Hardware store saying they undercharged me months ago

Shanry

Hi
My husband and I are building a home at present.
we bought insulation from a company back in Sep or Oct 2015 and paid someone to put it in.
Got a phone all today from the company saying the had undercharged us at the time and we now owe them €3000!
We haven't got the money as we're completely skint trying to finish the house and pay builders.
I'd like to tell them to shove it but legally I don't know where we stand.
Can anyone advise?
Thanks

Ken.

Well first things first. Did they undercharge or are they chancing their arm?

GBX

Did you receive a receipt at the time from them for what was purchased?

finglashoop

Undercharged sounds like they made the mistake. And now they are chancing their arm.

whippet

were you given a quote and did you accept the quote and pay the figure on the quote?

PaddyWilliams

I'd tell them to sling their hook

L1011

3000 is rather a lot for an "undercharge" on insulation - how much did you pay them to begin with?

Shanry

We have the receipt, they say the charged us for one sheet of insulation instead of one bale. We even sent back unused ones and they gave us some money back! They still hadn't spotted the mistake.
I don't think we should be paying anything back but my husband thinks we should give them something back per week as we got the goods. He's too soft 😄

Arbiter of Good Taste

Shanry wrote: »

We have the receipt, they say the charged us for one sheet of insulation instead of one bale. We even sent back unused ones and they gave us some money back! They still hadn't spotted the mistake.
I don't think we should be paying anything back but my husband thinks we should give them something back per week as we got the goods. He's too soft 😄

Assuming it's a genuine mistake, there's doing what's legal and then there is doing what's right. Your husband sounds like a decent person, so I think it's a bit off calling him "too soft" for wanting to do the right thing. Though I would expect some reasonable discount for the inconvenience.

TheChizler

What percentage was the undercharge of what you were actually charged? Small enough to miss or so big you should notice it?

looksee

Presumably you mean that for every bale of insulation they supplied they charged for one sheet? Was there a quote involved? If it really was as simple as you ordered goods and they delivered and sent you an invoice, with no further discussion, then presumably its their loss. Not morally, but that is up to you.

looksee

TheChizler wrote: »

What percentage was the undercharge of what you were actually charged? Small enough to miss or so big you should notice it?

Well if there were, say 10 sheets to a bale, then they were charged 10% of what they should have paid. Even if there were only 5 to a bale it was still only 20% of what should have been paid. And presumably there was some convoluted calculation for VAT in there too. It was a pretty noticeable amount, though granted if you were building and a lot of invoices were flying through, especially if this was one item on a multiple item invoice, it would be easy enough to miss.

the_syco

Shanry wrote: »

We even sent back unused ones and they gave us some money back!

I wonder are they trying to charge you tor this one?

Manach

Basically, the store are out of pocket and this is due to their underpricing which the OP had accepted in good faith. The invitation to treat stage (the initial bargain phase) seems to have well gone past at this stage which distingushes this from say mistakes on web site pricing. So, the OP has no need to pay for the store's mistake.

xband

Surely there is no on-going relationship though.

The store made an offer.
The customer accepted the offer.
The customer paid for the goods and took ownership of them.

All of that occurred in good faith and surely the contract is now complete and has been fulfilled by both parties?

The store claims to have made an error but the contract was fully completed and while I may be completely wrong, where in contract law would they have a right to try to reopen this?

They made a big error, that's why you double check invoices before accepting payment and completely signing off on them.

The customer could be nice and pay extra but, I'm not seeing where they'd have any legal obligation to do so.

I mean I have no idea how much goods I buy are worth and I don't have to think "oh wait, maybe that price is a mistake" if I'm offered what looks like a hard discount.

If the world worked like that you'd be unable to complete any sale without the risk of the seller coming along and attempting to claw back money afterwards, claiming they made a mistake.

You'd have people coming back saying they sold their house too cheap and want another €50 grand.

My feeling is they're chancing their arm.

BettePorter

I assume this from from a builders Providers rather than (kingspan) or the like. Builders Providers are notorious for mistakes like this. Having worked for one I can guess what happened. Order was taken over the phone or at desk .... handwritten, delivery docket counterfoil, stating one bale .... but when it went as far as system ... one sheet was selected instead of bale and it only came to light when it came to someone matching invoices. Legally I'm not sure where you stand but id say there is someone in the office who got a right bollocking and was told ..... you ring them and sort it. I'm pretty sure they ve written it off in their mind though in terms of imagining you ll pay.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Manach wrote: »

Basically, the store are out of pocket and this is due to their underpricing which the OP had accepted in good faith. The invitation to treat stage (the initial bargain phase) seems to have well gone past at this stage which distingushes this from say mistakes on web site pricing. So, the OP has no need to pay for the store's mistake.

And what if the opposite happened - the OP was going through her costs and realised they were overcharged, but at the time had accepted the invoice in good faith?

Does she have a legal requirement to pay them? Probably not.

Does she have a moral/ethical requirement? Depends really the type of person she likes to think she is I suppose.....

MileyReilly

You know you owe them the money. Pay them.

Poncke

MileyReilly wrote: »

You know you owe them the money. Pay them.

No they don't owe anything.

mikeymouse

Shanry wrote: »

We have the receipt, they say the charged us for one sheet of insulation instead of one bale. We even sent back unused ones and they gave us some money back! They still hadn't spotted the mistake.
I don't think we should be paying anything back but my husband thinks we should give them something back per week as we got the goods. He's too soft 😄

Undercharged by 3K AND refunded full price on unused material,
probably made money on the deal and got free insulation into the bargain.
I hope they come round and take the insulation back .
Do the decent thing ,op

EnergyPro

Shanry wrote:

We have the receipt, they say the charged us for one sheet of insulation instead of one bale. We even sent back unused ones and they gave us some money back! They still hadn't spotted the mistake. I don't think we should be paying anything back but my husband thinks we should give them something back per week as we got the goods. He's too soft 😄

I they charged for one sheet instead of a bale, and you returned some and got a refund, did you end up making money on this? Just wondering!! Seems like their mistake but personally I probably would try to arrange some payment plan if at all possible if I actually got the goods. That's a matter of personal choice though. I'm not sure of the legal standing on this

EnergyPro

mikeymouse wrote:

Undercharged by 3K AND refunded full price on unused material, probably made money on the deal and got free insulation into the bargain. I hope they come round and take the insulation back . Do the decent thing ,op

Sorry missed above post before posting mine

seamus

Something doesn't really add up here, as others have pointed out. Either their claim of only charging for one sheet is incorrect, or you did actually notice this and decided to say nothing. Even if you bought ten bales and returned 3 sheets, you would notice that you got a 30% refund on the price you paid for returning only a couple of sheets.

Assuming you didn't make an oversight that enormous, then I'd say they're telling porkies. Get a proper detailed breakdown from them in terms of pricing - what was charged for, and what should have been charged.

mrbrianj

If the OP called up the supplier and was given a price for the supply of the insulation, paid that price and received the materials. What's wrong?

The OP is doing a self build and not a professional contractor - probably the only time they will ever buy insulation, and would not be expected to know the price for insulation other than that quoted by the supplier.

The OP has to decide whether they were quoted the price they paid, and the supplier simply made a mistake AND the OP wishes to redress this for whatever reason, OR if the Supplier misquoted to get the business and is trying to pull a fast one.

EnergyPro

mrbrianj wrote:

The OP has to decide whether they were quoted the price they paid, and the supplier simply made a mistake AND the OP wishes to redress this for whatever reason, OR if the Supplier misquoted to get the business and is trying to pull a fast one.

Agreed I think this is the key point. If the store quotes this price agreed and sold it then I'd tell them where to go. But if it is a genuine mistake when invoicing and no quote was agreed on I would consider cooperating.

Rob Thomas

EnergyPro wrote: »

Agreed I think this is the key point. If the store quotes this price agreed and sold it then I'd tell them where to go. But if it is a genuine mistake when invoicing and no quote was agreed on I would consider cooperating.

Ya this has to come into it. If the original quote was, say, €8,000 but the invoice when it came was only €5k due to the error in bales v sheets then its easy to work out what you got and what you actually paid for.

Just as an aside, if they made this mistake on the invoice does that mean that whoever checked off the delivery docket, which usually has the same information, marked off a bale when only a sheet was on the docket? Or maybe the error was in their setting up the price per unit, which may not be on the delivery docket checked.

If it were me and I definately got the stuff, Id look for a good discount for inconvenience and pay them the rest if I had it.

EnergyPro

Rob Thomas wrote:

If it were me and I definately got the stuff, Id look for a good discount for inconvenience and pay them the rest if I had it.

Same route I would take. I don't think they can come on strong and demand the money up front. But I think a significant discount and a payment plan is reasonable if it is a genuine error

Little CuChulainn

I gotta ask, did you accept delivery and sign for the goods? If you signed for 5 sheets and took 5 bails then that could be a problem.

nikkibikki

If you do pay, don't pay a penny more than cost price. They have to accept some liability for their error.

brian_t

mikeymouse wrote: »

Undercharged by 3K AND refunded full price on unused material,
probably made money on the deal and got free insulation into the bargain.

Where does the OP say that they were refunded at a different price to that which they were initially charged

or are you making this up.

Little CuChulainn

brian_t wrote: »

Where does the OP say that they were refunded at a different price to that which they were initially charged

or are you making this up.

Shanry wrote: »

We have the receipt, they say the charged us for one sheet of insulation instead of one bale. We even sent back unused ones and they gave us some money back! They still hadn't spotted the mistake.

I'm not sure where this idea has come from that if someone makes a genuine mistake you can take advantage of it as much as possible. Whatever about accepting delivery for a large order and only paying a small amount for it, actually returning some of that material you did not pay for and getting a refund is very much in the realm of a deliberate fraud.

codie

Something similar happened me way back just before the euro but with tiles.Gave the plans of the house to a tile shop and got a quotation for them to supply tiles,adhesive etc for everywhere we wanted to put tiles.Paid the guy in full and about a month later he came and asked me for another £500.Said he made a mistake.I wasn't too impressed but thought I will offer him 1/2 and hopefully that will be that.Before I got a chance to make the offer he spotted me one day at the pass machine .There was a Q of people behind me .So he did a rather stupid thing of asking me for money and when am I going to pay up what I owe bla bla bla infront of a load of people.Suppose he thought he might shame me into paying him.That was the second mistake he made because I told him where to go.I think offering half would be fair and the hardware would be glad to get it and you can shop there again if needs be.

brian_t

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

actually returning some of that material you did not pay for and getting a refund is very much in the realm of a deliberate fraud.

Where does the OP say that they were refunded at a different price to that which they were initially charged.

Are you are suggesting that the hardware business sold the OP a number of bales and then accepted the return of a few unused sheets.
Most business would only accept the return of unopened bales surely.

Little CuChulainn

brian_t wrote: »

Where does the OP say that they were refunded at a different price to that which they were initially charged.

Are you are suggesting that the hardware business sold the OP a number of bales and then accepted the return of a few unused sheets.
Most business would only accept the return of unopened bales surely.

The op says they were provided with bails but only charged for sheets, meaning they only paid for a small amount of what they received. They then returned the unused sheets which they had not actually paid for in the first place.

xband

codie wrote: »

Something similar happened me way back just before the euro but with tiles.Gave the plans of the house to a tile shop and got a quotation for them to supply tiles,adhesive etc for everywhere we wanted to put tiles.Paid the guy in full and about a month later he came and asked me for another £500.Said he made a mistake.I wasn't too impressed but thought I will offer him 1/2 and hopefully that will be that.Before I got a chance to make the offer he spotted me one day at the pass machine .There was a Q of people behind me .So he did a rather stupid thing of asking me for money and when am I going to pay up what I owe bla bla bla infront of a load of people.Suppose he thought he might shame me into paying him.That was the second mistake he made because I told him where to go.I think offering half would be fair and the hardware would be glad to get it and you can shop there again if needs be.

That's also potentially defamation and exactly why shop security guards are extremely careful of making accusations in public!

fatherted1969

looksee wrote: »

Presumably you mean that for every bale of insulation they supplied they charged for one sheet? Was there a quote involved? If it really was as simple as you ordered goods and they delivered and sent you an invoice, with no further discussion, then presumably its their loss. Not morally, but that is up to you.

If that was the case where they were only charged for one sheet instead of one bale then it should have been blatantly obvious that there was something amiss if they returned a sheet and were possibly credited with the same amount that they paid for a bale.

Littlehorny

Can you clear up one thing please OP? You say they mistakingly charged you for one sheet rather than a bale and they say you owe them 3000. What type of insulation was this, because in all my years in construction i have never heard of a bale of insulation costing that much.
If its standard foil back then at ten sheets to a bale then they are working out at 300 a sheet.

brian_t

fatherted1969 wrote: »

If that was the case where they were only charged for one sheet instead of one bale then it should have been blatantly obvious that there was something amiss if they returned a sheet and were possibly credited with the same amount that they paid for a bale.

Everyone is putting their own interpretation on what the OP said (which was not very well phrased). Hopefully the OP will come back to clarify.

ibFoxer

xband wrote: »

Surely there is no on-going relationship though.

The store made an offer.
The customer accepted the offer.
The customer paid for the goods and took ownership of them.

All of that occurred in good faith and surely the contract is now complete and has been fulfilled by both parties?

The store claims to have made an error but the contract was fully completed and while I may be completely wrong, where in contract law would they have a right to try to reopen this?

They made a big error, that's why you double check invoices before accepting payment and completely signing off on them.

The customer could be nice and pay extra but, I'm not seeing where they'd have any legal obligation to do so.

Pretty much this if everything is as stated.

However, I'd be interested to know what exactly the OP was invoiced for. My calculations based on rough pricing would suggest around 200 sheets/66 or 67 bales (assuming 5/6" 8'x4' sheets), can you facilitate that answer OP?

Years of experience in a builders merchant leads me to believe that whoever invoiced the insulation made a massive mistake that somehow wasn't twigged when the credit was done- I know that when we credit materials or items they are credited against the original invoice to make sure it was bought from us, and that the correct amount of money goes back to the customer.

ibFoxer

Littlehorny wrote: »

Can you clear up one thing please OP? You say they mistakingly charged you for one sheet rather than a bale and they say you owe them 3000. What type of insulation was this, because in all my years in construction i have never heard of a bale of insulation costing that much.
If its standard foil back then at ten sheets to a bale then they are working out at 300 a sheet.

Initially I imagined it's likely floor insulation, and anywhere from 4-6 inch heavy. Then it depends on the product, QUINN<KINGSPAN<XTRA-THERM, by order of cost, in my experience. Even at that, I'd warrant something around 200 sheets for that kind of money, although that's around 6k sq.ft so perhaps it's a mix of floor and cavity? Either which way, if we could find out exactly what the OP was charged for then it would be easier to suggest what exactly the error was.

RainyDay

I'm not sure we're hearing the full story here. No-one buys 3k worth of insulation on a whim. People tend to get comparative quotes and shop around, and have a pretty good idea of the prices involved. If you found that shop A was 3k less than other shops, it was a fair indication that something was up.

Stealthfins

Legally I think the onus is on the hardware store.

I suppose if you're not familiar with the building trade and industry it's not your fault for being overcharged.

Ok I'm into surfing and if I was buying a lot of board's regularly and there was two zeros off the price of a board,I'd be very sceptical about buying it and wouldn't have it on my conscience of taking the piss.

But if I was starting out I probably would not know the difference,between a pro board and starter foamie board.

Littlehorny

ibFoxer wrote: »

Initially I imagined it's likely floor insulation, and anywhere from 4-6 inch heavy. Then it depends on the product, QUINN<KINGSPAN<XTRA-THERM, by order of cost, in my experience. Even at that, I'd warrant something around 200 sheets for that kind of money, although that's around 6k sq.ft so perhaps it's a mix of floor and cavity? Either which way, if we could find out exactly what the OP was charged for then it would be easier to suggest what exactly the error was.

Just had a look at prices and a sheet of 100mm thick floor foil insulation comes in at 43 euro including vat! So 3 grand would buy you about 70 sheets, there is definately more to this story.

the_pen_turner

its hard to know the full storey.
I would guess that the op went in and ordered materials for several areas of construction. doing so hide the error. if they didn't know the correct price then they wouldn't know it was wrong

the_pen_turner

its hard to know the full storey.
I would guess that the op went in and ordered materials for several areas of construction. doing so hide the error. if they didn't know the correct price then they wouldn't know it was wrong

P. Breathnach

Some of the details under discussion are irrelevant. The core fact is that the vendor inadvertently undercharged for goods, and discovered the error some months later.

OP ordered the goods on the basis of the supplier's quotation or price list, and an error in invoicing does not trump that.

Civil Joe

This is defacto larceny by the OP. It's also fraud. They likely ended up with cash if they got a refund on material that wasn't paid for.

It's truly an awful country when she wont make what's wrong right and instead take the weasely way of trying to benefit from theft.

LeBash

OP call a couple of hardwares and get a quote for the same material. This will let you know if he is chancing his arm. Either way, don't pay it it was their mistake and you bought it based on the price quoted. You can always say you'd have bought something lower cost because you wouldn't have had the extra 3 k and still don't.

RainyDay

P. Breathnach wrote: »

OP ordered the goods on the basis of the supplier's quotation or price list

How do you know this? The OP never stated this.

hurikane

RainyDay wrote: »

How do you know this? The OP never stated this.

In fairness they are building a house. They won't be ordering anything without knowing the price first.

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

OP ordered the goods on the basis of the supplier's quotation or price list, and an error in invoicing does not trump that.

RainyDay wrote: »

How do you know this? The OP never stated this.

On what other basis might you buy something from a builder's provider? Either you get a quotation or you buy at list price.