Pinemartin kills cat

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

recedite wrote: »

Did the scottish wildcat ever live in Ireland? Even if not, they obviously evolved together in the N. European forests, along with the red squirrel.
The wildcat is that little bit bigger and fiercer, so it could not be a prey item for martens. Perhaps that was nature's optimum size for a cat in a marten forest.
Prior to the 1850's there must have been selection pressure for martens to stay nimble, so they could catch red squirrels. After reds were replaced by greys, this pressure must have reversed to some extent. I'm not talking about massive change, just selection within the natural genetic diversity, within the existing population...

An awful lot of speculation there. Pine Martins did not survive on Red Squirrels prior to the introduction of Greys. Their diet is very varied and is mostly voles, rats and mice. They also eat birds, eggs, beetles and other insects, frogs, honey, fungi, carrion and berries. Although they have been recorded taking Reds, it is rare. This is evidenced in countries without Greys today.

recedite

Daniella Crooked Scorecard wrote: »

Although they have been recorded taking Reds, it is rare. This is evidenced in countries without Greys today.

I was just throwing the idea out there, that maybe they were better at catching red squirrels in the distant past, having evolved in the same habitat. And not so good at catching larger prey. But without access to a time machine, we won't know the answer to that.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

recedite wrote: »

I was just throwing the idea out there, that maybe they were better at catching red squirrels in the distant past, having evolved in the same habitat. And not so good at catching larger prey. But without access to a time machine, we won't know the answer to that.

That's all just supposition and speculation though. Evidence says they never fed, to any noticeable extent, on Reds in any country at any time. We do know the answer.

Kovu

recedite wrote: »

One of the comments below this article about pine martens says "One of my cats was bitten in the neck. The vet in Mohill said he frequently has cats killed this way by pinemartens."

Oh dear. That's my cat vet. They are certainly correct in that article though. Pine martins are quite common around here. There were three kits last summer running up and down trees next to our veg garden.
Have seen the adults a few times, mostly outside the back door eating scraps from the cat dishes. By this stage I reckon the cats get on just fine with them as they've been around for the last four years and now the young are used to the cats around the farm. The only issue we had last year with the Pine Martins was that they were getting into our Larsen traps and eating the call birds. :pac:

recedite

Daniella Crooked Scorecard wrote: »

Evidence says they never fed, to any noticeable extent, on Reds in any country at any time. We do know the answer.

Evidence says Reds are currently the third most important prey species for pine martens, after the wood mouse and the grey squirrel.
But if you look at pages 71-75 of this document, you'll see that reds are mostly only taken when greys are not available, which tends to happen more often in western forests. Of course they would also eat berries etc in addition to these prey species.

There is no evidence available for what martens ate in ancient times. But it is clear that reds and pine martens have co-evolved in the same ecosystem, and so there is a very delicate balance at play between the speed and nimbleness of the prey species versus the same qualities in the predator.

If the available prey are mice and red squirrels then the natural selection pressure on the predator is to stay fast and nimble. If the available prey are mice, grey squirrels and cats, then the selection pressure could favour a more robust body type. That's all I'm saying.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

recedite wrote: »

Evidence says Reds are currently the third most important prey species for pine martens, after the wood mouse and the grey squirrel.
But if you look at pages 71-75 of this document, you'll see that reds are mostly only taken when greys are not available, which tends to happen more often in western forests. Of course they would also eat berries etc in addition to these prey species.

There is no evidence available for what martens ate in ancient times. But it is clear that reds and pine martens have co-evolved in the same ecosystem, and so there is a very delicate balance at play between the speed and nimbleness of the prey species versus the same qualities in the predator.

If the available prey are mice and red squirrels then the natural selection pressure on the predator is to stay fast and nimble. If the available prey are mice, grey squirrels and cats, then the selection pressure could favour a more robust body type. That's all I'm saying.

I take it you understand what low frequency prey items means and read the stats there on the very low level of Red Squirrel taken.

I'm sorry but I'm not discussing this any further as you just assume things, throw in 'ifs' galore and refuse to look at the actual scientific evidence.

recedite

Fine so, you carry on believing they will only eat a squirrel that falls into their lap. And the cats probably died of a heart attack or something, nothing to do with the pine martens...

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

recedite wrote: »

Fine so, you carry on believing they will only eat a squirrel that falls into their lap. And the cats probably died of a heart attack or something, nothing to do with the pine martens...

OK, let's be very clear. At no point did I say a Pine Marten wouldn't take a Cat - quite the opposite. The whole thing went into fantasy land when you theorised that they were anything other than infrequent predators of Red Squirrels. That was the reference, not Cats. So please don't misquote me or employ more ungrounded speculation into my intent.