New England Patriots Thread Mod Warning Post #253

eagle eye

In Bill We Trust.

I'll explain that a little bit more. Bill Belichick is a genius and more than that he is the best head coach in the league for the last thirty years and maybe of all time.
We are fans with no clue about what is going on in a locker room. All we have to go on is what we see on the field.
We are fans of the most successful franchise over the last twenty years. Our team makes the playoffs almost every year. We have four Suoerbowls in the last fifteen years which is ridiculous. We've seen some people moved on before which didn't appear to make sense but we continued to be successful.

Don't get your knickers in a twist over this. We will continue to be successful.

brinty

eagle eye wrote:

We will continue to be successful.

I thought you were an eagles fan???

TOss Sweep

Didn't take long for the In Bill We Trust to appear.

But Simple fact here is no one has the actual reason why we traded Collins and it doesn't matter how much hear say we get on twitter I doubt we will ever know.

But I once again don't buy all of the stories we are hearing and I also don't buy that Bill doesn't make mistakes and trust he always makes the right move. He has made some mistakes in the past and yet its defended with In Bill We Trust. Why was he on the field for 90$ if the snaps if these stories are true?

The sad part is here we shipped quality and have no one to replace him. The Patriots will make the playoffs and it makes it easy for the Patriots to avoid looking stupid in trades but the question then remains without Collins is our defense going to have the ability to win a Bowl. I honestly believe Collins is a bigger loss than some make it out to be and I hope our defense isn't now missing that key piece that will be the difference between winning a bowl or not.

For me the truth in this trade is somewhere in between and wouldn't be surprised if the player and coaches have just fallen out and rather than deal with it we shipped him.

Son Of A Vidic

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

You've quoted me and not addressed any of my points or questions

Yet another reminder why I find it a complete waste of time interacting with you.

What you posted...

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

Collins has been one of the best linebackers in the NFL for near 3 years now, and anything we've done on defence over the last few years is as equally attributable to Collins as it is to Hightower. They both stepped up.

My response...

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

Hightower is the leader on defense, Hightower did the impossible by making the loss of Mayo through injuries almost irrelevant. Two linebackers weren't getting two big pay days and when has that ever happened with us? The next Mayo style contract for a LB was always going to Hightower and rightly so. Yes Collins certainly wasn't playing particularly great or consistent this year. But I like most fans wanted Collins to stay but that's before all this broke.

Another part of the post that I apparently didn't address...

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

Collins is rushing the passer, defending the run, covering tight ends and receivers and running backs, and making game changing plays on special teams. When you describe Collins, you're pretty much describing Belichick's wet dream.

Oh wait, here's me addressing what you said....

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

Sometimes I think we all got lost in his athleticism and I was certainly very guilty of that. But what happened today got me thinking back to the AFC title game. Collins didn't always bring big plays in the big games. I almost forget that Collins made two shocking plays in The AFC title game last January, when he was beaten by the Broncos TE Owen Daniels giving up two TD's in the process. Yes that's right, Owen Fricking Daniels beat Collins for two TD's in a game we only lost by two points.

You mentioned his covering abilities and that brought me back to the two shocking TD's, that Collins gave up to a JAG in the AFC title game. Yet somehow according to you, I never addressed your points.

TOss Sweep

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

Yet another reminder why I find it a complete waste of time interacting with you.

Here we go again....... Why reply and quote him then.

Son Of A Vidic

TOss Sweep wrote: »

Here we go again....... Why reply and quote him then.

He quoted me, misrepresented my point and I was entitled to correct it. Up until that, I had absolutely no interest in any interactions.

j8wk2feszrnpao

TOss Sweep wrote: »

Didn't take long for the In Bill We Trust to appear.

I'm probably in the "In Bill we trust camp", but it's more "In Bill we trust......even when he makes mistakes"

Is this one a mistake? After listening to his interview on WEEI, Bill was pretty confident, and mentioned a little about the rumours (from Lombardi) and suggested that it may be true. Well, if he is not following the defensive script, and if it's been on going for a while, then it seems that Collins is in Cleveland because of Collins.

But as you suggested, we may never know the full/true story.

JaMarcusHustle

brinty wrote: »

JaMarcus you're a knowledge able guy and I respect your opinions

But if he's the 9th best linebacker per PFF why would he be traded away?? and for a third rounder from the browns who always overpay on trades

Yes I know it's a contact year and diminishes the value but why would the pats not be looking to resign him

BTW I'm not a pats fan and trying to be unbiased in what I say

I understand there's probably a reason he was traded. My issue is people have now started to downplay how good he was for us to make themselves feel better about it. It's pathetic.

BizzyC

Collins is a great player and has come up big for us a few times, but it seems like he didn't take advantage of his talent all the time.

I think this has probably boiled down to the contract Collins wanted vs some mental inconsistency in his play

JaMarcusHustle

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

Yet another reminder why I find it a complete waste of time interacting with you.

What you posted...


My response...

Another part of the post that I apparently didn't address...

Oh wait, here's me addressing what you said....



You mentioned his covering abilities and that brought me back to the two shocking TD's, that Collins gave up to a JAG in the AFC title game. Yet somehow according to you, I never addressed your points.

My point was that you're downplaying what Collins achieved. You said that Hightower stepped up when Mayo went down injured - I said that Collins equally stepped up. Why don't you give Collins any credit for how he performed during that period? Why is it all to Hightower's credit but not Collins?

I get the impression that if it were Hightower that was traded, you'd be here trumpetting how Collins is the real game-changer on defence.

I'm absolutely baffled at the "not that good" and "inconsistent" narratives that have now appeared. People want to measure what Collins did in his sack numbers and then say "well he's no Von Miller". He's not that type of player. You could say the same about Miller when comparing him to Collins - Miller doesn't cover receivers a fraction as well as Collins, Miller doesn't stop the run half as well as Collins, Miller doesn't contribute on special teams at all when compared to Collins.

Our fans always do this when we trade/cut a player. Straight on the defensive and into "Oh well he wasn't that good anyway" and "Must have been a cancer" modes. It's quite sad.

brinty

JaMarcusHustle wrote:

I understand there's probably a reason he was traded. My issue is people have now started to downplay how good he was for us to make themselves feel better about it. It's pathetic.

In that case I understand your ire mate and people downplaying a guy's ability isn't on. He was a great player for the Pats and his contributions should be recognised as such.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

the cost of tagging Hightower would be around $14 million

I didn't think it was that much. That's high.
But the Collins (and CJones) trade has put some pressure on Bill now to lock up both Hightower and Butler. To lose all 4 seemed unthinkable 9 months ago.

eagle eye

One of the big reasons the Patriots have been so successful is cap management. We never seemed to get bogged down by a lot of big contracts.

Brady got his money when it was necessary, Wilfork got his money when the time arose too but we sent Seymour away to make sure we didn't get into a bad cap situation.

Sometimes you have to let somebody go for the good of the team and to remain successful.

I've never said that Collins was a bad player and I said I like the guy and didn't expect this to happen but somebody decided after I posted about Collins that I did do just that. I did say Collins was poor on Sunday and some of his plays were surprisingly bad but I never thought for one moment that it was on purpose or that he wasn't following the gameplan. I said that if you made the argument that he was doing it purposefully or that he wasn't sticking to the gameplan you could make the argument without appearing like a conspiracy theorist.

And btw I'd have Hightower before him any day because his consistency is something that is very hard to find.

Anyways I don't make excuses, I just say what I think about things. I'm long enough around to remember the days when things were awful in New England. I am past the age where I get excited about one player being traded and the value we get from that trade.

People talk about being unhappy when Jones was traded. Well my thoughts after he was traded were that whatever happened when he was taken in by the cops was what triggered that as much as future contracts. I don't know what happened with Collins but it's clear that Bill doesn't want him in New England any longer and if he thinks that then I'm fine with it.

Also he is gone to the Browns, it's not like it's going to hurt us over the rest of the season. If we traded him to a contender then it'd be understandable for people to be annoyed.

bruschi

on the face of it, this trade makes no sense. Lombardis tweets about it doesnt give me any sense of ease or anything. It's excuses after the fact. Everyone was blowing up about Collins and his ability since he has been a Patriot. Why havent we heard these "lone Ranger" type plays or "cancer in the locker room" rumours before now? As with all Patriot trades when a good player leaves, these stories circulate after the event, not before. And not just here, but some of the Patriots fans reaction to "good riddance to him" is utter cack.

In Bill we trust is all well and good, but he is as human as the next one and doesnt always get things right. Maybe in time this will prove to be the case, but I dont at the moment see how our team is better by getting rid of Collins for a pick he would have got if he walked at the end of the season anyway. I'm not at all happy with it. And I'm less happy with the revisionism of Collins play and ability. He was an excellent player for us and contributed a massive amount. He is a loss.

StringerBell

To relate it to another GOAT manager in a different sport, we would say In Fergie We Trust.

You know damn well he wasn't perfect, you know he got plenty wrong over the years, but overall his record of getting it right far outweighs in at though you can acknowledge when he gets it wrong or at the very least not jump straight into demonising the ohter party you give him the benefit of the doubt because of his track record of success and getting the calls right more often then not long term.

I liked Collins, I am sorry to see him go, and just like in the past when I have disagreed with BB over when to let a player go I have no problem saying that on paper this looks like a mistake, but we will see how it plays out. The man has earned the right to do what he feels is correct for the organisation and I won't be overly critical without knowing the full details, or until we see how this plays out this season, and next.

TOss Sweep

The more i hear from Lombardi the more I don't believe he is telling us the whole truth. On the radio this morning he basically went into the effort debate saying Collins has been lazy and not giving full effort to basically saying Collins is just not that good. Whatever about the supposed lack of effort but to actually claim he is not that good is reaching.

eagle eye

Tbf to Lombardi he has been going on about both Collins, and Hightower too, for a while now so it's not just after the fact stuff from him.

eagle eye

bruschi wrote: »

on the face of it, this trade makes no sense. Lombardis tweets about it doesnt give me any sense of ease or anything. It's excuses after the fact. Everyone was blowing up about Collins and his ability since he has been a Patriot. Why havent we heard these "lone Ranger" type plays or "cancer in the locker room" rumours before now? As with all Patriot trades when a good player leaves, these stories circulate after the event, not before. And not just here, but some of the Patriots fans reaction to "good riddance to him" is utter cack.

In Bill we trust is all well and good, but he is as human as the next one and doesnt always get things right. Maybe in time this will prove to be the case, but I dont at the moment see how our team is better by getting rid of Collins for a pick he would have got if he walked at the end of the season anyway. I'm not at all happy with it. And I'm less happy with the revisionism of Collins play and ability. He was an excellent player for us and contributed a massive amount. He is a loss.

It's not as shocking as you make it out to be.

Firstly there is the contract situation, he turned down $11 million a year and the rumours suggest he wanted Von Miller money which is ridiculous.
Secondly he started freelancing and even his new coach addressed that and said he was happy with it but clearly the Patriots will never be happy with somebody not doing what they are supposed to do.

Thirdly he was starting to lose snaps due to him not doing his job the way the Patriots wanted him to. His replacement for the most part was a young sixth round pick by the name of Elandon Roberts who has looked really impressive when he has been given opportunities. We weren't missing him when he wasn't on the field is the truth of the matter.
There could have been more going on here that we don't know about too.
We could have an injury next week which makes this look like a bad trade, we might lose a close game in the playoffs and people will bring this trade up too.

I don't know, maybe I'm following the game too long but this trade isn't as shocking to me as it is to some of you. I'm not that bothered about it at all tbh because I think Roberts will do every bit as good of a job and maybe better than Collins did, well at least over the last couple of games.

JaMarcusHustle

eagle eye wrote: »

He turned down $11 million a year

If you believe Lombardi re: Collins choosing his own plays, then why not believe him when he says there was no $11m offer?

eagle eye

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

If you believe Lombardi re: Collins choosing his own plays, then why not believe him when he says there was no $11m offer?

I'm believing Hue Jackson about the freelancing.

JaMarcusHustle

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm believing Hue Jackson about the freelancing.

That's not what I asked?

j8wk2feszrnpao

EE, while I don't believe the idea that Collins was a great player for us (I've never felt that he was consistent enough to be in the top tier of LB's), you seem to think very little of him. Have you always had this opinion of him? He is a Pro-Bowl player after all.

Roberts has done well, but with much lower expectations. He has a huge job ahead of him to get to Collins' level IMO.

AbusesToilets

Pretty disappointed that no trade transpired today for us. I think the team could really struggle defensively without Collins and we're still weak on the OL.

TOss Sweep

There is not a Pats fan in here that ever critiscized Collins before the trade on overall ability but yet now all of a sudden he is not as good as the rest of us make him out to be. Love it.

On Lombardi he is not the insider on Bill that many think he is and some of his opinions are just that his opinion. I bet you any amount no conversation about the trade happened between him and Bill. Also Lombardi never liked Collins so has his own clear agenda here Bill clearly liked Collins until now hence why he kepth his roster spot and starting position until now. As for him losing snaps has anyone got definitive numbers on that? As it seems he is was on the field for most except that last Buffalo game.

Funny how opinions chnge. Also it doesn't matter how long you followed the game it has no beiring here.

JaMarcusHustle

I also think we have to question how impartial someone who was fired from the Browns - the seeming benefactors of this trade - and subsequently hired by the Patriots.

Hazys

Some interesting analysis into why the trade may have happened:
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4797179/digging-deeper-on-what-led-the-patriots-to-trade-jamie-collins

bruschi

eagle eye wrote: »

It's not as shocking as you make it out to be.

Firstly there is the contract situation, he turned down $11 million a year and the rumours suggest he wanted Von Miller money which is ridiculous.

that has nothing to do with why he has left mid season, nor should it have been a factor. He is contracted to the end of the year, if he wants big money, he can go get it then. Much like most players. but the contract stuff has no impact whatsoever during the year.

eagle eye wrote: »

Secondly he started freelancing and even his new coach addressed that and said he was happy with it but clearly the Patriots will never be happy with somebody not doing what they are supposed to do.

his new coach said the way he freelances is ok with me. obviously a shot at the comments of Lombardi and taken light heartedly. If you think that is vindication that he freelances, then fair enough. As I said, why has there literally never been any mention of Collins freelancing before this trade?

eagle eye wrote: »

Thirdly he was starting to lose snaps due to him not doing his job the way the Patriots wanted him to. His replacement for the most part was a young sixth round pick by the name of Elandon Roberts who has looked really impressive when he has been given opportunities. We weren't missing him when he wasn't on the field is the truth of the matter.
There could have been more going on here that we don't know about too.
We could have an injury next week which makes this look like a bad trade, we might lose a close game in the playoffs and people will bring this trade up too.

when was he losing snaps? I took the liberty of actually looking this up rather than regurgitating nonsense.

Week 1 100% 61 snaps
Week 2 100% 65 snaps
Week 3 100% 71 snaps
Week 4 100% 76 snaps
Week 5 83% 52 snaps (most of the LBs)
Week 6 0% injured
Week 7 93% 65 snaps (most of the LBs)
Week 8 62% 48 snaps (Hightower 73%, Collins 62%, Roberts 36%, McClellin 26%, Mingo 12%, just for full clarity)

By the by, whilst I had them open, Roberts % for the first 8 games are 0, 9, 0, 0, 49, 74, 18, 36. All considerably lower than Collins. It is utter nonsense to say that he wasnt missed when Roberts was filling in for him, considering that in the first game he played most, it was Hightower he filled in for, the other game Collins was injured and then the last one was Sunday.

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't know, maybe I'm following the game too long but this trade isn't as shocking to me as it is to some of you.

try be a bit more condescending next time.

I also never said it shocked me, I just think its a really bad move. Lawyer Milloy being traded 5 days before the season started shocked me. Richard Seymour shocked me a little more than this. Even Logan Mankins shocked me more. I didnt expect Collins to be around next year, the Patriots wont pay big on defence like what he will earn.

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm not that bothered about it at all tbh because I think Roberts will do every bit as good of a job and maybe better than Collins did, well at least over the last couple of games.

revisionism at its finest. Roberts being better than Collins in the last couple of games. I've pointed out the snap counts above. Collins was still one of the Pats best defenders. I really hate this revisionism that Patriot fans put on players. Same thing happens every time.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/jamie-collins-patriots-trade-career-stats-criticism-browns/9ersezohomq11e3l3zso1qvtz

seems to be a NFL wide thing, but it most certainly is patriot thing.

TOss Sweep

The words of Matt Patricia:

FOXBORO — The Patriots made big headlines on Monday when they traded Pro Bowl linebacker Jamie Collins to the Browns in exchange for a conditional draft pick.

With the team being 7-1 going into their bye week, trading one of their top defensive players came as a major surprise. Some speculated there were some issues with Collins and the coaching staff, but linebackers coach Brian Flores and now defensive coordinator Matt Patricia indicated there was no such issue.

“Obviously, appreciate everything that he did while he was here, won a championship with him,” Patricia said Tuesday. “He was great in meetings, just great to be around. Overall, everything was really good.”

Being around Bill Belichick for so long, Patricia understands he needs to make tough decisions as it relates to the team.

“I think everybody understands coach [Bill] Belichick makes very difficult decisions about this football team every single day,” Patricia said. “Obviously, all of us care a lot about this team. We care a lot about our players. And we care a lot about trying to make sure we’re always trying to do things that will help the team in any way possible. I don’t really have a lot to say about it just in general.

“I mean, Jamie was a great player. He was a great person, still is obviously. [I have] a close relationship with him. That’s part of the reason that we coach is to build those relationships with players and help them become better players but also better people.”

JaMarcusHustle

I don't know.

I mean, I know Brady, Patricia, Flores and McCourty have all gushed about what a good teammate Collins was, but they obviously weren't looking when he had any of his cancer-y moments.

Christy42

It is a weird one alright. I mean I can't see the reason to ditch him this early in the season but while Bill makes mistakes surely he had some logic in letting Collins go so cheaply (even if it is faulty or right there must be some reason)