugen

I am getting a laugh at some folks that say the plaza is "reclaiming" the city..

I think people need to look at why Dublin is built as it is.

College green was designed as a thoroughfare of horse drawn carriage, trams etc.

A to B in the easiest way possible.

I will be objection this idiotic idea. Cars.. Don't care. Buses. You are stupid.

And hipster, pro cycling blogs don't count for public opinion...

A referendum/vote is needed as social Media is getting believed by the idiots in DDC.

Imagine a tourist arriving in the barren waste that is college green post plaza.

They go to Temple Bar and stay. I have friends that visit regularly and love the fact Dublin is always busy. Always people about.

Now 100 people on a pavement is busy. 100 people on a open space is dead..

Cookie_Monster

prinzeugen wrote: »

I think people need to look at why Dublin is built as it is.

that doesn't matter because it's so far in the past to be irrelevant. what it was and what it is and what it will be are all totally different as the city as a whole evolves. A modern CC should not simply be a thoroughfare for needless traffic, it should be a place where people want to live and work and socialise. It's high time cities start to prioritise people and PT and push all other vehicles out, both for the environmental and social benefits.

I am getting a laugh at some folks that say the plaza is "reclaiming" the city..

well it is, taking space that is wasted on mostly pointless traffic and giving it back to people who live work or visit the area is reclaiming.

College green was designed as a thoroughfare of horse drawn carriage, trams etc.

really, source? It wasn't designed at all as a hub in the city for government and eduction at all?

I will be objection this idiotic idea. Cars.. Don't care. Buses. You are stupid.

buses are stupid? you don't care about cars clogging up the entire city centre currently?

And hipster, pro cycling blogs don't count for public opinion...

nor should they but cycling is both a very effective and enviromentally beneficial mode of transport over short distances and brings large overall health benefits

A referendum/vote is needed as social Media is getting believed by the idiots in DDC.

That's a really stupid suggestion. Why do you need to ask the entire population about a minor issue in one area of the capital? Lets have a referendum about the WRC or the cross on Carrauntoohil or one on what time the ferry leaves Rosslare every day

Imagine a tourist arriving in the barren waste that is college green post plaza.

They go to Temple Bar and stay. I have friends that visit regularly and love the fact Dublin is always busy. Always people about.

Now 100 people on a pavement is busy. 100 people on a open space is dead..

why do you suppose it will be a barren wasteland and that it would not be used for multiple things? Even restaurant and cafe seating like most major cities plazas throughout Europe.

monument

prinzeugen wrote: »

I am getting a laugh at some folks that say the plaza is "reclaiming" the city..

I think people need to look at why Dublin is built as it is.

College green was designed as a thoroughfare of horse drawn carriage, trams etc.

A to B in the easiest way possible.

Dublin's Grafton St... I think people need to look at why Dublin was built as it is...



NYC's Broadway at Times Square... I people think need to look at why NYC was built as it is...



It's a sick joke to try to claim we should keep the function and layouts much the same as now o 100 or more years ago or when ever. A city is not set in stone: it's a living urban area for the residents, workers and visitors of the time -- the ghosts of the past should not haunt them so much that they can't change a street's function or layout.

prinzeugen wrote: »

I will be objection this idiotic idea. Cars.. Don't care. Buses. You are stupid.

Cars are already largely excluded from College Green and a more extensive ban was only a matter of time once Luas CC was given the green light.

As for buses -- nobody is saying that.

aliveandkicking

cgcsb wrote: »

Too narrow once you go north of the luas tracks.

It is now but it was once two way before they widened the footpaths and introduced on street parking on both sides of the road. I remember as a child getting bus route 23 which via a two way Capel St. It was possible then so I don't see why it wouldn't be again.

LXFlyer

aliveandkicking wrote: »

It is now but it was once two way before they widened the footpaths and introduced on street parking on both sides of the road. I remember as a child getting bus route 23 which via a two way Capel St. It was possible then so I don't see why it wouldn't be again.

Bear in mind that the traffic that currently goes along the north and south quays is going to have to go somewhere if Bachelor's Walk and Burgh Quay are made public transport only - Capel Street and Jervis Streeet will both be two streets that will have to be available for the diverted traffic.

There is a limit to how much you can close down the city to traffic.

Also the 23 went north via Jervis Street and south via Capel Street.

cgcsb

aliveandkicking wrote: »

It is now but it was once two way before they widened the footpaths and introduced on street parking on both sides of the road. I remember as a child getting bus route 23 which via a two way Capel St. It was possible then so I don't see why it wouldn't be again.

The pedestrian environment was horrendous in those days wouldn't like to see it again.

BoatMad

prinzeugen wrote: »

I am getting a laugh at some folks that say the plaza is "reclaiming" the city..

I think people need to look at why Dublin is built as it is.

College green was designed as a thoroughfare of horse drawn carriage, trams etc.

A to B in the easiest way possible.

I will be objection this idiotic idea. Cars.. Don't care. Buses. You are stupid.

And hipster, pro cycling blogs don't count for public opinion...

A referendum/vote is needed as social Media is getting believed by the idiots in DDC.

Imagine a tourist arriving in the barren waste that is college green post plaza.

They go to Temple Bar and stay. I have friends that visit regularly and love the fact Dublin is always busy. Always people about.

Now 100 people on a pavement is busy. 100 people on a open space is dead..

Jaysus, I thought George Redmond was dead !!!!.

trellheim

Cars arent the problem here . I see this as one public transport mode - which doesn't carry the majority of commuters being given unneccessary and over-the-top priority through the centre

suicide_circus

If there's one thing Dublin city needs, its more traffic on the quays.
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/i-feel-like-im-taking-crazy-pills.gif

monument

suicide_circus wrote: »

If there's one thing Dublin city needs, its more traffic on the quays.
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/i-feel-like-im-taking-crazy-pills.gif

Context is important:



See: http://www.dublincity.ie/TransportStudy

BoatMad

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The trees have to go around there in order to open up the vista of a public plaza. At present the trees obstruct the views of the buildings. I'm sure they will put in some nice big flower boxes or something.

This is what it looks like today.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3446811,-6.2594742,3a,75y,203.16h,97.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sF5KoW26cAAchcOOiDmhRlg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

No trees such be touched in a city

trellheim

Banning private vehs from bachelors walk and Georges quay is ridiculous. Now and then you do actually need to make that journey in a car. And its hiding the real issue of too many PSVs through certain chokepoints

suicide_circus

monument wrote: »

Context is important:



See: http://www.dublincity.ie/TransportStudy

I presume this plan will coincide with massive and unprecedented levels of investment in Dublin Bus?

leshamry

Celtcia are offering a flight somewhere in europe if any one wants to enter the competition!

http://celtcia.com/blog/competition

monument

trellheim wrote: »

Banning private vehs from bachelors walk and Georges quay is ridiculous. Now and then you do actually need to make that journey in a car. And its hiding the real issue of too many PSVs through certain chokepoints

It's not at all ridiculous. It's in line with the move of pushing through traffic out of the core of city centres that has and is happening in a number of cities around the world.

The PSVs carry a very high volume of people in this area and, so, they are rightly being given the space to do so more effectively.

Do you have examples of car journeys this will effect? According to the city council, access, where needed, is to be maintained.

leshamry wrote: »

Celtcia are offering a flight somewhere in europe if any one wants to enter the competition!

http://celtcia.com/blog/competition

I'm not sure what the point of that is and I hope nobody confuses it with the upcoming and yet to be opened Dublin City Council design competition / tender which will decide the design of the plaza.

hmmm

monument wrote: »

Do you have examples of car journeys this will effect? According to the city council, access, where needed, is to be maintained.

What's the proposed alternative route for traffic heading to & from the IFSC/docks?