Greece could be expelled from Schengen

bear1

Saw this on the telegraph

http://www.google.ie/url?q=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12119799/Greece-threatened-with-expulsion-from-Schengen-free-movement-zone.html&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjgz5np6sfKAhWBcSYKHVGRBQAQqQIIDjAA&usg=AFQjCNFWIZrMgiB1NzH_4mD8p8Yo3R6F1A

Basically the eu is thinking of moving the Schengen border onto the Greek/macedonian border in order to stem the flow of migrants.
Now, I cant see how this will do anything but make the problem worse as it will impede Greek citizens in travelling around the eu.
An absolute cock up by the eu and Germany coming out to say that the 3 billion euro promised to turkey is only a first payment. How many payments are they intending to give to the turks?
Utter madness.
It would make much more sense for the eu to suspend all further asylum/immigration etc until further notice due to the security threat coming from Isis. No one comes in then and any that do are sent back asap.
Turkey is going to make an absolute fortune out of this crisis and punishing Greece wont make a blind bit of difference.

MilesMorales1

Christ. What an absolute mess this is.

Irish Praetorian

Clearly we need to do nothing, make sure everything stays exactly the same, nothing is wrong, and if you disagree you're a big dirty racist.

Carlos Orange

Countries have a legal responsibility to take refugees so they can't just turn it off.

Irish Praetorian

psinno wrote: »

Countries have a legal responsibility to take refugees so they can't just turn it off.

We might want to consider doing away with that as well.

BattleCorp

psinno wrote: »

Countries have a legal responsibility to take refugees so they can't just turn it off.

Of course they can. Why can't countries say no more refugees?

What legal sanction is there if they don't take any?

bear1

psinno wrote: »

Countries have a legal responsibility to take refugees so they can't just turn it off.

Not true, Poland for example has refused to take any.
This should be something the world over deals with and not just the eu.
Shut down all immigration/asylum from these places temporarily so that the governments here can get a handle on things.
Turkey is just letting them slip on through to us and in return we've promised the turks billions.
If a boat is sent from turkey to Greece then the Greeks should send that boat right back.

Carlos Orange

bear1 wrote: »

Not true, Poland for example has refused to take any.

Like everything it is all in the details. Asylum seekers aren't the same as refugees and people moving from a safe country to a richer country are economic migrants. Fairly few people walk across a land border into Poland without transiting through many safe countries.

bear1

psinno wrote: »

Like everything it is all in the details. Asylum seekers aren't the same as refugees and people moving from a safe country to a richer country are economic migrants. Fairly few people walk across a land border into Poland without transiting through many safe countries.

But how many of these migrants are economic migrants? Which safe country have they come from?
My point though is that the eu should suspend any asylum/immigration etc due to the security risk.
We don't know who we have let in and what we have seen in the last few months are terrorist attacks in Paris, festivals cancelled in Brussels, sexual crimes in cologne and now stories of the same coming from Helsinki.
We cannot be the hospice of the world, this fcuk up has cost us all and it will cost us more.
The Schengen zone being temporarily suspended will have huge economical consequences.

Carlos Orange

bear1 wrote: »

The Schengen zone being temporarily suspended will have huge economical consequences.

Possibly but we aren't in it. No difference to us.

bear1

psinno wrote: »

Possibly but we aren't in it. No difference to us.

True, but it would still affect us.

suicide_circus

You can tell a lot about a man when you see him under pressure.

Same goes for an institution.

BigJackC

psinno wrote: »

Countries have a legal responsibility to take refugees so they can't just turn it off.

The majority of the "refugees" who come to Europe are not fleeing from war. They have left their home country for economic reasons. This has been said by EU Commissioner Frans Timmermans in an interview with the NOS in the Netherlands. You can absolutely shut them off and ensure that they come through the correct channels and mechanisms. There is a visa process for a reason.

http://nos.nl/artikel/2082786-timmermans-meer-dan-helft-vluchtelingen-heeft-economisch-motief.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/most-fleeing-to-europe-are-not-refugees-eu-official-says-1.2511133

my friend

psinno wrote: »

Countries have a legal responsibility to take refugees so they can't just turn it off.

No they don't

Fleawuss

The eastern expansion of the EU into politically and socially volatile regions is beginning to be seen as the disaster it always promised. The Balkans dragged Europe into the abyss 100 years ago: it remains a dangerous quagmire. Greece cannot defend its maritime borders and its economy is a contagion. Sometimes you have to leave someone out to save the rest.

FluffyMcCardy

As Big Jack says, many of these people, young men in particular are not refugees but economic migrants many of them apparently who think women are fair game. Real refugees should be be looked after but also remember sometimes there's a reason they've had to escape and they may not be innocent victims. Bear in mind that when IS is broken up as it surely will they will be fleeing in our direction because we're the only fools who won't line them up and shoot them out of hand.

People need to get real about this. The wrong people are already in Europe but it's nowhere near the problem it will be unless the EU starts to clamp down on the problem.

KomradeBishop

Nice - let Greece bear the entire burden of the migrant crisis - on top of the already massive unemployment, and deteriorated economic conditions - it's like the EU are deliberately trying to create a failed state there.

For the continental mainland, the Schengen area is one of the bigger-draws of being in the EU - what is the remaining point of the EU without it?

Failed currency union (its remaining purpose seems to be more aimed at controlling/hamstringing member state governments/democracies), failed union of internal-travel/borders - overall it's looking more and more like a failed project in growing need of dismantling (but which will only come at great economic cost). Should have stayed with the common-market/EEC.

Irish Praetorian

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Nice - let Greece bear the entire burden of the migrant crisis - on top of the already massive unemployment, and deteriorated economic conditions - it's like the EU are deliberately trying to create a failed state there.

For the continental mainland, the Schengen area is one of the bigger-draws of being in the EU - what is the remaining point of the EU without it?

Failed currency union (its remaining purpose seems to be more aimed at controlling/hamstringing member state governments/democracies), failed union of internal-travel/borders - overall it's looking more and more like a failed project in growing need of dismantling (but which will only come at great economic cost). Should have stayed with the common-market/EEC.

No I think what the EU is trying to achieve is to stop this unending influx of everyone and their mum through Greece and up into Europe. If we can't have an effective border at Greece then we will have to redraw one deeper in Europe. An EU free travel area does not mean free for the rest of the world as well.

The_Valeyard

Jaysus. It really is one gigantic mess. Eastern Europe is shaking fists at Russia, China is pretending their house isn't on fire and all is well, the middle east and parts of North Africa has nearly collapsed. Central Africa has boko harem, etc.


How's South America doing?

wendell borton

The EU does a deal with Turkey yet sticks fellow members in the back. The whole situation is a win for Turkey, they get to see their greatest foe destabilised and weakened.

Grayson

BigJackC wrote: »

The majority of the "refugees" who come to Europe are not fleeing from war. They have left their home country for economic reasons. This has been said by EU Commissioner Frans Timmermans in an interview with the NOS in the Netherlands. You can absolutely shut them off and ensure that they come through the correct channels and mechanisms. There is a visa process for a reason.

http://nos.nl/artikel/2082786-timmermans-meer-dan-helft-vluchtelingen-heeft-economisch-motief.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/most-fleeing-to-europe-are-not-refugees-eu-official-says-1.2511133

There's no visa process for here. You have to be employed by an Irish company before you come here or be a student. There's no way to actually emigrate here.

The Backwards Man

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Jaysus. It really is one gigantic mess. Eastern Europe is shaking fists at Russia, China is pretending their house isn't on fire and all is well, the middle east and parts of North Africa has nearly collapsed. Central Africa has boko harem, etc.


How's South America doing?

Not so good, there's a nasty virus doing the rounds over there that could have a major global impact, not least the need for the complete eradication of mosquitoes.

Chile is grand though, we should all move there.

Junkyard Tom

Does Ireland have a plan B? Do we have a plan to pull back from the EU and start using our own currency and all that stuff that comes with being a sovereign country?

If we don't we should. I think it would be in the interests of national security and financial leverage/sovereignty if the 'masters of mankind' in the EU knew we had some sort of 'fuck this - we're outa here' plan.

tomwaterford

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Chile is grand though, we should all move there.

Isn't there a WHV for there now??

RoyalMarine

Why not just let them all in to Ireland?

They can all move over here.

And we can all move over there.

Just leave the current government here and we can set up a lovely place there.
Lots of oil, lots of sun and we don't need to worry about 'the north' anymore.

KingBrian2

Europe needs a single passport system that Nations can opt in or out of. Different societies have different criteria and experiences of emigration. Applying to the whole of Europe is archaic. Poland, Hungary and Croatia don't need all these refugees. Britain on the other hand can take in as many as they like if they want. What can't remain in place is the Calais camp which is disrupting the flow of trade and ability of European citizens to move across the continent safely. Bulgaria is also in a state with all those Syrian migrants camping out desiring to get into the heart of Europe. They should be deported back to Syria.

The Backwards Man

tomwaterford wrote: »

Isn't there a WHV for there now??

Yep.

Very highly developed country, the California of the Southern Hemisphere.

KomradeBishop

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Does Ireland have a plan B? Do we have a plan to pull back from the EU and start using our own currency and all that stuff that comes with being a sovereign country?

If we don't we should. I think it would be in the interests of national security and financial leverage/sovereignty if the 'masters of mankind' in the EU knew we had some sort of 'fuck this - we're outa here' plan.

I think there was rumour of such a plan, as a last-ditch emergency measure, back in 2012 or such - given the potential for a Euro breakup - but I don't know if there's anything like this still actively in place.

A currency transition when stuck in something like the Euro, is a majorly destructive event, which can take beyond 6+ months to complete - and we'd be set-back economically for 3-5+ years (looking more and more like it's worth the cost though - as staying in the Euro, looks like it means ceding democratic control of the country).

If we could depend on the ECB not rendering our banking system completely non-functional, like they did with Greece last year, then we could start operating a parallel currency tomorrow (temporarily keeping the Euro as a side-currency) - and even use that to grow our economy and return to full employment.

The ECB rules Europe now though, and no government can run a parallel currency - thus restoring sovereign power - without the risk of the ECB doing what they did to Greece.

tomwaterford

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Yep.

Very highly developed country, the California of the Southern Hemisphere.

Is it??
Be the best way to learn a language IMO


When I think of chile I always think of them miners and the lad that waited until near the end to be rescued as his wife and the wan he was having an affair with were both waiting on him

KingBrian2

KomradeBishop wrote: »

I think there was rumour of such a plan, as a last-ditch emergency measure, back in 2012 or such - given the potential for a Euro breakup - but I don't know if there's anything like this still actively in place.

A currency transition when stuck in something like the Euro, is a majorly destructive event, which can take beyond 6+ months to complete - and we'd be set-back economically for 3-5+ years (looking more and more like it's worth the cost though - as staying in the Euro, looks like it means ceding democratic control of the country).

If we could depend on the ECB not rendering our banking system completely non-functional, like they did with Greece last year, then we could start operating a parallel currency tomorrow (temporarily keeping the Euro as a side-currency) - and even use that to grow our economy and return to full employment.

The ECB rules Europe now though, and no government can run a parallel currency - thus restoring sovereign power - without the risk of the ECB doing what they did to Greece.

Operating a new currency by massive devaluation. Greece knew the rules when they entered the Zone so did France and still they let spending get out of control. Regardless of the banks the gvt should have reigned back all the spending that was going on. Spain was every bit as bad as Greece yet they managed to achieve some balance in the economy. Even the wonderful Swedes and Finns have experienced economic problems and worked through them all by cooperating with the ECB. Greece decided to snub the offer to repair the damage caused by the previous administration.

fly_agaric

bear1 wrote: »

Saw this on the telegraph
http://www.google.ie/url?q=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12119799/Greece-threatened-with-expulsion-from-Schengen-free-movement-zone.html&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjgz5np6sfKAhWBcSYKHVGRBQAQqQIIDjAA&usg=AFQjCNFWIZrMgiB1NzH_4mD8p8Yo3R6F1A

I suppose its all moot. How can you threaten expulsion from something which has ceased to function properly? Schengen is going to be toast in practice by the end of another summer of migrant madness anyway, followed by BRexit from EU (if Cameron does not chicken out of holding referendum this year). That crisis and terrorism (or threats of terrorism) will almost certainly finish both off this year.

BigJackC

Grayson wrote: »

There's no visa process for here. You have to be employed by an Irish company before you come here or be a student. There's no way to actually emigrate here.

Yes, that's the way it works in most western countries. You get a work visa, a student visa or a spousal visa. Do you think that we should issue visas to people who have no work or reason to be here lined up?

Working holiday visas are the exception but you have to show you have funds to look after yourself to obtain the visa. And emphasise the word holiday.

c_man

Oh my god, the PTA has disbanded!

Corpus Twisty

Greece as the slippery slope.. they might have to take one for the team and become "last port of call in the EU" for "refugees". Be the first time they have done anything useful in ages. Fence it off, shut it down and breathe a sigh of relief. Have a peek back over the fence in 10 years time. Geography is a bitch.

They've been trading on the Classics for hundreds of years at this stage. Past glories are grand, but sure we were all great when we were kids. Think of it as "a new beginning" for Greece. Sure all the immigrants are architects and engineers anyway - it'll be an integrated "paradise".

questionmark?

psinno wrote: »

Countries have a legal responsibility to take refugees so they can't just turn it off.

The minute they leave the first safe country they arrive in without claiming asylum and move to the next they are no longer refugees they are economic migrants. Some poor family with nothing left living in a camp in Jordan/Lebanon/Turkey we could look at helping. A rich family who have paid thousands of dollars to cross Europe to get into countries like the UK and Sweden should be sent back and made apply for a visa like all other economic migrants.

questionmark?

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Britain on the other hand can take in as many as they like if they want.

Sorry but that's a silly statement. They don't need high numbers of unskilled workers. Their housing situation is creaking as it is, as is the NHS and school system with the pressures of huge population growth fueled by immigration.

bear1

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/greece-faces-being-sealed-off-from-rest-of-eu-over-border-crisis-34403403.html

Seems like the Greeks will be given 3 months to implement new changes, failure to implement them will result in a 2 year suspension.
My God...

bear1

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/greece-faces-being-sealed-off-from-rest-of-eu-over-border-crisis-34403403.html

Seems like the Greeks will be given 3 months to implement new changes, failure to implement them will result in a 2 year suspension.
My God...

Graces7

I am not a politician or economist but my heart goes out to the children caught up in this mess. The families. Yes the young men should be sent back. But let us care for the little ones.

Carlos Orange

Graces7 wrote: »

I am not a politician or economist but my heart goes out to the children caught up in this mess. The families. Yes the young men should be sent back. But let us care for the little ones.

Are you planning to boot the boys out when they turn 18?
Children have a terribly habit of growing up.

bear1

psinno wrote: »

Are you planning to boot the boys out when they turn 18?
Children have a terribly habit of growing up.

Ah come on, you know what the poster meant.

conorhal

Graces7 wrote: »

I am not a politician or economist but my heart goes out to the children caught up in this mess. The families. Yes the young men should be sent back. But let us care for the little ones.

So we're sending back 90% of the million or so that have arrived in that case? I'm actually pretty fine with that.

testicle

bear1 wrote: »

Now, I cant see how this will do anything but make the problem worse as it will impede Greek citizens in travelling around the eu.

Ireland is not in Schengen, I'm not impeded in any way in travelling around the EU?

darkpagandeath

conorhal wrote: »

So we're sending back 90% of the million or so that have arrived in that case? I'm actually pretty fine with that.

I think some have only watched agenda media, That strains to show women and children and the occasional disabled person. But as we saw in Germany these lovely young men just want to work and become the next Steve jobs due to most of them being engineers and highly educated. You know that German report stating most can't even read and write is just racist cherry picking.

bear1

testicle wrote: »

Ireland is not in Schengen, I'm not impeded in any way in travelling around the EU?

Not much no, but when flying into a Schengen country then yes we are slightly.
Passport checks instead of going straight through.

jimgoose

bear1 wrote: »

Not much no, but when flying into a Schengen country then yes we are slightly.
Passport checks instead of going straight through.

Good, and properly so. The whole Schengen notion is a load of cock.

bear1

jimgoose wrote: »

Good, and properly so. The whole Schengen notion is a load of cock.

Driving through Europe though makes it fairly handy.
I remember driving when one of the countries along the way wasn't in Schengen and the feckin queues at the border. Unreal.

Dyr

bear1 wrote: »

Not true, Poland for example has refused to take any.
This should be something the world over deals with and not just the eu.
Shut down all immigration/asylum from these places temporarily so that the governments here can get a handle on things.
Turkey is just letting them slip on through to us and in return we've promised the turks billions.
If a boat is sent from turkey to Greece then the Greeks should send that boat right back.

The Poles have'nt sponsored any coups or wars in the middle east, although they're members of NATO I guess

Britain, The US and France have. Let them clean up the mess they made.

The Backwards Man

bear1 wrote: »

Driving through Europe though makes it fairly handy.
I remember driving when one of the countries along the way wasn't in Schengen and the feckin queues at the border. Unreal.

It's not that many years ago that if you weren't out of the North by 10pm (or vice versa) you had to wait until the next morning until the customs officers came back on duty

darkpagandeath

Bambi wrote: »

The Poles have'nt sponsored any coups or wars in the middle east, although they're members of NATO I guess

Britain, The US and France have. Let them clean up the mess they made.

Germany to, How do you plan on making them ?

BOHtox

We need to build a wall and get the Muslims to pay for it

/Trump