Feminism at odds with the trans movement

steddyeddy

I'm starting to lose track of these groups and what they stand for.

I was watching Newsnight a few nights back and I seen a segment dealing with transgender people. The segment highlighted the fact that some transgender people feel they should not be asked to put down gender on official documents. The interesting part for me is the feminist writer Sarah Ditum's attitudes towards the assignment of genders. She seems to want to protect the labeling of genders lest we forget how much men oppress women. First of all I don't think it's fair to use blanket terms like "men oppress women" like Sarah does in the video and secondly I think there's a disturbing trend whereby some feminists are getting annoyed that some trans people identify as women.

I think these groups should go back to being about equality and not whatever they're up to now. In case people think this is a feminism hating thread I'm a supporter of equality as people might notice by now. I just don't believe blaming other demographics is the way forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mnui7OqawSM

Sonics2k

This'll end well. They always do

darkpagandeath

Sure did not Caitlyn sort this lot out single handedly we are all equal what's the issue now ?

Iwasfrozen

Can't we just have "sex" on all forms instead of "gender" going forward? Problem solved.

.45auto

I love these stories. As per usual these groups turn on eachother and implode.

xband

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Can't we just have "sex" on all forms instead of "gender" going forward? Problem solved.

When you put that on forms smart arses write "Yes please!"

.45auto

xband wrote: »

When you put that on forms smart arses write "Yes please!"

Ye its usually cis scum

ancapailldorcha

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think these groups should go back to being about equality and not whatever they're up to now. In case people think this is a feminism hating thread I'm a supporter of equality as people might notice by now. I just don't believe blaming other demographics is the way forward.

Call me cynical but perceived sexism, real or not serves as a meal ticket for many of these trendy, white feminists. It supplies them with newspaper columns, paid speaking opportunities and book sales. If we somehow had perfect equality for everyone tomorrow, LGBT, women, ethnic minorities, etc... Do you think that they'd just quit?

I'm starting to think of myself as a Libertarian as it makes a lot more sense to me than pandering to these groups with their demands for censorship, special privileges and handouts.

BunkMoreland

Trans movement? I wouldn't vote for them.

kupus

you can only be so open minded until your brain falls out,

e_e

I'm more open to feminism than a lot of people here it seems but I have absolutely zero time for the TERF (Trans Exclusionary Radicals) side of it all.

steddyeddy

e_e wrote: »

I'm more open to feminism than a lot of people here it seems but I have absolutely zero time for the TERF (Trans Exclusionary Radicals) side of it all.

It's the first I've heard of it. Of course I support equality between the genders but I don't get why some feminists seem annoyed at the trans movement.

ancapailldorcha

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's the first I've heard of it. Of course I support equality between the genders but I don't get why some feminists seem annoyed at the trans movement.

I suspect that they don't see trans women as real women. It's also possible, sadly that they don't appreciate having their perceived spotlight stolen.

e_e

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's the first I've heard of it. Of course I support equality between the genders but I don't get why some feminists seem annoyed at the trans movement.

Was talking to one once and they were all "oh they're not really women, it's just men appropriating femininity" or some bigoted crap like that. I knew well enough to back away right there. :P

steddyeddy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I suspect that they don't see trans women as real women. It's also possible, sadly that they don't appreciate having their perceived spotlight stolen.

I think that's the sentiment alright. If you watch the video the feminist lady seems quite upset that men get to be called women. Also she seems to not like the idea of some men being called women in case we forget how bad men are.

How are people like these given a platform?

Samaris

Eh, every group of any sort has radicals and general lunacy off both ends. Yer wan up there no more speaks for all women (or feminists) any more than Masculinist India represents all men (including the ones that would like more rights in court to their children and for psychologists to take male depression more seriously).

nokia69

Its a mental health issue

These people are sick and need help and support, I feel sorry for them

I think the video proves my point, as mad as a box of frogs

steddyeddy

Samaris wrote: »

Eh, every group of any sort has radicals and general lunacy off both ends. Yer wan up there no more speaks for all women (or feminists) any more than Masculinist India represents all men (including the ones that would like more rights in court to their children and for psychologists to take male depression more seriously).

Unfortunately Sarah Ditum isn't radical at all. Sarah is a writer for the Guardian, the New Statesman and other publications. She's listened to and that's the problem.

.45auto

steddyeddy wrote: »

Unfortunately Sarah Ditum isn't radical at all. Sarah is a writer for the Guardian, the New Statesman and other publications. She's listened to and that's the problem.

She pushes the marxist agenda. All these marxists worm into positions of powerand spew their agenda

DEFTLEFTHAND

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's the first I've heard of it. Of course I support equality between the genders but I don't get why some feminists seem annoyed at the trans movement.

It's incompatible with the gender is a social construct theory.

ceadaoin.

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's the first I've heard of it. Of course I support equality between the genders but I don't get why some feminists seem annoyed at the trans movement.

Gender critical feminists think that gender is a social construct. Generally the trans movement is saying the opposite, that gender is innate.

They also object to people with functioning penises being allowed into womens spaces.

Also, I hate to say it but there is an awful lot of misogyny present in some aspects of the trans movement.

JupiterKid

There's a definite antagonism among feminists towards transgender people and groups. Germaine Greer has gone on record to opine that trans women are not real women - that they are just men appropriating femininity. This has (rightly IMO) upset trans people.

I don't see why feminists and trans advocates can't live together in harmony.

Hammer89

e_e wrote: »

I'm more open to feminism than a lot of people here it seems but I have absolutely zero time for the TERF (Trans Exclusionary Radicals) side of it all.

Didn't they sing You Get What You Give?

Hammer89

steddyeddy wrote: »

Unfortunately Sarah Ditum isn't radical at all. Sarah is a writer for the Guardian, the New Statesman and other publications. She's listened to and that's the problem.

Friend of mine says she is. Then again, he is a surfer.

Drum noise.

Like BLM, they do more damage than good. Although I'd be quite interested in examples of what modern feminism (the crazy kind) has done. Sounds like they make a lot of noise about nothing but I could be wrong.

Samaris

steddyeddy wrote: »

Unfortunately Sarah Ditum isn't radical at all. Sarah is a writer for the Guardian, the New Statesman and other publications. She's listened to and that's the problem.

You can be radical and still be influential. Otherwise, anyone with a wacky notion (such as democracy, communism, the Spinning Jenny, any given religion, insert idea here, etcetera) would never get off the ground. Doesn't mean that X particular notion isn't off the wall.

JupiterKid wrote: »

I don't see why feminists and trans advocates can't live together in harmony.

I don't see why men and women can't live in harmony. Or people of different races. Or fans of Pokemon and fans of Digimon.

Yis are over-simplifying is my point. Beyond race, gender, fandom, religion, hair colour, people is people and there are always nutty* people and dicks. No point taking any single person as "representative of their *whatever**" or you run the risk of over-simplifying any given problem to some random person who shouts louder than the rest at any given moment. Otherwise, I should agree implicitly with anyone with black hair, since mine is black and I, ofc, thus speak for all people with black hair***. Minorities maybe SHOULD support each other, but why would they? Go back to the Civil Rights Movement vs. the Women's Vote movement. Not all women wanted black people to have the vote, not all black people felt that women should have the vote. Black women got screwed regardless. But people are people, as I said before, and we all have our own prejudices and arseholery.


* "Nutty", of course, is Any Position I Don't Agree With :P

**Yes, yes, there's no systematic whateverism against people with black hair, thus we don't bother speaking and don't have a group***, but you get my point.

***I bet somewhere on the internet is a Black Hair Unite group.

BenedrylPete

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0dFsAtAlEo

desertcircus

Feminism isn't at odds with trans rights. A small but noisy subgroup of feminists who also happen to be complete arseholes refuse to accept trans women as "real" women.

Annasopra

nokia69 wrote: »

Its a mental health issue

These people are sick and need help and support, I feel sorry for them

I think the video proves my point, as mad as a box of frogs

Which people? Women? Feminists? Trans exclusionary rad fems? Trans people?

thee glitz

desertcircus wrote: »

Feminism isn't at odds with trans rights. A small but noisy subgroup of feminists who also happen to be complete arseholes refuse to accept trans women as "real" women.

It's not just feminists who think that.

thee glitz

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Which people? Women? Feminists? Trans exclusionary rad fems? Trans people?

Most likely the Trans people.

A small but noisy group of feminists is at odd with everything. Then again, the small but noisy groups of anything are usually against everything that is outside of their small but noisy groups.

speedboatchase

A right-wing journalist called Milo Yiannopoulous wrote about this a few months ago, predicting what he sees as culture wars that will take place on the Left over the next decade. Here are a few: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/23/minority-wars-why-the-next-ten-years-will-set-everyone-against-everyone/

TRANSSEXUALS V. CISGENDER FEMINISTS
Otherwise known as the “battle of the lived experiences,” or “who suffered more to be a woman.” These groups will never see eye-to-eye because neither is capable of looking beyond what affects them personally. Cisgender feminists will remain adamant that rape culture and unconscious gender bias are the most crucial issues facing women today, while trans activists (who, let’s be honest, have probably faced far fewer unwanted advances) will maintain that being allowed into the women’s restroom is the civil rights issue of the age.

TRANSSEXUALS V. DRAG QUEENS
Drag performers have a rich history of taking personal tragedy and social oppression and turning them into a glorious pantomime, weaving gold from their struggles and often challenging preconceptions of gender. To some, however, this is seen as transphobic, a mockery of the oppression faced by transgender individuals who can’t “take off” their identity after the curtain comes down.

This has led to the banning of drag queens from performing at Scottish Pride events, to make them a “safe space.” What’s next? A trans man taking umbrage next time they see a woman wearing a trouser suit?

In the future, perhaps women will be prohibited from wearing so-called boyfriend blazers, sweaters or jeans, and society will comply with strictly gendered clothing rules in order to protect trans people from distress, in turn robbing us of our current increasingly liberal attitude towards the fluidity of gender.

desertcircus

thee glitz wrote: »

It's not just feminists who think that.

Sadly correct; a whole swathe of different types of arseholes refuse to accept trans women as women. This thread is specifically about feminism and trans rights, though, so we can thankfully disregard all the other arseholes for the moment.

Ken.

.45auto is thread banned. Do not post in this thread again.

Folks, we have had many threads on similar topics in recent times. The same rules apply to this one, anyone being a dick or deliberately trying to label a group of people in a hateful manner will be banned.

Thread reopened.

Huntergonzo

Isn't feminism really just a socially acceptable form of sexism? If these people were really interested in equality then why promote a single gender? Why not call yourselves humanists (or something to that effect) and promote equality across the board?

As for the trans community, I don't understand it but I don't have a problem with it once there's no deceit involved, each to their own.

smash

John is a transsexual who wants to be known as Mandy. She's friends with Dave who is gay and Susan who's a lesbian. They work with each other to fight for equal rights.

Sarah is a feminist. She sometimes likes to paint pictures using her own menstrual blood and often shouts at men who open the door for her because she "can do that for her self".

Sarah doesn't like Mandy, because Mandy use to suppress her, even though Mandy doesn't know how. There's a shitstorm coming!

Smash is a straight white male, obviously he's a privileged bastard so he has no say in this thread.

Annasopra

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Isn't feminism really just a socially acceptable form of sexism?

No. Not at all. Fighting for womens rights does not mean you are automatically a mysandrist.

discus

speedboatchase wrote: »

A right-wing journalist called Milo Yiannopoulous wrote about this a few months ago, predicting what he sees as culture wars that will take place on the Left over the next decade. Here are a few: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/23/minority-wars-why-the-next-ten-years-will-set-everyone-against-everyone/

The man is a genius with how he delivers discussion from the data out there.

Isaiah

As a general rule I don't listen to people who push an 'ism' of any kind.

We are all people, we are all equal.

I despise identity politics. These people create division, they do nothing to further mankind or equality.

Annasopra

smash wrote: »

John is a transsexual who wants to be known as Mandy. She's friends with Dave who is gay and Susan who's a lesbian. They work with each other to fight for equal rights.

Sarah is a feminist. She sometimes likes to paint pictures using her own menstrual blood and often shouts at men who open the door for her because she "can do that for her self".

Sarah doesn't like Mandy, because Mandy use to suppress her, even though Mandy doesn't know how. There's a shitstorm coming!

Smash is a straight white male, obviously he's a privileged bastard so he has no say in this thread.

AAAwww poor poor smash

Saipanne

Feminism used to stand for a movement that promoted the ideal of strong, independent women. I supported this, and still do.

Nowadays, I literally have no idea what this ideology stands for, aside from it's clear hatred for men.

So this Newsnight report is not surprising. It seems no matter what, the vilification of men is paramount.

e_e

Saipanne wrote: »

Nowadays, I literally have no idea what this ideology stands for, aside from it's clear hatred for men.

Here we go...

strelok

e_e wrote: »

Here we go...

here we go indeed, another cis man thinking he can mansplain feminism to a woman

smash

strelok wrote: »

here we go indeed, another cis man thinking he can mansplain feminism to a woman

Yawn

alchemist33

Radicals, cis, trans...

I thought I'd left organic chemistry behind me twenty years ago... :mad::mad:

e_e

strelok wrote: »

here we go indeed, another cis man thinking he can mansplain feminism to a woman

Good to know that you too can play the identity politics card whenever it suits you.

seamus

I am a privileged person.

Privileged that I never have to deal with any of this bullsh*t either online or in person.

Feminism has no clear definition nor leadership. It is not one distinct movement with a clear focus and agenda. Thousands of individual groups claim the tag for themselves even though many of them may be harshly at odds with one another.

Saipanne

e_e wrote: »

Here we go...

#menstears

Seriously though, that's what I see. For example, take the Nye attacks across Europe. All reports were of Arabic/North African men, but the feminist slant appears to be "this is a matter of gender, not race or religion".

So quick to tar *every* man with these attacks. So unwilling to perhaps shine a light on an ethnic minority, even when it's the plain truth. It was men. That is all that matters.

When I see feminist articles or interviews, the hatred of men is palatable. It's a shame, because I agree with the core beliefs, but I cannot get on board with it.

steddyeddy

alchemist33 wrote: »

Radicals, cis, trans...

I thought I'd left organic chemistry behind me twenty years ago... :mad::mad:

Not with a name like alchemist you didn't. I also think people are referring to a hydroxyl group when they say my OH.

Huntergonzo

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No. Not at all. Fighting for womens rights does not mean you are automatically a mysandrist.

This is true and if channelled in the correct direction, ie fight for their rights to an abortion and against things which are intrinsically sexist such as religion etc then I think they are quite relevant but I still it's better to fight for human rights in general rather than 'what favours my gender'.

Also sadly feminists do tend to come across as very male hating these days, something in the mold of Andrea Dworkin and it doesn't win many supporters.