Insuring a Commercial Vehicle for "Social/Domestic" only

07Lapierre

As I live in a rural area, I was thinking of buying a 4x4 (2nd hand)

I don't have my own business, so I would only be insuring it for Social/Domestic purposes.

If I buy a used 4x4 Commercial, can I just insure it and pay commercial road tax @ €333

or

Would I have to change it to a private vehicle and pay €1200 road tax and Insurance?

savagethegoat

the latter if you are using it for other than commercial purposes.

UsedToWait

Sorry to hijack OP, but I'm interested in this too..
How do the insurance companies look at it?
Anyone any recent experience with getting private cover on a Berlingo sized van?

JBokeh

I've had a few commercial Jeeps and vans, and that was while I was in college and now i'm in an office job that doesn't need a van, so I've no vat number. I've a commercial policy that says i'm a mechanical and materials engineer, (I think the policy just says engineer, no specifics) It also has the SD&P on it, which is what you'll need if you intend on crashing it out of business hours

I always get commercial tax, it depends on what office you go to, some require a form to be stamped by the guards, or a letter from your boss saying you need the van for work. Other places require a tax clearance cert or a heard number, best thing is to do your research on which office to go to

JBokeh

I've had a few commercial Jeeps and vans, and that was while I was in college and now i'm in an office job that doesn't need a van, so I've no vat number. I've a commercial policy that says i'm a mechanical and materials engineer, (I think the policy just says engineer, no specifics) It also has the SD&P on it, which is what you'll need if you intend on crashing it out of business hours

I always get commercial tax, it depends on what office you go to, some require a form to be stamped by the guards, or a letter from your boss saying you need the van for work. Other places require a tax clearance cert or a heard number, best thing is to do your research on which office to go to

emeldc

07Lapierre wrote: »

As I live in a rural area, I was thinking of buying a 4x4 (2nd hand)

I don't have my own business, so I would only be insuring it for Social/Domestic purposes.

If I buy a used 4x4 Commercial, can I just insure it and pay commercial road tax @ €333

or

Would I have to change it to a private vehicle and pay €1200 road tax and Insurance?

Leaving the tax and all its associated problems to one side, have you compared private and commercial insurance. I've been driving a light commercial for 30 years. My insurance last year was €260, this year the same company wanted nearly €900 and also wouldn't cover collection & delivery anymore. I have a 60% bonus. I eventually got it for €480 elsewhere. You would be starting from scratch as I don't think you can carry your bonus from private to commercial policies. Add to that, the fact that you will be making up a fictitious business in order to qualify could mean that in the event of an accident, and you get rumbled, at best they may pay the third party claim, there's no way they'll pay for the damage to your jeep or they could turn around and say you're not covered at all as you lied on the proposal. There are lots of things to consider here. IMO the tax is the least of them.

UsedToWait

emeldc wrote: »

Leaving the tax and all its associated problems to one side, have you compared private and commercial insurance. I've been driving a light commercial for 30 years. My insurance last year was €260, this year the same company wanted nearly €900 and also wouldn't cover collection & delivery anymore. I have a 60% bonus. I eventually got it for €480 elsewhere. You would be starting from scratch as I don't think you can carry your bonus from private to commercial policies. Add to that, the fact that you will be making up a fictitious business in order to qualify could mean that in the event of an accident, and you get rumbled, at best they may pay the third party claim, there's no way they'll pay for the damage to your jeep or they could turn around and say you're not covered at all as you lied on the proposal. There are lots of things to consider here. IMO the tax is the least of them.

Are you saying insurance companies won't give you an SDP only policy on a van / commercial jeep?

emeldc

UsedToWait wrote: »

Are you saying insurance companies won't give you an SDP only policy on a van / commercial jeep?

No, I'm sure they would. But at that point you would have to hope that our diligent tax officials wont notice on the cert that you don't have commercial insurance but you're applying for commercial tax. I'm not saying it can't be done but there are a lot of if's but's and maybe's.

07Lapierre

emeldc wrote: »

Leaving the tax and all its associated problems to one side, have you compared private and commercial insurance. I've been driving a light commercial for 30 years. My insurance last year was €260, this year the same company wanted nearly €900 and also wouldn't cover collection & delivery anymore. I have a 60% bonus. I eventually got it for €480 elsewhere. You would be starting from scratch as I don't think you can carry your bonus from private to commercial policies. Add to that, the fact that you will be making up a fictitious business in order to qualify could mean that in the event of an accident, and you get rumbled, at best they may pay the third party claim, there's no way they'll pay for the damage to your jeep or they could turn around and say you're not covered at all as you lied on the proposal. There are lots of things to consider here. IMO the tax is the least of them.

Just to be clear...I'm not trying to "Defraud" the system. If I have to re-register a commercial 4x4 as a Private 4x4, so be it. It just means buying one becomes a lot more expensive.

CoDy1

Private and Commercial premiums are pretty similar these days, in some cases commercial premiums are more expensive, ie crew cab pick ups. Its all down to how you use the vehicle and tax, if you are using it for social & domestic use you need to pay private tax rates, which e.g on a 3.0D x5 commercial would be pretty high.

Theanswers

Pay the commercial rate like everyone else. You will have no bother. The other rate is madness, and like me because you live in a rural area, the imagine the roads are shocking and a proper 4x4 is not a luxury but a requirement.

UsedToWait

Just bumping this thread again to see if anyone with experience of insuring a commercial vehicle (taxed privately!) for social domestic & pleasure use only could chip in..

Did you find it difficult to get cover?
Dearer than insuring a car or much the same?
Do regular insurers cover it, or are there any brokers you'd recommend?

I have dogs, which is the main reason I'm thinking of a berlingo type van..
Would also be handy for fishing, the odd overnight stealth camping etc..

dj_

UsedToWait wrote: »

Did you find it difficult to get cover?
Dearer than insuring a car or much the same?
Do regular insurers cover it, or are there any brokers you'd recommend?

Got 2 quotes last week from FirstIreland and insuremyvan.ie. Both were just under €500 for 3rd party, fire and theft on a 2005 Fiat Doblo (1.9L).

I'm paying about the same on my 2004 almera (1.5L).

I asked Aviva about transferring my insurance and was simply told they wont insure any sort of van. I'll make another few call this week but don't really expect to find anything better. I'd also be interested if there are any other insurers/brokers people would recommend?

07Lapierre

Theanswers wrote: »

Pay the commercial rate like everyone else. You will have no bother. The other rate is madness, and like me because you live in a rural area, the imagine the roads are shocking and a proper 4x4 is not a luxury but a requirement.

OK so I buy a 4x4 and tax it @ commercial rate of €333. If I then insure it...could the insurance company refuse to pay out in the event of an accident?

dj_

07Lapierre wrote: »

OK so I buy a 4x4 and tax it @ commercial rate of €333. If I then insure it...could the insurance company refuse to pay out in the event of an accident?

Your insurance will be valid even if you have no tax on your vehicle. so I can't imagine having the "wrong" tax would be an issue in that regards.

Also, the jeep needs to be insured before you tax it.

emeldc

07Lapierre wrote: »

OK so I buy a 4x4 and tax it @ commercial rate of €333. If I then insure it...could the insurance company refuse to pay out in the event of an accident?

Who knows. Insurance companies these days will do anything to avoid paying. They will always pay the 3rd party (not his fault after all) but if you have fully comp, they may not pay for your jeep.

UsedToWait

dj_ wrote: »

Got 2 quotes last week from FirstIreland and insuremyvan.ie. Both were just under €500 for 3rd party, fire and theft on a 2005 Fiat Doblo (1.9L).

I'm paying about the same on my 2004 almera (1.5L).

I asked Aviva about transferring my insurance and was simply told they wont insure any sort of van. I'll make another few call this week but don't really expect to find anything better. I'd also be interested if there are any other insurers/brokers people would recommend?

Just wanted to update this thread for anyone interested in the topic.. I couldn't get a quote from insuremyvan, nor from Dolmen.
First Ireland mentioned that it's becoming difficult to get quotes for private cover on a commercial vehicle, but managed to get me a quote of 540 fully comp on a Berlingo (for comparison, my car renewal this year is 560)..

frozenfrozen

Did you go with commercial tax or private? And did that affect the insurance quote?

UsedToWait

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Did you go with commercial tax or private? And did that affect the insurance quote?

Haven't bought the van yet - was looking into the feasibility of it first..
They didn't ask, but i would be taxing it privately..

Gumbo

UsedToWait wrote: »

Just wanted to update this thread for anyone interested in the topic.. I couldn't get a quote from insuremyvan, nor from Dolmen.
First Ireland mentioned that it's becoming difficult to get quotes for private cover on a commercial vehicle, but managed to get me a quote of 540 fully comp on a Berlingo (for comparison, my car renewal this year is 560)..

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Did you go with commercial tax or private? And did that affect the insurance quote?

If it's taxed commercially it has to be doe'd and insured commercially. If it's taxed privately it has to have an NCT and insured privately. Thad my experience with my renewals every year on my crew cab.

nhur

kceire wrote: »

If it's taxed commercially it has to be doe'd and insured commercially. If it's taxed privately it has to have an NCT and insured privately.

A friend with a crewcab vivaro/primastar pays private tax and DOE... I have a non-crewcab similar and am on commercial tax and DOE...

have a look at this related thread with the title:
"Insurance for surfing van"
www dot boards dot ie /vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057567526
(I can't post links 'cos I'm a new user)

Commercial insurance will also cover social domestic and pleasure use so I don't get why the insurance is such an issue.

The important thing is to make sure you get commercial tax so you might want the person you are buying it off to tax if for a year before you buy it to save any hassle in the tax office.

I know countless people with crew-cabs, commercial 4x4's and car vans which are taxed commercially and used mostly or fully for private use and commuting. I actually don't know a single person paying private tax on a commercial as it would be madness.

savagethegoat

kceire wrote: »

If it's taxed commercially it has to be doe'd and insured commercially. If it's taxed privately it has to have an NCT and insured privately. Thad my experience with my renewals every year on my crew cab.

you cannot NCT a van....the clue is in it's name. All vehicles designed as Commercials have the CVRT

UsedToWait

Juelz Helpless Bimbo wrote: »

Commercial insurance will also cover social domestic and pleasure use so I don't get why the insurance is such an issue.

The important thing is to make sure you get commercial tax so you might want the person you are buying it off to tax if for a year before you buy it to save any hassle in the tax office.

I know countless people with crew-cabs, commercial 4x4's and car vans which are taxed commercially and used mostly or fully for private use and commuting. I actually don't know a single person paying private tax on a commercial as it would be madness.

From previous posts, the tax office can ask for a vat number / letter from work stating the requirement for a commercial vehicle.
I have neither.
As you say, it might be possible to get the seller to tax it, but that's a temporary solution, and I'm not sure how guards would react..

Insurance companies also ask for occupation, and mine is not one which has a requirement for a commercial vehicle - maybe if one is a farmer / tradesman there wouldn't be an issue, but perhaps you know of office workers who have commercial policies / taxation?

07Lapierre

Juelz Helpless Bimbo wrote: »

Commercial insurance will also cover social domestic and pleasure use so I don't get why the insurance is such an issue.

The important thing is to make sure you get commercial tax so you might want the person you are buying it off to tax if for a year before you buy it to save any hassle in the tax office.

I know countless people with crew-cabs, commercial 4x4's and car vans which are taxed commercially and used mostly or fully for private use and commuting. I actually don't know a single person paying private tax on a commercial as it would be madness.

Thank you..that's what I was interested in...so a commercial insurance policy can be obtained by an individual? the vehicle doesn't have to be registered to a company?

nhur

if you read that other thread you will find that although in the past anyone could insure a commercial vehicle... the insurance companies (not the govt) require that your primary occupation necessitates a commercial vehicle.

If this is the case, the insurers will offer you an add on for social/domestic etc. In my experience, this is the first year I have had any real difficulty in obtaining insurance quotes.

UsedToWait

UsedToWait wrote: »

and I'm not sure how guards would react..

The guards couldn't give a damn, I've never heard of anyone getting hassle and I know a lot of people who drive commercials for commuting etc. Even if they do say something tell them you have a cow calving at home so you needed the commercial with you.

07Lapierre wrote: »

Thank you..that's what I was interested in...so a commercial insurance policy can be obtained by an individual? the vehicle doesn't have to be registered to a company?

I don't see why not or alternatively I don't see why you would have trouble getting some form or other of insurance for one considering the amount of people who use commercials as their everyday car and don't have any business.

The Ging and I

I always had a commercial van for private use but then I am going back 20 years. I did eventually have a side line which was fully declared but it was never an issue with insurance.
You pay low road tax but high insurance and have to get it DOEd every year.
I never had a car as my hobbies necessitate space.

Gumbo

savagethegoat wrote: »

you cannot NCT a van....the clue is in it's name. All vehicles designed as Commercials have the CVRT

I think that bit is fairly obvious. I was highlight the point that the insurance companies ask these questions every year. I've been around the block enough with cars over the years so I'm not a newbie to this like others

kig

My insurance on my commercial pick-up has doubled from €495 to €889, what's the story?

nhur

not sure but my van insurance almost doubled this year too... and i couldn't get a second quote...

cplwhisper

Add roughly 50% to what u paid in 2015 to get your premium.
Massive increase in theft-attempted theft claims is distorting the rates.

Insurance companies having to pay out claim to other innocent party's because the fake SD&P driver was actually doing 'deliveries on the Quiet' or using van as 'minibus to shuttle workers to multiple sites...(we all know them and they think it's fine to do)
. Until try whittle off the fake SD&P the rate look to increase yearly now. Sorry for Wee rant

nhur

cplwhisper wrote: »

Add roughly 50% to what u paid in 2015 to get your premium.
Massive increase in theft-attempted theft claims is distorting the rates.

Insurance companies having to pay out claim to other innocent party's because the fake SD&P driver was actually doing 'deliveries on the Quiet' or using van as 'minibus to shuttle workers to multiple sites...(we all know them and they think it's fine to do)
. Until try whittle off the fake SD&P the rate look to increase yearly now. Sorry for Wee rant

aha - so that's why i can't get a quote! - cos i'm an actual SD&P user! only use the van for windsurfing/surfing on the weekends. the real prob for me now is that I need to put in a row of seats in the back cos the family is expanding... but i won't be able to insure the van if i do...

cplwhisper

nhur wrote: »

aha - so that's why i can't get a quote! - cos i'm an actual SD&P user! only use the van for windsurfing/surfing on the weekends. the real prob for me now is that I need to put in a row of seats in the back cos the family is expanding... but i won't be able to insure the van if i do...

Pre-installed back seats(crew cab) vehicles are OK but coverted vehicles are messy as not all done compliment to makers specification.. Explain the case direct to staff in a branch opposed to Internet list and they might be able on case-on-case basis...

nhur

cplwhisper wrote: »

Pre-installed back seats(crew cab) vehicles are OK but coverted vehicles are messy as not all done compliment to makers specification.. Explain the case direct to staff in a branch opposed to Internet list and they might be able on case-on-case basis...

i talked to many people on the phone about it but no joy brokers or otherwise.

Gumbo

kig wrote: »

My insurance on my commercial pick-up has doubled from €495 to €889, what's the story?

That's the norm for this years premiums. My commercial policy went from €452 to €761. Couldn't get a cheaper quote and some came in at €1500!!!

screamer

I've also heard of problems taxing them. Tax office is now asking for a list of pps numbers of employees to show that you have a need for a crewcab. So whilst it might be ok whilst the vehicle is taxed retaxing it might be a nightmare.

Gumbo

screamer wrote: »

I've also heard of problems taxing them. Tax office is now asking for a list of pps numbers of employees to show that you have a need for a crewcab. So whilst it might be ok whilst the vehicle is taxed retaxing it might be a nightmare.

Haven't come across that issue in Dublin (yet). I only put 6 months on it in January so I'll update in August.

kig

My thoughts are that there is just not enough competition in the market, why else can I not get any decent alternative quotes.

dr.fuzzenstein

I can't get any quotes.
I have purchased a Transit Connect van and I tried to insure it the honest way.
I.e. I truthfully state that I work in an office and I want to insure a van for domestic use.
Answer N. O. NOT possible. No way, no how. I have rang FBD, AXA, tried brokers, insure my van and quotevaninsurance.ie
I don't even have the recourse of getting three letters of refusal.
That means as it stands a private individual CANNOT insure a van for domestic use in Ireland.
So I will have to say I sometimes work for (company I once worked for) and that I am in the field an require a van for that. Or I set myself up as a company. Otherwise there is absolutely no way I can isure my van.
I tried my existing company (nononsense), all I wanted to do was transfer my insurance, not a chance.
I know surfer dudes with hi-aces, neighbour drives a hilux, GF drives a Landcruiser, all commercially taxed and privately insured, how the HELL are they doing it? The ALL would have to at least tell some fibs to get insured!
I can't see me getting insurance on a Connect through 100% honest means and you know what? I WILL get insurance through any means necessary.

dr.fuzzenstein

OK, outright lie number one didn't work.
I can't carry goods (so all delivery companies and couriers can't get insurance), it will only work if I carry tools.
So outright lie #2 will be I carry tools to carry out repairs on customer's sites.

Cheensbo

Insure it to carry your own goods/tools etc.

Sign the declaration and grit your teeth.

Not only does it pay to be dishonest, you literally have no choice.

TrailerBob

What's bizarre about this situation is that commercial policies on light goods vehicles include social, domestic and pleasure use..

cplwhisper

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I can't get any quotes.
I have purchased a Transit Connect van and I tried to insure it the honest way.
I.e. I truthfully state that I work in an office and I want to insure a van for domestic use.
Answer N. O. NOT possible. No way, no how. I have rang FBD, AXA, tried brokers, insure my van and quotevaninsurance.ie
I don't even have the recourse of getting three letters of refusal.
That means as it stands a private individual CANNOT insure a van for domestic use in Ireland.
So I will have to say I sometimes work for (company I once worked for) and that I am in the field an require a van for that. Or I set myself up as a company. Otherwise there is absolutely no way I can isure my van.
I tried my existing company (nononsense), all I wanted to do was transfer my insurance, not a chance.
I know surfer dudes with hi-aces, neighbour drives a hilux, GF drives a Landcruiser, all commercially taxed and privately insured, how the HELL are they doing it? The ALL would have to at least tell some fibs to get insured!
I can't see me getting insurance on a Connect through 100% honest means and you know what? I WILL get insurance through any means necessary.

---

Send me pm

cplwhisper

nhur wrote: »

cplwhisper wrote: »

Pre-installed back seats(crew cab) vehicles are OK but coverted vehicles are messy as not all done compliment to makers specification.. Explain the case direct to staff in a branch opposed to Internet list and they might be able on case-on-case basis...

i talked to many people on the phone about it but no joy brokers or otherwise.

---

Nhur - send me Pm

Stovepipe

so, is it possible to have a VW Transporter or similar with windows and second row of seats, for use as a family van? or are all those GAA mothers bringing piles of kids/hurleys/jerseys to the nations' gah pitches an illusion?

uck51js9zml2yt

Have you tried the likes of KennCo, Geffion or ARB?