Firearm Renewal Land Owners Permission

BattleCorp

Is there new paperwork needed when renewing licences?

I went into the Gardai last night to hand in my pre-populated renewals form for my rifle.

The Garda asked me if I used the gun for hunting, to which I replied yes. I told him that my two nominated landowners are the on the form and there has been no changes since.

He then handed me two copies of a form called "Firearm Renewal Land Owners Permission" to get signed by my two nominated land owners.

It's just a simple form that nominated land owners sign to say that you still have permission to shoot on their lands.

I've no objection to this form apart from the nuisance factor of having to go and get them filled in.

Is this new or are my local Gardai going on a solo run?

Cass

Sort answer, no. I've done all mine again in the last 4 months. All signed and returned. No additional paperwork (except the deer license for the stalking rifle).

There is no paperwork, as above, that is legally part of the renewal process. It's not on An Garda website and not in the firearms act. The FCR is pre-populated for this very reason. From the Gardaí in relation to the FCR:

All of their details, including the firearm, referees, G.P, land etc will be detailed on the form. As you can see, corresponding boxes are included to facilitate any changes for example in referees, doctor etc.

Your only reason to supply written permission with an FCR is if they have changed. If not you sign the FCR and return it. The only paperwork i've had to include was that years deer license for obvious reasons.

This is similar to when i put the young lad on a training certifcate. For 4 months i had no word from the local FO. When i went down he said he did not submit the FCA1 as there was no competency course certificate. I asked him how a 14 yr old can get a competency certificate for the competent and safe handling of a firearm when he legally cannot be in possession of one without my supervision. I also told him demanding a competency cert was counter intuitive to what the training certicate stood for. He insisted it was what the Super demanded. I made an appointment to meet the Super the following week, brought the young lad along, and low and behold no competency cert was asked for as in the words of the Super:

The whole idea behind the training cert is for younger people to be introduced into the sport of shooting under the supervised tuition of an experienced and fully licensed person.

My point is, more and more stations are taking i upon themselves to ask for things that are not needed or required. They balm the Super or FO of the district station (as opposed to the FO of the local station) and in 99% of cases "get away with it".

You could fill in the letters and save yourself that grief, but i would not. Not on principle, but on the fact it's not required. He cannot refuse to accept your FCR (you're not disentitled and are currently licensed) so if he persists i'd bypass him/her and go straight to the Super's office.

Cass

BTW i'm not opposed to that letter as it's very useful for FCA1, full, applications. Not for FCRs though.

German pointer

I would advise not signing this form as in my local station there is a trend by the super to limit hunting to the land you have written permission on only and no other land.
A lad I know of has a 22lr licensed only to his own farm and a deer stalker was limited to one farm (the one with written permission ) even though he has multiple verbal permissions to shoot on.
Under the terms of the licences it appears they can't even go to an open shoot on the shooting range or even to zero the guns.

Hunter456

BattleCorp wrote: »

Is there new paperwork needed when renewing licences?

I went into the Gardai last night to hand in my pre-populated renewals form for my rifle.

The Garda asked me if I used the gun for hunting, to which I replied yes. I told him that my two nominated landowners are the on the form and there has been no changes since.

He then handed me two copies of a form called "Firearm Renewal Land Owners Permission" to get signed by my two nominated land owners.

It's just a simple form that nominated land owners sign to say that you still have permission to shoot on their lands.

I've no objection to this form apart from the nuisance factor of having to go and get them filled in.

Is this new or are my local Gardai going on a solo run?

ah here this is a joke right.

BattleCorp

Hunter456 wrote: »

ah here this is a joke right.

Unfortunately no, it's not a joke. The Garda wouldn't take my prepopulated form without getting this signed.

I don't really want to have a row with them because I have an application in for another firearm but I don't want to be jumping through hoops because some asshole is inventing stuff.

aaakev

Thwy have rules to follow, they cant refuse you for not getting it signed, id politely decline

BattleCorp

I'll hand it in again tomorrow. There might be a different Guard there.

I hate people making sh1t up. If it's the law, then it's the law and I've no problem but not when it's makey-up crap.

German pointer

Another problem arises when they push the makey up stuff and lads accept it and then it becomes the norm because they think they can get away with it and before you know it you end up with them telling you how to wipe a certain part of your body.

Hunter456

BattleCorp wrote: »

Unfortunately no, it's not a joke. The Garda wouldn't take my prepopulated form without getting this signed.

I don't really want to have a row with them because I have an application in for another firearm but I don't want to be jumping through hoops because some asshole is inventing stuff.

wow that's simply pushing the power trip beyond another level do these lads now know law,the court route is advisable.

Cass

Hunter456 wrote: »

............. the court route is advisable.

No it's not.

There are multiple steps between where the OP is and court not to mention it's asking or a page to be signed and not a refusal. You cannot go to court to appeal a non issue.

Go back to the FO. Submit the FCR and ignore any demands for the letter to be signed. If he refuses ask for a letter from him stating his refusal and have one you've written as the FO will most likely refuse that too. If your FO is in the main station where all applications end up then go over his head and make an appointment with the Super. You are entitled to a meeting so don't be fobbed off with "The super doesn't meet people". Submit the form directly to the Super. If the Super refuses it then you ask for the same letter of refusal to accept. If the Super refuse this you have one with you, and ask him to sign it. If he refuses you leave.

You then contact any NGB you are associated to leet them know what has happened. You MUST keep a record of all names, ranks, times and places you've met people. Submit this with your complaint. Also contact the FPU and explain the situation to them.

IF all the above fails and you've a couple of grand in your back pocket you can then go to court. As there has been no refusal to grant the license (refusal to accept the application is not the same) you must show how the actions of the FO and the Super are outside the remit of the law, the policy of the commissioner as per the FPU, the intention of the FCR form as per the GGarda website and then ask for your application to be accepted as it is.

BattleCorp

Hunter456 wrote: »

wow that's simply pushing the power trip beyond another level do these lads now know law,the court route is advisable.

Whatever happens I won't be wasting money in court. I'll hand in the form again and see how it goes. If push comes to shove, I'll probably get the forms signed.

Is it worth ringing the Phoenix Park or something like that?

lakesider

No it's not.

There are multiple steps between where the OP is and court
not to mention it's asking or a page to be signed and not a refusal. You cannot
go to court to appeal a non issue.

Go back to the FO. Submit the FCR
and ignore any demands for the letter to be signed. If he refuses ask for a
letter from him stating his refusal and have one you've written as the FO will
most likely refuse that too. If your FO is in the main station where all
applications end up then go over his head and make an appointment with the
Super. You are entitled to a meeting so don't be fobbed off with "The super
doesn't meet people". Submit the form directly to the Super. If the Super
refuses it then you ask for the same letter of refusal to accept. If the Super
refuse this you have one with you, and ask him to sign it. If he refuses you
leave.

You then contact any NGB you are associated to leet them know
what has happened. You MUST keep a record of all names, ranks, times and places
you've met people. Submit this with your complaint. Also contact the FPU and
explain the situation to them.

IF all the above fails and you've a
couple of grand in your back pocket you can then go to court. As there has been
no refusal to grant the license (refusal to accept the application is not the
same) you must show how the actions of the FO and the Super are outside the
remit of the law, the policy of the commissioner as per the FPU, the intention
of the FCR form as per the GGarda website and then ask for your application to
be accepted as it is

Its the supers that are driving this.....

Cass

I have never seen that form until now. I've not been asked to sign it or anything like it. nor have anyone i know in the surrounding counties to where i live. So if it is a group of Supers orchestrating this then it's an issue for the FCP.

For now it's a single case. There is a process you have to follow. To skip any step would be costly (going straight to court) and possibly futile (hard to bring a court case against a non issue). As i outlined in my post above my local Sergeant (acting as FO) gave me a similar spoof story. When i bypassed him, went straight to the main station and spoke directly with the Super he contradicted the crap sandwich i was being fed by the Sergeant and proceeded in the correct manner.

Now even if the Super is doing this then you still need to exhaust each step so when it comes to the "make or break" point you cannot be accused of skipping steps and/or not allowing the process to be fully explored.

As i said above the OP could avoid all this by just getting the papers signed. I would not, as it's not legally necessary, nor a part of the application/renewal process. For the moment it seems one, and if your Super is different to the OPs, perhaps two are doing this. This does not indicate a policy shift by An Gardaí.

BattleCorp

This morning I phoned the Department of Justice. I asked to be put through to the Firearms Department because I wanted to ask them if there was new paperwork for firearms renewals.

Got through to one person who told me "The Gardai look after renewals, that's nothing to do with us".

So there, that was helpful.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

So there, that was helpful.

Did you try the route is suggested above?

Cass wrote: »

• Go back to the FO. Submit the FCR and ignore any demands for the letter to be signed.
• If he refuses ask for a letter from him stating his refusal and have one you've written as the FO will most likely refuse that too.
• If your FO is in the main station where all applications end up then go over his head and make an appointment with the Super. You are entitled to a meeting so don't be fobbed off with "The super doesn't meet people". Submit the form directly to the Super.
• If the Super refuses it then you ask for the same letter of refusal to accept. If the Super refuse this you have one with you, and ask him to sign it. If he refuses you leave.
• You then contact any NGB you are associated to leet them know what has happened. You MUST keep a record of all names, ranks, times and places you've met people. Submit this with your complaint.
• Also contact the FPU and explain the situation to them.

I've highlighted the FPU option as these should be your first point of contact if ringing anyone outside your station. The DoJ won't, as you found out, deal with day to day issues relating to firearms.

Grizzly 45

This should already be highlighted with our organisations for discussion on the FCP,whenever it meets again ,or starts to meet.Making the law up as they go along is not on.If it was an idea of somone to try and get a standard format on paperwork for permissions ,while very laudable,it has been handled badly with no information to the shooting public and as the saying goes about the road to Hell and good intentions.

barnaman

The OP is doing 2 things 1 renewing a firearm licence (based on a hunting need) and 2 applying for a licence to hunt with a firearm. The Guards are entitled to ask for the info asked for and is within their remit. The whole system needs an overhaul though. Just to add another poster said lad confine to land that had written permission but thats the system. I own and have the sporting rights to a fair bit of land but I cannot hunt that land without a licence, which the Minister grants have considered a written application.

Legislation below


2A) (a) An applicant for



(i) the grant of a licence under section 29 of this Act, or



(ii) the grant or renewal of a certificate to which section 29(5) of this Act relates,



may, before the granting of any such licence or the granting or renewal of any such certificate, be required to supply satisfactory evidence that the applicant is a competent person to hold such a licence.

BattleCorp

barnaman wrote: »

The OP is doing 2 things 1 renewing a firearm licence (based on a hunting need) and 2 applying for a licence to hunt with a firearm. The Guards are entitled to ask for the info asked for and is within their remit. The whole system needs an overhaul though. Just to add another poster said lad confine to land that had written permission but thats the system. I own and have the sporting rights to a fair bit of land but I cannot hunt that land without a licence, which the Minister grants have considered a written application.

Legislation below


2A) (a) An applicant for



(i) the grant of a licence under section 29 of this Act, or



(ii) the grant or renewal of a certificate to which section 29(5) of this Act relates,



may, before the granting of any such licence or the granting or renewal of any such certificate, be required to supply satisfactory evidence that the applicant is a competent person to hold such a licence.

You might be missing the point. The Gardai already have this information. It was supplied when I first applied for my firearm. The whole idea of the prepopulated renewal form is that all the information doesn't have to be resubmitted. Legislation covers this. I believe that the Gardai aren't following the legislation by insisting that this information must be resubmitted.

To be honest, I don't mind too much getting the permissions again, that won't be a problem. It's a nuisance but I'll get over it. But I do have a problem with the Gardai getting me to unnecessarily jump through hoops when I legally don't have to.

As a shooter, I don't expect to get away with anything. If there are rules, I will follow the rules. But if I follow rules, then I think the Gardai should have to follow rules too. Not unofficially make up new rules because they want to. Now, I'll apologise if this is a new rule, but nobody has been made aware if so this makes me think that it was done unofficially at local level.

This might seem like a petty thing for me to be giving out about but experience has shown that if you give an inch, a mile will be taken.

Cass

barnaman wrote: »

The OP is doing 2 things 1 renewing a firearm licence (based on a hunting need) and 2 applying for a licence to hunt with a firearm.

Both of which are covered by the FCA1.

The old white license had specific authorisation on the back of them which entitled you to hunt any game in open season that did not require a separate license (Deer, Foreshore, etc).

The new licenses did not have this, but the issue was resolved shortly after the introduction of the new three year licenses when thestannounced that the license would act as authorisation to hunt.

So when you apply for a license and tick the hunting box, upon granting of a license, you are legally allowed to hunt with the gun. You do not get a separate license for hunting.

The Guards are entitled to ask for the info asked for and is within their remit.

The FCR does this. It's pre-populated with the information you provided the first time to get the license. The only reason to submit new land permissions is if your existing ones have changed.

The whole system needs an overhaul though.

We have been calling for this since 2006.

Just to add another poster said lad confine to land that had written permission but thats the system. I own and have the sporting rights to a fair bit of land but I cannot hunt that land without a licence, which the Minister grants have considered a written application.

You're wrong on this.

The permission your license grants you is for the land you nominated on your application. However you DO NOT receive a separate hunting license. Your Firearms Certificate is your authorisation.

Legislation below


2A) (a) An applicant for



(i) the grant of a licence under section 29 of this Act, or



(ii) the grant or renewal of a certificate to which section 29(5) of this Act relates,



may, before the granting of any such licence or the granting or renewal of any such certificate, be required to supply satisfactory evidence that the applicant is a competent person to hold such a licence.

This is a little hard to follow, but i'll clarify it based on what i can make out from it.

Section 29(5) of the 1976 Wildlife act says a license to to hunt is granted WITH the granting of a firearms license for the period/duration of the license. This used to be August to July.

However the 2010 Amemdment act, section 4, clarifies this by saying the same authrisation applies to new licenses issued after August 2009, but before August 2012. This is the period of the first batch of new firearms licenses.


You seem to be under the mistaken impression that a separate license is needed to hunt. It's not. There are only two exceptions to this. Deer license, which must be applied for or renewed each year and stands separate to the authorisation your firearm certifcate grants you (also the section 42). Foreshore licenses. Every other game is covered by your firearms license and can only be shot in the specified open seasons.


The FCR is a re-application/renewal form. It states in the legislation and on An Garda website that the information is already provided. All the applicant need do is make sure the details are correct and return the form, signed with photo, to your Firearms Officer.

barnaman

But there are 2 seperate licences. The thing is and this is part of the fault/confusion is the the firearms application doubles ups as an application to hunt wildlife with a firearm. So I apply for a shot gun licence to hunt pheasants and its granted I have 2 things one a firearm licence and 2 a licence to hunt wildlife with a firearm. All the Firearms and Wildlife Acts do is say that where you apply for a licence for a firearm to hunt the one application doubles up as an application for both licences. A firearms licence application form for non residents is much clearer and its the same law. The Guards are simply checking that information supplied on orginial application is still correct and they are allowed under the Acts to do that.

"Just to add another poster said lad confine to land that had written permission but thats the system. I own and have the sporting rights to a fair bit of land but I cannot hunt that land without a licence, which the Minister grants have considered a written application.

You're wrong on this.

The permission your license grants you is for the land you nominated on your application. However you DO NOT receive a separate hunting license. Your Firearms Certificate is your authorisation"

Not sure what the point is there and that is my point oral permission do not exist to the best of my knowledge you get a licence based on written permission submitted with your application or renewal. As said the firearms cert is cert to hunt where ticked an permissions supplied. If applied for as a farmer for limited licence to shoot vermin on my land and instead shot ducks etc I am breaking the law as I am hunting without a licence depite legally owning the firearm and using it on land I ownd and have the sportign rights to.

Cass

barnaman wrote: »

. The Guards are simply checking that information supplied on orginial application is still correct and they are allowed under the Acts to do that.

You are missing the point. The Gardaí are entitled to check that the applicant has land permissions. That bit you have right. The bit you are missing is IT'S ON THE FCR ALREADY. The need for separate letters to give the same information is redundant and against the policy of An Gardai who will not even take an FCA1 (according to their website) as a substitute for an FCR.

This is the key point of the OP's grievance. That they are requesting an additional act of getting letters signed when the fCR already provides for this function.

Not sure what the point is there and that is my point oral permission do not exist to the best of my knowledge you get a licence based on written permission submitted with your application or renewal.

No one mentioned oral permissions, and they would no be accepted. It's why you must provide permission letters when first applying and confirm when renewing.

As said the firearms cert is cert to hunt where ticked an permissions supplied. If applied for as a farmer for limited licence to shoot vermin on my land and instead shot ducks etc I am breaking the law as I am hunting without a licence depite legally owning the firearm and using it on land I ownd and have the sportign rights to.

Limited certificates are not germane to the topic.

barnaman

The issue or point is whether the Guards are entitled to do what they did and the short answer is yes as the Acts clearly allow it even if the request is percieved as redundant. A request for confirmation of information of time outlined is IMO not going to be seen as perverse or an an abuse of process such as to subject it to judicial review where the Act allows for it. German pointer was raising the point about oral permissions not being considered and a cert being limited to land with written permmision only hence my addressing it as part of emphaising that 2 seperate licences are being applied for by the OP; I believe some posts had seemed to suggest that there were not.

It makes sense have firearms licence and hunting application completely seperate as pretty sure the current system not comply with EU law re protection of birds as wonder if Minster for Arts is actively considering whether land permission based on is being over hunted.

BattleCorp

barnaman wrote: »

The issue or point is whether the Guards are entitled to do what they did and the short answer is yes as the Acts clearly allow it even if the request is percieved as redundant.

What's the point of a prepopulated form if the Gardai can ask for everything to be supplied again?

In the legislation that you quoted:

may, before the granting of any such licence or the granting or renewal of any such certificate, be required to supply satisfactory evidence that the applicant is a competent person to hold such a licence

What Act/SI is this taken from because usually 'competent person' means the following:

“competent”, in relation to a person, means a person who, having regard to the
task he or she is required to perform, possesses sufficient training, experience
and knowledge appropriate to the nature of that task;

If the above is the correct definition, then the section you quoted wouldn't relate in the slightest to shooting permissions.

It makes sense have firearms licence and hunting application completely seperate as pretty sure the current system not comply with EU law re protection of birds as wonder if Minster for Arts is actively considering whether land permission based on is being over hunted.

I don't follow your logic in having the firearm licence and the hunting licence separate. Surely the two are linked. If your reason for having the firearm is hunting, then you can't have the firearm if you don't have a licence to hunt. What's the point of two different pieces of paper when the licence is already doing both jobs.

I don't see how a different licence would prevent birds from being over-hunted either.

Cass

barnaman wrote: »

A request for confirmation of information of time outlined is IMO not going to be seen as perverse or an an abuse of process such as to subject it to judicial review where the Act allows for it. .

I'm not disagreeing with you on the need for confirmation of land permissions. What i am saying is the letters are redundant and not legally necessary.

The FCR has the land permissions filled in on it. These are the ones you got your license on and the ones you need to confirm. To confirm them you simply sign the FCR and thats it. If you have new permissions, different to the ones on your FCR, then you fill in new forms or permission (your own or the Garda issued ones) and send it back with the FCR. As per the Gardaí:

If there are no changes, the applicant simply signs the renewal form and brings the FCR form to his/her Garda Station for processing by An Garda Síochána.

Nowhere does it say to fill in extra forms, made up in the local station, repeating the already confirmed information and send them in too.


That is also a key point. If these were "the norm" then why are they not country wide. I've done 4 renewals in the last few months and no received or asked to fill anything of the sort in. This is a station/district issue and is a slippery slope as we've seen with suppressors, ammo limits, and even scopes.

As said i don't disagree with the forms on principle. They have a use such as for FCA1 new applications. Just not for FCR renewals.

You point about hunting and firearm licenses being separate are technically correct in that they are two distinct topics, but they are merged as the granting of a firearms license (assuming the reason for the firearm and license was hunting) grants the licensee authorisation to hunt. If asked by a Garda or NPWS ranger the firearm owner would produce their firearms license as proof of authrorisation. They would not, as they don't get, produce a separate license from the Minster for Agriculture/Environment to hunt.

barnaman

I completely agree with you Cass that its all a nonsense and indeed not legally necessary for all sensible points you made do not get me wrong but just when lads talking about court etc, although obviously you said thats not the way to go, just pointing out that what guards doing within their powers so while not legally necessary they can do it as the Act affords them a broad discretion and request would not be seen as unreasonable by a judge. That form given to OP is wrong anyway as it conflates landowner with shooting rights holder. Part of massive problem here and as you point out in other threads different Gaurds/Supers etc doing different things so whole system is terrible but this is Ireland!. Personally sure they would be glad not to be doing this.

With competnent its a broad word within act for example "knowledge appropriate" could be taken as including knowing where the bounds of permission are, who current holder of shooting rights is etc and evidencing knowledge of same all of which a shooter should and no doubt will know.

OP the thing about seperate licence applications is this for the Minister for Arts etc he is meant to have as first priority protection of Wildlife ie birds etc. If 50 people were apllying for permission on same land safe to say overhunted and Minister should not grant licence to hunt and therefore the firearm application would also fail. I doubt that the Minster gives much consideration to this as in my years shooting its the Gaurds who deal with all these applications. I would believe that applications should be seperate as are with Deer. EU could ask in having joint application which Guards deal with who considers if the land is over hunted?

Easy have a smartcard with all licences on it and areas in respect of which granted can be checked by Guard or Ranger easily.

Anyway OP goodluck know its a pain but personally I actually think good to confirm permissions in writing reguarly anyway for insurance purposes.

Cass

The annoying part is, this is one local station taking it upon themselves to re-write the firearms act, wildlife act, and counter the legal advice from the Firearms Policy Unit, and the Commissioner. All the aforementioned have laid out the rules regarding the FCR and how it is to be completed. It's on the Garda website too. So one station doing their own thing is simply nonsense, should not be supported or encouraged and only serves to strain the relationship between firearm owners and Gardaí.

This is why i'm so adamant the OP not sign the letters.

barnaman wrote: »

I would believe that applications should be seperate as are with Deer. EU could ask in having joint application which Guards deal with who considers if the land is over hunted?

This, imo, is a terrible idea and one which will never happen regardless. It adds another layer or bureaucracy, more hoops to jump through, but above all else requires new departments to deal with the license applications and then liaise wtih An Gardaí ANYWAY to pass a firearm license and hunting license. Considering the shortage of funding for the NPWS that already exists i cannot see this ever happening. Plus as it is it'll be looked at as the Gardaí's problem and no one will want to touch that with a barge pole.

Easy have a smartcard with all licences on it and areas in respect of which granted can be checked by Guard or Ranger easily.

We were meant to get that in 2009 and instead ended up with the paper "things" we have now. Again it means spending money and that ain't gonna happen.

Anyway OP goodluck know its a pain but personally I actually think good to confirm permissions in writing reguarly anyway for insurance purposes.

Scan your FCR before returning (as i do) and the details are recorded.

BattleCorp

Just a quick follow up.

Went back to the station, different guard on duty.

Gave him the form without the Firearm Renewal Land Owners Permission.

I legged it out of there before he had a chance to read it properly.

Now it's a wait and see if I get the renewal.

Sparks

Good outcome but... honestly, I had a lot more faith in our police force before I took up target shooting. I'm not about to call my local TD at 4am if someone breaks into the house you understand, but damn, Gardai and paperwork, it's a mix that has never done anything but make me sad

BattleCorp

Sparks wrote: »

Good outcome but... honestly, I had a lot more faith in our police force before I took up target shooting. I'm not about to call my local TD at 4am if someone breaks into the house you understand, but damn, Gardai and paperwork, it's a mix that has never done anything but make me sad

Not sure it's a good outcome yet. I've only handed in my renewal forms. I might yet get a phone call to go and fill in the Firearm Renewal Land Owners Permission. We'll see.

deerhunter 25-06

i just handed in my renewal paperwork today i had a passport photo a copy of my gun club membership and a copy of my current licence,i have a deer licence as well but didnt give a copy of that.i was literally 2 minutes in the station the garda took my passport number and said have a good day.