Getting a job in tech/IT no degree?

TheBiz

It's currently just an option I'm looking into.
I'm 18, in LC learning to programme (HTML, CSS and abit about SEO) in the little time I have and I'm looking at skipping college.
This is mainly because I want to be self employed and my area of interest is the tech field. I also have some ideas/plans I'd like to get off the ground and the idea of waiting 4 years (and paying back loans) is not too appealing if I can get my foot in the door another way.

Is it possible to get a job in the tech field while I learn how to programme and code? If even just entry level. Bottom rung.
My dad works in Hp security (loves computers, fixes phones on his own time etc) and he was told if someone can programme and code, they can get a job within the week at Hp..

I know I'd do reasonably well in the Leaving Cert but it's not really my cup of tea. Id rather gain real world experience considering I can learn what I need to online (full courses, MIT CS courses etc) and afk there are no certs needed.

What do you think/know about this?
Also what's your opinion on the whole situation?

intheclouds

Ive worked in IT for 20 years and we would bin a CV for a programming job that had no education or professional certifications on it. Why go for someone who has effectively nothing to show that they have any sort of staying power or willingness to learn when there will be 50 other CVs for the same job and some of them will have very impressive academic results as well as great experience?

You should be thinking in terms of giving yourself an edge. Get the education while you explore the plans you want to get off the ground. You'd be mad to limit yourself by not going if you have the option to go now, before responsibilities and a mortgage makes full time education impossible.

However, that's not why I think you shouldn't skip college. Go to college because they are fantastically fun formative years where you meet a lot of future contacts. I see dozens of people who privately fund a college education part time in their 30s because they didn't go when they were young and they feel the lack of education on their CV still hampers them. It's hard work to do it that way.

As for getting a job in a week at HP? Do you think their professional standards are lower than everywhere else's?

homeOwner

I agree with the above poster. I have 18 years experience in IT as a programmer, then technical team lead and later department manager. I wouldn't even consider someone for a programming job without a degree, in fact a lot of HR departments will not allow you to hire someone without a degree, they have a minimum set of standards for careers and one of them is a degree in your field. Also as a new hire with no experience you will have to pay your dues most likely in testing or support before you are allowed near the code, unless you are exceptional.

However you might find a small outfit who is looking for a programmer who can't afford to hire grads so you might get lucky but you won't find them through the traditional method of going to a recruiter.

If a potential employer gets wind of your plans to use them as a stepping stone to start out on your own they won't really be interested in training you. It's one of my bugbears when I get a candidate who tells me they are not really interested in my industry and just want to learn. I cannot waste 6-12 months training someone in our applications for them to walk out the door. Of course an employee is always free to leave, but don't announce it at the interview!

I wish you good luck. College is worthwhile for more reasons than just academic ones.

Deagol

Just to give the OP an alternative view....

I didn't go to college but worked my way through the company to be a supervisor of a laboratory with 6 people working for me. I'm now a service engineer travelling around Europe for the same company.

Even having done it this way myself, when I used to be hiring people for the laboratory the easiest way to whittle down the CV's sent in was to dismiss anyone with 'only' a LC.

I can tell you now, whether you are genius at what you want to do or not, you won't even get an interview most likely and therefore not be given the opportunity to show your genius.

I know it seems very unfair that you should have to go to college for something you feel you can already do etc etc, but a prospective employer has to make decisions on who they are going to interview from a page or two of a CV. And believe me that the vast majority will get as far as LC only and bin yours.

If you really don't want to do college full time, there is the option of getting a lower paid job and doing Open University degrees in your own time. But I think you might be surprised how much that will still cost you in both money and time. And there's the danger of falling into a rut just getting by on the low paid work.

My advise is to go to college, enjoy the experience, learn as much as you can and worry about paying off the loans once you have a good job that you enjoy!

TheBiz

homeOwner wrote: »

I agree with the above poster. I have 18 years experience in IT as a programmer, then technical team lead and later department manager. I wouldn't even consider someone for a programming job without a degree, in fact a lot of HR departments will not allow you to hire someone without a degree, they have a minimum set of standards for careers and one of them is a degree in your field. Also as a new hire with no experience you will have to pay your dues most likely in testing or support before you are allowed near the code, unless you are exceptional.

However you might find a small outfit who is looking for a programmer who can't afford to hire grads so you might get lucky but you won't find them through the traditional method of going to a recruiter.

If a potential employer gets wind of your plans to use them as a stepping stone to start out on your own they won't really be interested in training you. It's one of my bugbears when I get a candidate who tells me they are not really interested in my industry and just want to learn. I cannot waste 6-12 months training someone in our applications for them to walk out the door. Of course an employee is always free to leave, but don't announce it at the interview!

I wish you good luck. College is worthwhile for more reasons than just academic ones.

Even for a entry level job in a company? Something along the lines of tech support? Then learning to programme/code on my own?

I though it might be best to leave out my plans for self employment! I can't imagine that helping my chances.

I know in England they do higher apprenticeships in areas like software development and even things like business administration and engineering. British Airways for example have these apprenticeships.
Is there anything of that nature here? Like a training programme?..

intheclouds

Entry level tech positions are mostly considered graduate positions.

Again, anything you apply for will have 50-100 other candidates with an education applying, so why bother even interviewing you?

Why don't you check out entry level positions on the job websites and see the minimum requirements for yourself?

RoyalMarine

Without a degree, You will quickly find yourself in a call centre doing tech support. You really don't learn much there, just how to use their own tools and what ever service/hardware they support.

Honestly, a degree goes a long way. I went back as a mature student, got mine, and it's paying off. Yeah, the loans for students are annoying, but the salary difference is large after the first year or 2 as a graduate. 5 years after you finish college you will have a much larger salary, a huge experience gain (degree + 5 years experience) and it will short list you when applying over those who don't.

TheBiz

intheclouds wrote: »

Entry level tech positions are mostly considered graduate positions.

Again, anything you apply for will have 50-100 other candidates with an education applying, so why bother even interviewing you?

Yeah that's reasonable. So is it true about the number of jobs and lack o applicants? (Seems more so over in America that they 'can't fill the positions quick enough' etc)

Stheno

TheBiz wrote: »

Yeah that's reasonable. So is it true about the number of jobs and lack o applicants? (Seems more so over in America that they 'can't fill the positions quick enough' etc)

Not at graduate entry level, it's too many grads and not enough jobs

mrcheez

TheBiz wrote: »

So is it true about the number of jobs and lack o GOOD applicants?

FYP

Lots of applicants, not many good ones

TheBiz

mrcheez wrote: »

FYP

Lots of applicants, not many good ones

Ah I see, I know people studying CS and related degrees who struggle with Microsoft word. Their reasoning for studying it is 'sure there's always jobs in computers'

ASoberThought

I barely finished the leaving cert but was passionate about computers from the age of 8.

Roles I have held since leaving school in 2003. Across multiple countries..

-tech support
-various positions in IT dept at top Irish Uni
-It consultant
-team lead
-programmer
-SharePoint developer and admin
-director of operations

It can be done and when I am hiring someone, it would never occur to me to remove anyone from the short list because of a lack of degree. Some of the best people I have worked with are self learners.

Don't be discouraged if you have the passion and self motivation.

syklops

TheBiz wrote: »

It's currently just an option I'm looking into.
I'm 18, in LC learning to programme (HTML, CSS and abit about SEO) in the little time I have and I'm looking at skipping college.
This is mainly because I want to be self employed and my area of interest is the tech field. I also have some ideas/plans I'd like to get off the ground and the idea of waiting 4 years (and paying back loans) is not too appealing if I can get my foot in the door another way.

Is it possible to get a job in the tech field while I learn how to programme and code? If even just entry level. Bottom rung.
My dad works in Hp security (loves computers, fixes phones on his own time etc) and he was told if someone can programme and code, they can get a job within the week at Hp..

I know I'd do reasonably well in the Leaving Cert but it's not really my cup of tea. Id rather gain real world experience considering I can learn what I need to online (full courses, MIT CS courses etc) and afk there are no certs needed.

What do you think/know about this?
Also what's your opinion on the whole situation?

You keep referring to the "tech field". IT and Technology is the broadest ranging industry in the world bar maybe science (if you include Biology, Medicine and Pharmaceutical beneath the umbrella). Referring to it as the "tech field", makes you sound a bit like an out of touch politician.

My dad works in Hp security (loves computers, fixes phones on his own time etc)

Your Dad who loves computers and fixes phones in his spare time clearly has a passion and could get a successful IT career without a degree or any technical certs or experience(actually he has experience already from fixing phones).

If you don't have a similar passion, you can forget it.

K.Flyer

TheBiz wrote: »

It's currently just an option I'm looking into.
I'm 18, in LC learning to programme (HTML, CSS and abit about SEO) in the little time I have and I'm looking at skipping college.
This is mainly because I want to be self employed and my area of interest is the tech field. I also have some ideas/plans I'd like to get off the ground and the idea of waiting 4 years (and paying back loans) is not too appealing if I can get my foot in the door another way.

Is it possible to get a job in the tech field while I learn how to programme and code? If even just entry level. Bottom rung.
My dad works in Hp security (loves computers, fixes phones on his own time etc) and he was told if someone can programme and code, they can get a job within the week at Hp..

I know I'd do reasonably well in the Leaving Cert but it's not really my cup of tea. Id rather gain real world experience considering I can learn what I need to online (full courses, MIT CS courses etc) and afk there are no certs needed.

What do you think/know about this?
Also what's your opinion on the whole situation?

Not wanting to sound like Louis Walsh but, you are only 18!
I know at 18 years of age four more years can sound like an eternity, well it's not, and if you don't go to college you may really regret it later.
Its great having the confidence and the ability, but these days without some form of credentials you will have difficulty getting yourself noticed. If you are passionate about the subject, then college should be a breeze.
There will still be plenty of time for "real world experience" after you get your degree.

TheBiz

ASoberThought wrote: »

I barely finished the leaving cert but was passionate about computers from the age of 8.

Roles I have held since leaving school in 2003. Across multiple countries..

-tech support
-various positions in IT dept at top Irish Uni
-It consultant
-team lead
-programmer
-SharePoint developer and admin
-director of operations

It can be done and when I am hiring someone, it would never occur to me to remove anyone from the short list because of a lack of degree. Some of the best people I have worked with are self learners.

Don't be discouraged if you have the passion and self motivation.

I think my wording of the question was the main issue. I wasn't saying can I get a job as a developer or programmer but a rudimentary starting position in a company, such as tech support as it is a way to get my foot in the door, be exposed to the actual running of a business and learn/teach myself at the same time.

What would your recommendation be to me?

Headshot

Jobs Bridge gets alot of abuse but without it, I wouldnt have a job in the IT sector.

My advice is to get experience and it will count for ya down the line

Isaiah

Hi Op,

Firstly programming does not usually refer to HTML in the industry. That's web dev and grads with this skill are a dime a dozen, so why should they hire someone with no degree who can knock a web site together? Sure I could figure out how to do that in a couple of evenings.

The best advice someone gave me when I decided I wanted to get into IT.

You need 2 of these 3 things to work in IT -

Experience
A degree (Masters usually)
Certifications

A degree +certs will get you an interview, likewise experience + certs will get you an interview and so on.
That's just the interview mind, normally you will recieve a technical examination and it's up to you to impress them enough to get the job.

If you don't have any of these then forget about it. No degree, no certification, no experience = no interview.

"I like programming" and "I will teach myself" are of no interest to low level tech support recruiters. Why would they want you studying programming when you are being paid to answer 1st line calls? Tech support does not lead to programming. They are two different beasts.

IT usually refers to infrastructure, networks, systems and platforms etc. You can study on your own time and gain industry recognised certifications in these that can help you get your foot in the door.

Programming is more computer science based and a degree would be almost essential unless you happen to be a genius and can demonstrate that you are a genius .

Sorry for the bluntness but I think you should stay in college.

syklops

learning to programme (HTML, CSS and abit about SEO) in the little time I have

No offence, but if you think you have little time for learning now, wait until you are working full time.

FastFullBack

I think you'd be mad not to go to college. 4 years is no time in the long term scheme of things and a degree will give you all the basic fundamentals you'll use throughout your career.

If your keen to get working and get started on your ideas why not do that in your spare time. Part time tech support job could easily be done alongside a 20-30 hour a week college degree. As for your ideas and plans, again they can easily be worked alongside your studies.

yoyo

Moved from comp & tech

Musicman2000

ASoberThought wrote: »

I barely finished the leaving cert but was passionate about computers from the age of 8.

Roles I have held since leaving school in 2003. Across multiple countries..

-tech support
-various positions in IT dept at top Irish Uni
-It consultant
-team lead
-programmer
-SharePoint developer and admin
-director of operations

It can be done and when I am hiring someone, it would never occur to me to remove anyone from the short list because of a lack of degree. Some of the best people I have worked with are self learners.

Don't be discouraged if you have the passion and self motivation.

OP take note of this post . It really bugs me when you have people saying if you don't have degree we wont look at you . A lot of grads coming out of college haven't a clue and thought by people that never really had real world experience .

But for the likes of writing code you will need some kind of eduction and industry certs which there is plenty of options. If you can build up the certs and get experience you are on the right road. Fas run an excellent course for people looking to get into writing code but it is very intense.

I went back to college as a mature student and was shocked by the material being thought to students . If you want to go down another road such as the System Administration i personally wouldn't look at a grad with a degree it would be Industry certs and experience .

I am currently working in the UK and apprenticeships are a massive part of the industry at the end of the day IT is a trade and its a fantastic way to learn , than being stuck in a lecture hall listing to someone reading slides for hours on end which is mind numbing . You are young and look at all the options available to you.

Eugene Norman

I often hire people and don't even look at the degree. It doesn't matter except for grads.

ASoberThought

TheBiz wrote: »

I think my wording of the question was the main issue. I wasn't saying can I get a job as a developer or programmer but a rudimentary starting position in a company, such as tech support as it is a way to get my foot in the door, be exposed to the actual running of a business and learn/teach myself at the same time.

What would your recommendation be to me?

I started on a first level helpdesk at the age of 17 with no relevant I.T work experience. However, I knew my way around operating systems because of the genuine interest and passion I had growing up.
I think my CV contained personal projects that I had completed, such as building numerous websites, installing and configuring Linux, setting up a server in my home, automation scripts and a few other bits and bobs.

I would suggest compiling a similar CV and further sell yourself in the cover letter by mentioning that you are passionate about IT and are going to pursue some vendor certifications.

Some companies like taking juniors like this on. It can be rewarding for both company and individual because there is a progressive career path moving up from 1st, 2nd and possibly 3rd depending on the structure of the service desk.

Isaiah

I think I need to clarify my earlier post.

It is entirely possible to gain industry certs and work your way up from the bottom with no degree into an IT role. I did just that, -no leaving, no degree but it was very difficult to get people to take me seriously, it took a lot of certifications and the gift of the gab to get myself noticed. This is in Network Engineering mind, so more vocational and less academic than Programming.

Programming and web dev don't have the same level of respected certifications that can get you in the door.

Windows support, Linux support, Networking, VMware etc. These all have well known and well respected certification tracks that can get someone in at a low level without a degree, who can then work their way up to a successful IT career.

Programming/development/devops is different. There are no really well known or respected certifications for people starting out. A degree is nearly essential.

The difference between 'IT' and computer programming is crucial to be aware of.


As for me not having a degree - I am gettting to a senior stage in my career where I know I will encounter a glass ceiling. I have excellent qualifications but no degree and I am now looking at a distance learning degree in my early 30's in order to bridge that gap.

Do a comp science degree now, while you are young. You will thank yourself later for it.

intheclouds

Isaiah wrote: »

I am gettting to a senior stage in my career where I know I will encounter a glass ceiling. I have excellent qualifications but no degree and I am now looking at a distance learning degree in my early 30's in order to bridge that gap.

Im seeing more and more of this and for people in their 50s even.

I also think this becomes highlighted when redundancy happens. You might have a great CV full of relevant experience but if the minimum requirements for the job are a degree a lot of recruiters wont even offer an interview.

eeguy

IT has reached a stage where even a degree isn't enough to get you noticed, you'll be looking at a masters to distinguish yourselves from other applicants.

Also a good body of personal work in a git repository would be a great talking point.

The golden rule IMO is that experience has to be quantifiable. You have to be able to say to the interviewer "This is what I know and here's the evidence that I know it", so record everything and FINISH what you start.

That's why the pieces of paper matter, even if they're inconvenient.

syklops

Isaiah wrote: »

I think I need to clarify my earlier post.

It is entirely possible to gain industry certs and work your way up from the bottom with no degree into an IT role. I did just that, -no leaving, no degree but it was very difficult to get people to take me seriously, it took a lot of certifications and the gift of the gab to get myself noticed. This is in Network Engineering mind, so more vocational and less academic than Programming.

Programming and web dev don't have the same level of respected certifications that can get you in the door.

Windows support, Linux support, Networking, VMware etc. These all have well known and well respected certification tracks that can get someone in at a low level without a degree, who can then work their way up to a successful IT career.

Programming/development/devops is different. There are no really well known or respected certifications for people starting out. A degree is nearly essential.

The difference between 'IT' and computer programming is crucial to be aware of.


As for me not having a degree - I am gettting to a senior stage in my career where I know I will encounter a glass ceiling. I have excellent qualifications but no degree and I am now looking at a distance learning degree in my early 30's in order to bridge that gap.

Do a comp science degree now, while you are young. You will thank yourself later for it.

My experience is almost exactly the same. Leaving, but no degree, but I'd been tinkering with computers from an early age did some courses, got some certs and got the jobs I wanted.

Also a good body of personal work in a git repository would be a great talking point.

The golden rule IMO is that experience has to be quantifiable. You have to be able to say to the interviewer "This is what I know and here's the evidence that I know it", so record everything and FINISH what you start.

Absolutely. A git repo is invaluable in demonstrating knowledge or experience in particular languages or disciplines.

OP would want to get a move on. He says he is currently learning HTML. Something I picked up and played with when i was about 14. I learnt C on my summer holidays when I was 15. I am not a programmer by any means, but a knowledge of a couple of languages is a requirement in my line of work.

If the OP was already accomplished in a couple of areas then I'd be encouraging him to take his own route and skip college, but I don't get that impression.

Finally, the number one thing I feel I missed out on by not going to college? The college social experience. You can't recreate that and I do wish I'd gone for that reason alone.

intheclouds

syklops wrote: »

Finally, the number one thing I feel I missed out on by not going to college? The college social experience. You can't recreate that and I do wish I'd gone for that reason alone.

This. A thousand times this. Party times!

Avatar MIA

There will ALWAYS be exceptions.

However, by far, the greatest amount of opportunities will go to those with a degree.

No one here can say you wont succeed. But, even if you do get a start due to charisma or some other worthy attribute you'll most likely not progress (even with 4 years head start) as fast as someone with a degree.

Basically, work the system. Get your degree.

my friend

intheclouds wrote: »

Ive worked in IT for 20 years and we would bin a CV for a programming job that had no education or professional certifications on it. Why go for someone who has effectively nothing to show that they have any sort of staying power or willingness to learn when there will be 50 other CVs for the same job and some of them will have very impressive academic results as well as great experience?

You would have 'binned' both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, neither of whom meet your standards

intheclouds

my friend wrote: »

You would have 'binned' both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, neither of whom meet your standards

Yes. So what? They are absolute exceptions to every rule there is.

The chances that you hire someone uneducated who turns out to be the next Bill Gates are vanishingly low. No one with any sense in business is going to take that risk when they have people with undergraduates, masters degrees and experience applying for the same position as the guy with nothing on his CV who thinks he could be the next Bill Gates.

You would be a fool to take that risk imo.

Riverireland

intheclouds wrote: »

Im seeing more and more of this and for people in their 50s even.

I also think this becomes highlighted when redundancy happens. You might have a great CV full of relevant experience but if the minimum requirements for the job are a degree a lot of recruiters wont even offer an interview.

Unfortunately this is true. There is a culture currently where you must have a degree AND be under 40, ideally 30. Excellent salaries available to these groups. I do wonder what will happen to the current 20 something's when they are in their 40s with a mortgage and kids if this trend keeps up.

OP, get your degree under your belt if you can.

Avatar MIA

my friend wrote: »

You would have 'binned' both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, neither of whom meet your standards

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were innovators at the beginnings of a technology revolution.

I've not researched it, but I'd be amazed if Bill Gates or Steve Job's kids didn't have top class educations.

my friend

Avatar MIA wrote: »

I've not researched it, but I'd be amazed if Bill Gates or Steve Job's kids didn't have top class educations.

^^^ classic boards

You don't know by your own admission yet you post what? Your opinion? Get informed then contribute

Avatar MIA

my friend wrote: »

^^^ classic boards

You don't know by your own admission yet you post what? Your opinion? Get informed then contribute

The whole point was to do so without knowing to prove the point.

Have just come back and, yep, was right for those old enough to be in college.

BTW, typing "^^^^ classic boards" is itself classic boards.

syklops

Avatar MIA wrote: »

The whole point was to do so without knowing to prove the point.

Have just come back and, yep, was right for those old enough to be in college.

BTW, typing "^^^^ classic boards" is itself classic boards.

But you didnt prove the point.

Mrs OBumble

syklops wrote: »

Your Dad who loves computers and fixes phones in his spare time clearly has a passion and could get a successful IT career without a degree or any technical certs or experience(actually he has experience already from fixing phones).

Except he hasn't: most likely his dad is a security guard, sitting at the door of an IT company and listening to comments which may have come from someone who knows about hiring developers, or may have come from one of the facilities management staff dreamily speculating about how to get hired.

OP, you may be that one in a few-thousand who can be successful without 3rd level study.

If you are, then build yourself a portfolio of the things you've developed (hint: mobile app development is still one way that people like you can get started, another is open source projects). If you build enough portfolio you might get hired into a small company, from which you will get the experience to prove that you've learned to be a software engineer (note: engineer, not just a programmer: companies get them in low-cost geographies these days), and get head-hunted into a better company by a hiring manager who's prepared to bypass the HR department to get you.

Or you may have a brilliant idea, and the drive and passion to turn into a company like Stripe and become your town's version of the Collison brothers.

If either of these applies, great, fair play to you and every success.

But if it doesn't, then get cracking on your CAO application.

Avatar MIA

syklops wrote: »

But you didnt prove the point.

Sorry, what point was I trying to make? Can you let me know?

my friend

Avatar MIA wrote: »

The whole point was to do so without knowing to prove the point.

Have just come back and, yep, was right for those old enough to be in college.

BTW, typing "^^^^ classic boards" is itself classic boards.

You're swimming in a sea of self generated lost irony, grab the life buoy or things will become increasingly embarrassing for you, no doubt you'll then claim that was your intention, oh so meta.

intheclouds

my friend wrote: »

You're swimming in a sea of self generated lost irony, grab the life buoy or things will become increasingly embarrassing for you, no doubt you'll then claim that was your intention, oh so meta.

Do you actually have any advice for the OP?

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are exceptions. Its really unlikely that the OP is the next Bill Gates - sorry OP.

Avatar MIA

my friend wrote: »

You're swimming in a sea of self generated lost irony, grab the life buoy or things will become increasingly embarrassing for you, no doubt you'll then claim that was your intention, oh so meta.

What intheclouds said.

Why don't you put your undoubtedly massive intellect at the service of the OP and actually address his query.

syklops

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Except he hasn't: most likely his dad is a security guard, sitting at the door of an IT company

Whatever his Dad does, my point was, he seems more passionate than the OP comes across.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

...then build yourself a portfolio of the things you've developed (hint: mobile app development is still one way that people like you can get started, another is open source projects). If you build enough portfolio you might get hired into a small company, from which you will get the experience to prove that you've learned to be a software engineer (note: engineer, not just a programmer: companies get them in low-cost geographies these days), and get head-hunted into a better company by a hiring manager who's prepared to bypass the HR department to get you.

On the one hand I completely agree about building portfolios, however, from the original post, the OP has said he is currently learning HTML, which means he is a long way from building a smart phone app.

Sorry, what point was I trying to make? Can you let me know?

Ok, maybe I misunderstood you. What point were you making?

Avatar MIA

syklops wrote: »

Ok, maybe I misunderstood you. What point were you making?

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are hardly examples of why the OP should not pursue a degree. They are one in a few million and even the they were at the cusp of the technology they helped revolutionise.

However, they would be somewhat better examples if their offspring likewise eschewed third level education, but it seems as if they have not.

anothernight

OP, it's never a good idea to rely on being in the exception when it is well within your power to maximise your chances. You're still young. Going to college would not only bag you more interviews (degrees are one of many quick filters used by HR), but also give you a great life experience, help you with networking, as well as enabling you to use the four years to build up a decent personal portfolio.

You may also find it very beneficial to be able to do collaborative learning (e.g, with college friends), rather than trying to learn everything on your own, especially when you factor in the much limited free time and energy you would have if you were working full time. Just something to think about.

my friend

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are hardly examples of why the OP should not pursue a degree. They are one in a few million and even the they were at the cusp of the technology they helped revolutionise.

However, they would be somewhat better examples if their offspring likewise eschewed third level education, but it seems as if they have not.

You want more contemporary examples?

Travis Kalanick - Uber
Jan Koum - Whatsapp

My original point was that certain pontificators here would have binned these guys (Gates, Jobs) job applications, I'm merely demonstrating the lazy filter that they utilise

The old thinking that only a degree demonstrates application and or an engine is why companies like IBM carry such dead weight

Avatar MIA

my friend wrote: »

Travis Kalanick - Uber Alma materUniversity of California, Los Angeles
Jan Koum - Whatsapp San Jose State University (dropped out)

From Wiki... While Jan Koum dropped out. Did he make connections there, did he learn anything.

intheclouds

my friend wrote: »

You want more contemporary examples?

Travis Kalanick - Uber
Jan Koum - Whatsapp

My original point was that certain pontificators here would have binned these guys (Gates, Jobs) job applications, I'm merely demonstrating the lazy filter that they utilise

The old thinking that only a degree demonstrates application and or an engine is why companies like IBM carry such dead weight

I refer you to my post #31

When you can list 1 million+ names who made it in IT without a degree I might take it as a serious number, til then, as youve named 4, none of them Irish, I think I can dismiss the notion that "we might have lost the next Bill Gates by binning a CV without a degree on it".

Shoulda, woulda, coulda is not a good way to run a business, nor is hiring people on the off chance that they are geniuses.

twilight_singer

My advice - get a degree and go to college full time.
You will save yourself a lot of time and money this way.

I work in sys admin, started in IT 8 years ago by basically blagging a job on a Helpdesk through a managed services company. I had no degree but was studying at night for one, worked 9-5 and then into college 3 nights a week 6-10. It was an absolute slog and I had no life for 4 years.

Do it the fun way, even if you have no interest you will get a broader education and have some great life experiences. Think of all the support services that colleges provide with regards to work placement and career direction.

my friend

Avatar MIA wrote: »

From Wiki... While Jan Koum dropped out. Did he make connections there, did he learn anything.

Your research methods fail you again, Travis dropped out too.

I hope your employers aren't reliant on your attention to detail.

Regardless you have failed to grasp my OP

Avatar MIA

my friend wrote: »

Your research methods fail you again, Travis dropped out too.

I hope your employers aren't reliant on your attention to detail.

Regardless you have failed to grasp my OP

Just after looking a bit on Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.

Bill Gates was clearly a genius with computers while in the equivalent of secondary school and went on to Harvard, only dropping out to develop his own business.

Steve Jobs also went to university and only dropped out because it put severe financial strain on his parents. He also made some connections.

Everyone so far mentioned has at least attended college, which had benefits.
What is the point in referencing these people when the OP doesn't want to go to college.
BTW, what is your actual advice?

Eugene Norman

intheclouds wrote: »

Yes. So what? They are absolute exceptions to every rule there is.

The chances that you hire someone uneducated who turns out to be the next Bill Gates are vanishingly low. No one with any sense in business is going to take that risk when they have people with undergraduates, masters degrees and experience applying for the same position as the guy with nothing on his CV who thinks he could be the next Bill Gates.

You would be a fool to take that risk imo.

Why wouldn't you just take experience into account. A guy with a profile on GitHub and some portfolio is more valuable than a grad with no code.

Still needs to be interviewed to see if he fits in with a group.