DCC's plans for College Green

cgcsb

If it were up to me, I'd send more of the George's st buses up Clanbrassil st., Make Capel St, Parliament st, the Christchurch end of Winetavern street bus only and add bus lanes to Greek St and North King/Bolton Street, allowing buses to easily do south west-north east routes. The routes to South East Dublin could use College Green, Westland Row and the double bus lane on Pearse St.

In addition make Bachelor's walk and City Quay bus only and implement pedestrianisation of everything between Grafton St and George's St with provision for cycling through routes and then remove cars from Geroge's st. This will require buying out of some of the car parks.

Spanish Eyes

crashplan wrote: »

This will cause chaos for cross city public transport. The many buses that use South Great Georges street and Castle street will all now go where to get to their destinations? Fair enough ban private cars from the area but blocking public transport is a very short sighted idea.

There is a price to be paid for enhancing the enjoyment of the city.

For buses that use Nicholas Street the plan seems to be to take them down Winetavern Street across the Liffey and up Ormond Quay.

For buses that use SG Georges Street the plan appears to have them turn left at the bottom of that street into Dame Street, down Parliament Street, across the Liffey and down Ormond Quay.

In due course those parts of the North Quays will be PT only as part of separate plan aswell.

It's not perfect, but buses will get to the city centre anyway.

AlanG

What use is a Plaza when two sides of it are going to be a fence at the front of a college and a fence at the front of a bank? we need a plaza but this will remain a place to walk straight past. Not worth the inconvenience unless they work some sort of deal with BoI about the bank building.

cgcsb

I'd like to see BOI gone out of the building and replace it with something like an upmarket department store. Perhaps put more windows in and remove the railings.

TallGlass

Why don't they just throw up a few foot bridges or make tunnels for the cars. A plaza, I can think of much better things to spend the money on!

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

If it were up to me, I'd send more of the George's st buses up Clanbrassil st., Make Capel St, Parliament st, the Christchurch end of Winetavern street bus only and add bus lanes to Greek St and North King/Bolton Street, allowing buses to easily do south west-north east routes.

That removes them all from the south city centre where much of their passengers are going. Look at the numbers boarding/alighting on the SCR and all of the stops between there and Westmoreland Street.

That just is not practical and flies in the face of providing public transport to where people actually want to go to. Anyone heading to St Stephen's Green or the CBD would have a much longer walk for example.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There is a price to be paid for enhancing the enjoyment of the city.

For buses that use Nicholas Street the plan seems to be to take them down Winetavern Street across the Liffey and up Ormond Quay.

For buses that use SG Georges Street the plan appears to have them turn left at the bottom of that street into Dame Street, down Parliament Street, across the Liffey and down Ormond Quay.

In due course those parts of the North Quays will be PT only as part of separate plan aswell.

It's not perfect, but buses will get to the city centre anyway.

I would argue that this is going too far - people have to be able to get around the city efficiently and effectively by public transport and need to be taken to where they want to go without the meandering detours you are outlining above that will involve major cross-city routes having to double back on themselves.

The current detour via Pearse Street has already had an impact on the peak vehicle requirement on certain routes - more buses being required to deliver the same level of service - this nonsense will mean the same. This costs money - will DCC pay for the extra buses?

Spanish Eyes

lxflyer wrote: »

I would argue that this is going too far - people have to be able to get around the city efficiently and effectively by public transport and need to be taken to where they want to go without the meandering detours you are outlining above that will involve major cross-city routes having to double back on themselves.

The current detour via Pearse Street has already had an impact on the peak vehicle requirement on certain routes - more buses being required to deliver the same level of service - this nonsense will mean the same. This costs money - will DCC pay for the extra buses?

There will be no Plaza if buses are allowed down Dame Street and into Westmoreland Street as at present.

If that is to come to fruition, I don't see any alternative routes other than those proposed in the draft plan.

Getting to Dame Street and College Green is only a short walk from the bottom of SG Georges street where it seems new bus stops are to be installed.

The buses that go down Nicholas Street will go down Ormond Quay, and into City Centre. Again, just a short stroll across the Hapenny Bridge to Dame Street and Plaza area.

The buses that go down Pearse Street will go down Tara Street and avoid the College Green area. That is a good move, there is no need for buses to go through College Green and Westmoreland St only to turn left onto Aston Quay, when they could use Tara Street and Burgh Quay.

I know it's not perfect, but at least it could be tried.

monument

starviewadams wrote: »

Buses are huge part of this city, more than Luas will ever be. This plan is going to be a nightmare for the already unreliable cross city routes like 13, 40, 27 which will presumably shunted down the traffic choked quays without a second thought. Sickening, but no surprising.

The city centre transport study includes having bus/bicycle/taxi-only second of the quays. This will more than free up space for the diverted buses and not all buses will be diverted.

The city centre traffic study has been widely discussed and reported on. It's not top secret.

starviewadams wrote: »

People can pretend they are in Paris or Barcelona on Dublin's few proper sunny days a year...

Same excuses were used in Copenhagen which has about the same rainfall and harsher winters than Dublin.

"We're Danes, not Italians, and we are not going to sit around in outdoor cafés..." was said before their extensive changes, but yet you can now find Danes in Copenhagen in outdoor cafes.

Speaking about Italians, a visits to Dublin's Italian quarter kills your argument without need to reference to Copenhagen.

prinzeugen wrote: »

As had been said 1000's of times before, this is Ireland, NOT Holand etc.

Most of mainland Europe was flattened during WW2 so this stuff could be built in.

You cannot do that in Dublin. Unless you demolish it first.

What on earth are you taking about? Did Amsterdam get flattened? Most Dutch city centres are have mostly narrow streets like ours.

Buses and trams shairing a small section of a route without private cars, without major junctions and without stops can be done.

seamus wrote: »

You and I are cyclists and big about enforcing cyclists' right to space, but this is one of the areas where one has to be more fluid with space sharing.
The cycle lanes will likely be somewhat advisory - the plaza will in general be a shared space where cyclists are not required to stick to the lanes nor pedestrians required to stay out of them. Cyclists will just need to slow down for the 30 seconds it takes to wind your way across the plaza and pedestrians will need to be accepting of bikes weaving in and out. There's no reason why cyclists and pedestrians can't share spaces like this for short distances.

Such shared space does not work and it's not just me saying that. Many local city councillors expressed this view yesterday, one or two citied Grand Canal Square as an example where there's loads of complaints.

There will be an even higher volume of bicycles on College Green and higher volumes of pedestrians in conflicting flows -- a mixing works less well, not better, at higher volumes.

crashplan wrote: »

This will cause chaos for cross city public transport. The many buses that use South Great Georges street and Castle street will all now go where to get to their destinations? Fair enough ban private cars from the area but blocking public transport is a very short sighted idea.

South Great Georges street - Left onto Dame Street - right onto Parliament Street - right onto the quays... And the reverse.

cgcsb wrote: »

Quays? sure the north quay cycle route will see buses permanently banashed to some magical mystery route around the northside's alleyways. Dublin City staff don't have to use buses they get free City Centre parking.

The only detour suggested is hardly an alleyway as it is wider than the same section of the quays and the that section is nowhere near this.

On the central sections of the quays, it looks like buses and taxies will be left with two or more lanes with private cars removed. The plaza detours means that's more likely to happen.

Spanish Eyes

Being discussed on Today with Pat Kenny on Newstalk now.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

I would argue that this is going too far - people have to be able to get around the city efficiently and effectively by public transport and need to be taken to where they want to go without the meandering detours you are outlining above that will involve major cross-city routes having to double back on themselves.

The current detour via Pearse Street has already had an impact on the peak vehicle requirement on certain routes - more buses being required to deliver the same level of service - this nonsense will mean the same. This costs money - will DCC pay for the extra buses?

That's like asking:

Will Dublin Bus pay for a rerouting of Luas Cross City so no buses have to be rerouted?

You know better than most that the planned plaza is partly planned to remove junction conflicts from the north-south public transport route along the west side of TCD.

If this was stand alone you might have an argument but there is a plan to restrict traffic on the quays and other sections of the city centre. The Parliament Street route is not even a detour for some buses and is a short 500m detour for Great George's Street routes.

As I've written before: Luas should have went around the east side of TCD (or maybe some fantastical route via the grounds of TCD). But it went the way it did, and we have to deal with that: if anything you should be asking will the RPA/TII or the sanctioning minister/government pay for it?

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

That's like asking:

Will Dublin Bus pay for a rerouting of Luas Cross City so no buses have to be rerouted?

You know better than most that the planned plaza is partly planned to remove junction conflicts from the north-south public transport route along the west side of TCD.

If this was stand alone you might have an argument but there is a plan to restrict traffic on the quays and other sections of the city centre. The Parliament Street route is not even a detour for some buses and is a short 500m detour for Great George's Street routes.

As I've written before: Luas should have went around the east side of TCD (or maybe some fantastical route via the grounds of TCD). But it went the way it did, and we have to deal with that: if anything you should be asking will the RPA/TII or the sanctioning minister/government pay for it?

I will not stop criticising this monument - I'm sorry I fundamentally disagree with you.


The detour around Trinity has already meant longer bus journeys and increased PVR on some of the routes to maintain the existing service despite a double bus lane - I don't see this being any different.


LUAS BXD is down to a political whim and this plaza and diverted bus routes without proper a public transport infrastructure in place is the same.


It's perfectly possible to fit four traffic/LUAS lanes on College Green without causing a northbound conflict for buses off Dame Street - the planners just don't want to do it.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There will be no Plaza if buses are allowed down Dame Street and into Westmoreland Street as at present.

If that is to come to fruition, I don't see any alternative routes other than those proposed in the draft plan.

Getting to Dame Street and College Green is only a short walk from the bottom of SG Georges street where it seems new bus stops are to be installed.

The buses that go down Nicholas Street will go down Ormond Quay, and into City Centre. Again, just a short stroll across the Hapenny Bridge to Dame Street and Plaza area.

The buses that go down Pearse Street will go down Tara Street and avoid the College Green area. That is a good move, there is no need for buses to go through College Green and Westmoreland St only to turn left onto Aston Quay, when they could use Tara Street and Burgh Quay.

I know it's not perfect, but at least it could be tried.

It's perfectly possible to have a plaza on the north side of College Green while retaining two bus lanes on the south side.

magicbastarder

cgcsb wrote: »

Avoiding controversy has left Ireland's largest airport without a rail connection. Avoiding confrontation has been the cause of Ireland's deteriorating public realm and infrastructure.

i really didn't phrase that well; what i meant was that i'm kinda dubious about DCC's commitment to making the city more pedestrian/public transport friendly because they've been ignoring easier, smaller and simpler changes for years, and then come out with a big bang change like this which they know will have the furious letter writers clogging the letters page of the times.

my usual bugbear/example in terms of making the city pedstrian friendly, in a way which will not impact shops is the south william street/castle market area. the footpaths around there are stupidly narrow, and could easily be widened considerably with the loss of only a small - single figures, probably - number of parking spaces. the local shops would probably welcome that. and why there isn't a pedestrian crossing on south william street between the back of powerscourt and castle market, and similar at the entrance to the george's arcade is beyond me.

in short, if the council want us to believe they're committed to making dublin pedestrian friendly, they've not done a great job so far.

Carawaystick

What will happen at this plaza that cannot or does not happen already at the many other open spaces in Dublin?

Smithfield, Wolfe Tone Park, the squares in the university of Dublin, or in Dublin Castle, SSGwest, any of the Georgian squares not in private ownership, etc

Carawaystick

What will happen at this plaza that cannot or does not happen already at the many other open spaces in Dublin?

Smithfield, Wolfe Tone Park, the squares in the university of Dublin, or in Dublin Castle, SSGwest, any of the Georgian squares not in private ownership, etc

Chivito550

Carawaystick wrote: »

What will happen at this plaza that cannot or does not happen already at the many other open spaces in Dublin?

Smithfield, Wolfe Tone Park, the squares in the university of Dublin, or in Dublin Castle, SSGwest, any of the Georgian squares not in private ownership, etc

Ever been to Federation Square in Melbourne? They put on tons of free public events there, nearly every weekend. They also put up big screens for the Australian Open and other big sporting events.

Ever been to any city square in Europe? Christmas markets take place in them for a good 6 weeks each year and the places are buzzing.

There's plenty of things you can do with a public square. It just requires initiation and imagination.

The other places you mentioned are either too small or not in the heart of the city centre.

Mr.Frame

hmmm wrote: »

This will be great - although I'd go further and get rid of taxi access.

The BOI building really needs to become "something" though - it's a wasted empty space as a bank branch.

Why get rid of taxi access? If that was to happen , your taxi fare will only increase

Carawaystick

Just for a comparison
Wolfe Tone square if you pave over the road to the west, is 3150m^2
The College green proposal is 4600m^2
Custom house quay from the loop line down to the next bridge is 4940m^2

Chivito550 wrote: »

Ever been to Federation Square in Melbourne? They put on tons of free public events there, nearly every weekend. They also put up big screens for the Australian Open and other big sporting events.

There's a permanent big screen in Meeting house square that's rarely used, probably little appetite to watch sport on telly outside.

Chivito550 wrote: »

Ever been to any city square in Europe? Christmas markets take place in them for a good 6 weeks each year and the places are buzzing.

6 weeks of use is hardly justification for causing major disruption to public transport 52 weeks of the year. There have been xmas markets in Dublin before.

Chivito550 wrote: »

There's plenty of things you can do with a public square. It just requires initiation and imagination.

I'm asking you to initiate and imagine specific uses that college green solves, that cannot be used in any other space in the city centre.

Chivito550 wrote: »

The other places you mentioned are either too small or not in the heart of the city centre.

SSG is the city centre.

Chivito550

Carawaystick wrote: »

Just for a comparison
Wolfe Tone square if you pave over the road to the west, is 3150m^2
The College green proposal is 4600m^2
Custom house quay from the loop line down to the next bridge is 4940m^2


There's a permanent big screen in Meeting house square that's rarely used, probably little appetite to watch sport on telly outside.



6 weeks of use is hardly justification for causing major disruption to public transport 52 weeks of the year. There have been xmas markets in Dublin before.


I'm asking you to initiate and imagine specific uses that college green solves, that cannot be used in any other space in the city centre.


SSG is the city centre.

Christmas markets are just one of the things that can be held in a square like this. Public concerts, food festivals, artist shows, live sport both on a big screen, and in the actual square itself (things like the Great City Games in Manchester and Newcastle work well, but the list of things you could hold are extensive). The options are endless really. It's about enhancing the city.

Places like the Custom House are devoid of soul, heart, character or whatever else you wan’t to call it. Having a Christmas Market out there is never going to be successful or atmospheric. I lived in Melbourne for 3 years and I can assure you that events like the above only work if they are held right in the city centre, where there is a vibe and buzz about.

Public transport is a concern, but if they plan to make the quays a bus only area, would this not work fairly well?

crashplan

monument wrote: »

South Great Georges street - Left onto Dame Street - right onto Parliament Street - right onto the quays... And the reverse.

So all the buses going back out Georges street etc would have to take a right turn off O'Connell bridge on to the south quays to access this route. Just moves the traffic crossing issue from college green to the quays.

listermint

crashplan wrote: »

So all the buses going back out Georges street etc would have to take a right turn off O'Connell bridge on to the south quays to access this route. Just moves the traffic crossing issue from college green to the quays.

Away from where your Tourists are walking... Surely that makes sense.

crashplan

listermint wrote: »

Away from where your Tourists are walking... Surely that makes sense.

But there will be more pedestrian's trying to access the bus routes from the quays with college green closed off and then there is the pedestrians crossing to the northside of the river and you have the luas and northbound buses that would need to be stopped.

Carawaystick

So, you have no specific thing that a College green plaza would solve that no other space in Dublin would?

Dublin has had public concerts in
College Green, Merrion square, both in the square and on the street at the Dead zoo side
Iveagh Gardens has held private ( i.e. pay in) concerts, Food Festivals etc


It's 650m from College green to Custom house quay. That's hardly "out there".

Carawaystick

So, you have no specific thing that a College green plaza would solve that no other space in Dublin would?

Dublin has had public concerts in
College Green, Merrion square, both in the square and on the street at the Dead zoo side
Iveagh Gardens has held private ( i.e. pay in) concerts, Food Festivals etc


It's 650m from College green to Custom house quay. That's hardly "out there".

Chivito550

Carawaystick wrote: »

So, you have no specific thing that a College green plaza would solve that no other space in Dublin would?

Dublin has had public concerts in
College Green, Merrion square, both in the square and on the street at the Dead zoo side
Iveagh Gardens has held private ( i.e. pay in) concerts, Food Festivals etc


It's 650m from College green to Custom house quay. That's hardly "out there".

Every other reasonably big city in Europe has a square right in the centre of their cities, which they make good use of. I believe we need something similar, right in the city centre. 650m away in a fairly dead part of the city doesn't cut it. So, instead of College Green where do you think such a square should be put, which will create similar vibes to what is seen everywhere else in Europe? Or do you simply think we do not need one?

I personally think it would be great to have an open square with free public events taking place each weekend. Something which will bring people into the city centre, and provide an alternative in the "things to do" category than to go to the pub! It's bringing our city into the 21st century, and more in line with our European counterparts.

pclive

crashplan wrote: »

So all the buses going back out Georges street etc would have to take a right turn off O'Connell bridge on to the south quays to access this route. Just moves the traffic crossing issue from college green to the quays.

left turn from Westmoreland Street onto Aston Quay is to be banned making it more pedestrian friendly and the City Centre plan will reduce the through traffic on the south quays

Idbatterim

fo the luas cross city and traffic lanes on college green, could they not have put a cut and cover fly under in?

Carawaystick

Idbatterim wrote: »

fo the luas cross city and traffic lanes on college green, could they not have put a cut and cover fly under in?

The planned (by planned, I mean delayed and watered down) Metro North is to go under there.



@Chivito550, What events which could be run in Dublin city are not run for lack of a "plaza" at College Green?

I've given a list already - Wolfe Tone square, Merrion Square, Dublin Castle, Meeting house square, St Stephen's green, Iveagh gardens, even Parliament Square.

If 650m is too far away ( and it's not - its across the river from the busiest train station in the country, 300m from O' Connell Street; nearer again to luas stops), how do you deal with re-routing bus stops almost as far away, i.e. from Dame st to Batchelor's walk?

If you put on a good draw, people will travel a quarter mile to it.

snickerpuss

I'm worried about where my Northside to Southside buses are going, i.e. 27, 27X, 15. How do I get close to the Grafton St/Merrion Square area which I can easily do now? Walking from the Quays to the far side of St. Stephen's Green or Baggot St will take at least 15 mins by the time I get around Trinity.

What was the point of cross city buses if they're going to sit on the quays half the morning and only go to the far end of Dame St or even worse up by Nicholas Street? And where will I get them home? Walk back to the Northside again? Completely ridiculous plan.

I think the bus is being neglected here in favour of the Luas. It's so frustrating because the cross city buses have been great to use the last few years. Before the cross city buses to get to a main part of city centre, (i.e. Baggot St, Earlsfort Terrace) it was necessary to alight at Amiens St and walk for 20+ mins and now we'll possibly not be far off it again if everything is rerouted.