Pinemartin kills cat

Murray007

So sad, we have lost four cats over the last two years.

The latest was mum and big kitten. Both disappeared last week within minutes of each other. Today my husband seen a large pinemartin carrying a cat nearly as big as itself up a tree.

Looks like we have a pinemartin in the area that has mastered nabbing cats.

I have loved seeing pinemartin s move into the area. We have seen kits playing on our lane way every year for the last six or seven years. They also have been instrumental in causing red squirrels to appear in our area. But this is a sting in the tail, we won't be able to keep outdoor farm cats any more. Still can hardly believe it.

Pretzill

Well a few years ago we had our entire hen coop devastated by something which cut a whole in the door and basically killed most inside. About a day after a pine marten climbed up my back door! He made a run for it as soon as he saw me - but since then I haven't kept a chicken - however my other half refused to believe he/she was the perp and blamed it on an errant mink -

But no matter how lovely, the pine marten can be just as hungry in his ways. Particularly if they are feeding young or it's very cold out, which it has been the last few days. I'm surprised they'd take an adult cat - cats can normally stand up for themselves -

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Pine Martens have been known to take Cats and equally Cats have deterred Pine Martens.

There's not a lot you can do about it.

They have their young in March and April and move to a new den to have their young.

magicbastarder

if it was a farm cat, would the pine marten be doing the same job you expected of the cat?

Capercaillie

Keep the cats indoors might be a solution. Difficult though with some cats. Aren't pine marten mostly nocturnal, let the cats only out during day.

Murray007

You can't pet and play with a pinemartin or watch them play catch me with the dogs. See the two dogs and cats all piled on top of each other lying out in the garden in the summer. Although, the pinemartin hnd red squirrels have also given us pleasure.

We live on a working farm with slatted sheds and a silage pit in the back yard. we started off as dog people but the farm cat has its job and they have gained respect and love from the family from that. We don't have cats in the house, even the dogs are working dogs.

Strangely, the two cats that disappeared last week were taken around 6pm. Dark but not night time. We do lock all the animals up at around 10 in the evening. They had seen my husband go into the house and that was their time to sit at the back door looking for their tea. I went out 20 mins later and the mum was gone. Fed the kitten and the hubby went out about 15 mins after that and the kitten was gone. The previous kitten disappeared from a shed in the middle of the day, both the mum cat and dogs were visabily aggitated. We thought it was a Tom cat that time but still could not understand how a Tom cat would get by the dogs. Now I think that the dogs didn't know how to deal with the pinemartin and hence they let it move in and take the kitten. I have seen the dogs acting really strangely when a badger was in the slatted shed eating the cattle nuts, they were really afraid of it. A Tom cat wouldn't last a second in the yard.

dodderangler

Are they eating them or just killing them as a sign of dominance ?

Mickeroo

dodderangler wrote: »

Are they eating them or just killing them as a sign of dominance ?

Don't think a Pinemarten would kill a cat for food, maybe they have young or were cornered? Cats wouldn't be particularly easy prey I would have thought.

Alun

Mickeroo wrote: »

Don't think a Pinemarten would kill a cat for food, maybe they have young or were cornered? Cats wouldn't be particularly easy prey I would have thought.

Me neither, especially farm cats.

dodderangler

I know foxes will take a cat from time t time but it's havevt be weak or a big Fox it's too dangerous for a Fox to risk injury

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

dodderangler wrote: »

Are they eating them or just killing them as a sign of dominance ?

Mickeroo wrote: »

Don't think a Pinemarten would kill a cat for food, maybe they have young or were cornered? Cats wouldn't be particularly easy prey I would have thought.

I thought likewise but OP said they saw the Pine Marten carry the cat in to a tree. They don't kill to show dominance. And don't have young until March, at the earliest.

dodderangler

Is it possible that they could be showing signs of dominance to an equal predator?

junospider

I dont believe a pine marten would kill a cat, in fact I would think a cat would pulverize a marten.

Mickeroo

Or they found an already dead cat in the road, hard to know.

dodderangler

Mickeroo wrote: »

Or they found an already dead cat in the road, hard to know.

But why would it drag it up a tree unless it was gonna eat it

Hotei

A Pine Marten carrying a dead cat up into a tree sounds damning all right, but it's possible the cat was already dead, i.e. roadkill or was shot.

Edit: Mickeroo got there before me!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

dodderangler wrote: »

But why would it drag it up a tree unless it was gonna eat it

Yes, already dead or roadkill carried away to eat. It goes without saying that a Pine Marten would take carrion.

dodderangler

Daniella Crooked Scorecard wrote: »

Yes, already dead or roadkill carried away to eat. It goes without saying that a Pine Marten would take carrion.

But to eat another apex predator sounds unnatural

Hotei

dodderangler wrote: »

But to eat another apex predator sounds unnatural

It's food.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

dodderangler wrote: »

But to eat another apex predator sounds unnatural

A Pine Marten doesn't look on a Cat as an apex predator. Carrion is Carrion.

A hyena will scavenge on the carcass of a lion. A lion would feed on the carcass of a Cheetah. Perfectly natural.

Pretzill

Daniella Crooked Scorecard wrote: »

A Pine Marten doesn't look on a Cat as an apex predator. Carrion is Carrion.

A hyena will scavenge on the carcass of a lion. A lion would feed on the carcass of a Cheetah. Perfectly natural.

Pine Martens will eat small mammals - fowl, and carrion - I wouldn't think either a cat or a pine marten are at the top of their food chain - a fox would be a threat to the pine marten - and there obviously is research that shows the pine marten preys on the grey squirrel because it hangs around more on the ground than the red -

Two things with the cat - I could see a pine marten take a kitten (but why is a kitten left to roam outside?) Also if the outdoor cat was sick, weak or injured or as others have said and what seems like the likliest scenario already dead - then a pine marten would certainly help itself.

Edit to add: I saw someone on another forum saying someone was complaining in Scotland after the reintroduction programme that the pine marten was eating cats - don't know if that was just an anti reintroduction comment though.

There are so many feral cats in the country that perhaps they are coming a cropper with the pine marten and vice versa

Murray007

I am slow to putour missing cats at the door of the pinemartin, but I am now convinced that this pinemartin has developed the knack of killing cats. Also, bringing the cat up the tree suggests that it is eating the,. Why wouldn't it eat them at that stage.

The small kitten that was taken was in a box with a plank of wood propped against it so that the mother could get in, in a shed. It was not outside. The large kitten was outside at 6pm, it was 11 weeks old. The mother cat and the kittens were in good health. We don't keep the cats or dogs locked up in the daytime. They are free to roam our house and large yard area, I wouldn't have animals in any other circumstances.

It is correct to say there are a lot of feral cats in the countryside. Our mum cat was a rescue kitten that we found in a terrible state in the forestry three years ago. She had every disease and ailment a cat could have when we found her and she was so weak she couldn't resist us handling her even though we suspect she had never been handled before. It is easy to see when I think about it that pinemartins would start to see cats as a food source particularly in winter. We use to have a hugh population of grey squirrels in th e forestry but they are all gone. The reds have come back, so a healthy population of pinemartins who were feeding on greys might now have to look to other sources of food.

I am a realist. I would still prefer to have pinemartins and buzzards, both predators, on our land than not have them. We just need to adapt.

I have a previous thread from a year ago or so where we came across a buzzard sitting on our garden swing, meowing loudly, and the cat frozen to the spot in the garden below it. The buzzard had a nest in a tree right beside the house and seen the cat as a threat. We live in a remote location surrounded by forestry. Our land is the only open grassland in the area and that attracts buzzards.

These interactions are part of living in such a wild remote place.

It was not the intention of my thread to blacken pinemartins, we have had them in the area for a long time. It is just that I now know a large pinemartin can take a cat, something I didn't know before and we will adapt to that in the animals we keep.

Hotei

Murray007 wrote: »

It was not the intention of my thread to blacken pinemartins,...............

I don't think you were giving that impression at all to be fair. You're very lucky to have them near you.

Murray007

The interaction between domestic animals and wild animals is interesting.

The pinemartin kits play on our lane in the summer and we have seen pinemartins in the garden and yard even though the dogs are roaming about.

The dogs must look on them like they as familiar cats although the dogs also show fear or trepidation when a pinemartin is about. A strange Tom cat would be under threat of the dogs if it came about.

There are of course foxes in the area but I have never seen one around the house, the domestic dogs must scare them off.

Badgers are frequent visitors around the house and sheds which has been a worry but strangely despite the fact we know they visit the slatted shed regularly at night to eat the left over beef nuts, we have never had cattle test positive for TB. Touch wood it doesn't happen as a result of me saying this. The badger is not afraid of the dogs at all even though the dogs would be going mad barking from the shed. Or they are clever enough to know the dogs can't get out.

Murray007

Daniella Crooked Scorecard wrote: »

A Pine Marten doesn't look on a Cat as an apex predator. Carrion is Carrion.

A hyena will scavenge on the carcass of a lion. A lion would feed on the carcass of a Cheetah. Perfectly natural.

But our cats are not carrion. They were alive and calling out at our back door for their tea minutes before the first one went missinglast week.

Yes, a pinemartin will take carrion. Years ago in the very early morning I seen a pinemartin trying to pull a roadkill badger of the road. When I drove up, the pinemartin was reluctant to leave the dead badger and give way to the car going by. There was a momentary standoff.

Murray007

junospider wrote: »

I dont believe a pine marten would kill a cat, in fact I would think a cat would pulverize a marten.

I don't think you have seen an actual pinemartin, particularly a big male. They are impressive in their stature and presence and even seeing them from a distance they tend to show their canines unlik e a cat, which will have a closed month in its natural state.

junospider

I have seen many pine martens and have lost fowl to them. They were first seen in this area about 5 or 6 years ago and the grey squirrels have gone and the reds are back.
Love seeing them about the place, if they would leave the few hens alone.
Still cant believe one could kill an adult cat.

recedite

One of the comments below this article about pine martens says "One of my cats was bitten in the neck. The vet in Mohill said he frequently has cats killed this way by pinemartens."

Maybe its also possible that the Irish population has slightly evolved from what it was before, possibly bigger or badder, or more flexible in its hunting strategies and diet? It can happen when a population recovers from a bottleneck that certain characteristics are changed or enhanced due to their over-representation in the survivors who form the expanding "founder population". Its survival of the fittest. There is even a theory that early humans were at one time reduced to a tiny population of a few thousand individuals somewhere in Africa, but when they bounced back they were more dynamic than before and proceeded to spread all over the world.

Day Lewin

Well, they are both arboreal. And crepuscular. There used to be "real" wild cats in these islands (the Lynx - still found in Scotland - Nth England, though rare)
It is well possible that they have an ancient awareness of each other as enemies: I bet an adult cat would be glad to eat baby martens...and they are well matched.

Day Lewin

Well, they are both arboreal. And crepuscular. There used to be "real" wild cats in these islands (the Lynx - still found in Scotland - Nth England, though rare)
It is well possible that they have an ancient awareness of each other as enemies: I bet an adult cat would be glad to eat baby martens...and they are well matched.

recedite

Did the scottish wildcat ever live in Ireland? Even if not, they obviously evolved together in the N. European forests, along with the red squirrel.
The wildcat is that little bit bigger and fiercer, so it could not be a prey item for martens. Perhaps that was nature's optimum size for a cat in a marten forest.
Prior to the 1850's there must have been selection pressure for martens to stay nimble, so they could catch red squirrels. After reds were replaced by greys, this pressure must have reversed to some extent. I'm not talking about massive change, just selection within the natural genetic diversity, within the existing population.
If you were breeding greyhounds, and you introduced a bit of pit bull blood, the offspring in subsequent generations would very quickly lose the ability to catch hares. But they would gain the ability to take down deer.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

recedite wrote: »

Did the scottish wildcat ever live in Ireland? Even if not, they obviously evolved together in the N. European forests, along with the red squirrel.
The wildcat is that little bit bigger and fiercer, so it could not be a prey item for martens. Perhaps that was nature's optimum size for a cat in a marten forest.
Prior to the 1850's there must have been selection pressure for martens to stay nimble, so they could catch red squirrels. After reds were replaced by greys, this pressure must have reversed to some extent. I'm not talking about massive change, just selection within the natural genetic diversity, within the existing population...

An awful lot of speculation there. Pine Martins did not survive on Red Squirrels prior to the introduction of Greys. Their diet is very varied and is mostly voles, rats and mice. They also eat birds, eggs, beetles and other insects, frogs, honey, fungi, carrion and berries. Although they have been recorded taking Reds, it is rare. This is evidenced in countries without Greys today.

recedite

Daniella Crooked Scorecard wrote: »

Although they have been recorded taking Reds, it is rare. This is evidenced in countries without Greys today.

I was just throwing the idea out there, that maybe they were better at catching red squirrels in the distant past, having evolved in the same habitat. And not so good at catching larger prey. But without access to a time machine, we won't know the answer to that.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

recedite wrote: »

I was just throwing the idea out there, that maybe they were better at catching red squirrels in the distant past, having evolved in the same habitat. And not so good at catching larger prey. But without access to a time machine, we won't know the answer to that.

That's all just supposition and speculation though. Evidence says they never fed, to any noticeable extent, on Reds in any country at any time. We do know the answer.

Kovu

recedite wrote: »

One of the comments below this article about pine martens says "One of my cats was bitten in the neck. The vet in Mohill said he frequently has cats killed this way by pinemartens."

Oh dear. That's my cat vet. They are certainly correct in that article though. Pine martins are quite common around here. There were three kits last summer running up and down trees next to our veg garden.
Have seen the adults a few times, mostly outside the back door eating scraps from the cat dishes. By this stage I reckon the cats get on just fine with them as they've been around for the last four years and now the young are used to the cats around the farm. The only issue we had last year with the Pine Martins was that they were getting into our Larsen traps and eating the call birds. :pac:

recedite

Daniella Crooked Scorecard wrote: »

Evidence says they never fed, to any noticeable extent, on Reds in any country at any time. We do know the answer.

Evidence says Reds are currently the third most important prey species for pine martens, after the wood mouse and the grey squirrel.
But if you look at pages 71-75 of this document, you'll see that reds are mostly only taken when greys are not available, which tends to happen more often in western forests. Of course they would also eat berries etc in addition to these prey species.

There is no evidence available for what martens ate in ancient times. But it is clear that reds and pine martens have co-evolved in the same ecosystem, and so there is a very delicate balance at play between the speed and nimbleness of the prey species versus the same qualities in the predator.

If the available prey are mice and red squirrels then the natural selection pressure on the predator is to stay fast and nimble. If the available prey are mice, grey squirrels and cats, then the selection pressure could favour a more robust body type. That's all I'm saying.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

recedite wrote: »

Evidence says Reds are currently the third most important prey species for pine martens, after the wood mouse and the grey squirrel.
But if you look at pages 71-75 of this document, you'll see that reds are mostly only taken when greys are not available, which tends to happen more often in western forests. Of course they would also eat berries etc in addition to these prey species.

There is no evidence available for what martens ate in ancient times. But it is clear that reds and pine martens have co-evolved in the same ecosystem, and so there is a very delicate balance at play between the speed and nimbleness of the prey species versus the same qualities in the predator.

If the available prey are mice and red squirrels then the natural selection pressure on the predator is to stay fast and nimble. If the available prey are mice, grey squirrels and cats, then the selection pressure could favour a more robust body type. That's all I'm saying.

I take it you understand what low frequency prey items means and read the stats there on the very low level of Red Squirrel taken.

I'm sorry but I'm not discussing this any further as you just assume things, throw in 'ifs' galore and refuse to look at the actual scientific evidence.

recedite

Fine so, you carry on believing they will only eat a squirrel that falls into their lap. And the cats probably died of a heart attack or something, nothing to do with the pine martens...

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

recedite wrote: »

Fine so, you carry on believing they will only eat a squirrel that falls into their lap. And the cats probably died of a heart attack or something, nothing to do with the pine martens...

OK, let's be very clear. At no point did I say a Pine Marten wouldn't take a Cat - quite the opposite. The whole thing went into fantasy land when you theorised that they were anything other than infrequent predators of Red Squirrels. That was the reference, not Cats. So please don't misquote me or employ more ungrounded speculation into my intent.