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Getting a job in tech/IT no degree?

2

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 833 ✭✭✭Riverireland


    Im seeing more and more of this and for people in their 50s even.

    I also think this becomes highlighted when redundancy happens. You might have a great CV full of relevant experience but if the minimum requirements for the job are a degree a lot of recruiters wont even offer an interview.

    Unfortunately this is true. There is a culture currently where you must have a degree AND be under 40, ideally 30. Excellent salaries available to these groups. I do wonder what will happen to the current 20 something's when they are in their 40s with a mortgage and kids if this trend keeps up.

    OP, get your degree under your belt if you can.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    my friend wrote: »
    You would have 'binned' both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, neither of whom meet your standards

    Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were innovators at the beginnings of a technology revolution.

    I've not researched it, but I'd be amazed if Bill Gates or Steve Job's kids didn't have top class educations.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,129 ✭✭✭my friend


    Avatar MIA wrote: »

    I've not researched it, but I'd be amazed if Bill Gates or Steve Job's kids didn't have top class educations.

    ^^^ classic boards

    You don't know by your own admission yet you post what? Your opinion? Get informed then contribute


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    my friend wrote: »
    ^^^ classic boards

    You don't know by your own admission yet you post what? Your opinion? Get informed then contribute

    The whole point was to do so without knowing to prove the point.

    Have just come back and, yep, was right for those old enough to be in college.

    BTW, typing "^^^^ classic boards" is itself classic boards.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    The whole point was to do so without knowing to prove the point.

    Have just come back and, yep, was right for those old enough to be in college.

    BTW, typing "^^^^ classic boards" is itself classic boards.

    But you didnt prove the point.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,706 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    syklops wrote: »
    Your Dad who loves computers and fixes phones in his spare time clearly has a passion and could get a successful IT career without a degree or any technical certs or experience(actually he has experience already from fixing phones).

    Except he hasn't: most likely his dad is a security guard, sitting at the door of an IT company and listening to comments which may have come from someone who knows about hiring developers, or may have come from one of the facilities management staff dreamily speculating about how to get hired.

    OP, you may be that one in a few-thousand who can be successful without 3rd level study.

    If you are, then build yourself a portfolio of the things you've developed (hint: mobile app development is still one way that people like you can get started, another is open source projects). If you build enough portfolio you might get hired into a small company, from which you will get the experience to prove that you've learned to be a software engineer (note: engineer, not just a programmer: companies get them in low-cost geographies these days), and get head-hunted into a better company by a hiring manager who's prepared to bypass the HR department to get you.

    Or you may have a brilliant idea, and the drive and passion to turn into a company like Stripe and become your town's version of the Collison brothers.

    If either of these applies, great, fair play to you and every success.

    But if it doesn't, then get cracking on your CAO application.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    syklops wrote: »
    But you didnt prove the point.

    Sorry, what point was I trying to make? Can you let me know?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,129 ✭✭✭my friend


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    The whole point was to do so without knowing to prove the point.

    Have just come back and, yep, was right for those old enough to be in college.

    BTW, typing "^^^^ classic boards" is itself classic boards.

    You're swimming in a sea of self generated lost irony, grab the life buoy or things will become increasingly embarrassing for you, no doubt you'll then claim that was your intention, oh so meta.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    my friend wrote: »
    You're swimming in a sea of self generated lost irony, grab the life buoy or things will become increasingly embarrassing for you, no doubt you'll then claim that was your intention, oh so meta.

    Do you actually have any advice for the OP?

    Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are exceptions. Its really unlikely that the OP is the next Bill Gates - sorry OP.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    my friend wrote: »
    You're swimming in a sea of self generated lost irony, grab the life buoy or things will become increasingly embarrassing for you, no doubt you'll then claim that was your intention, oh so meta.

    What intheclouds said.

    Why don't you put your undoubtedly massive intellect at the service of the OP and actually address his query.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Except he hasn't: most likely his dad is a security guard, sitting at the door of an IT company

    Whatever his Dad does, my point was, he seems more passionate than the OP comes across.
    ...then build yourself a portfolio of the things you've developed (hint: mobile app development is still one way that people like you can get started, another is open source projects). If you build enough portfolio you might get hired into a small company, from which you will get the experience to prove that you've learned to be a software engineer (note: engineer, not just a programmer: companies get them in low-cost geographies these days), and get head-hunted into a better company by a hiring manager who's prepared to bypass the HR department to get you.

    On the one hand I completely agree about building portfolios, however, from the original post, the OP has said he is currently learning HTML, which means he is a long way from building a smart phone app.

    Sorry, what point was I trying to make? Can you let me know?

    Ok, maybe I misunderstood you. What point were you making?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    syklops wrote: »

    Ok, maybe I misunderstood you. What point were you making?

    Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are hardly examples of why the OP should not pursue a degree. They are one in a few million and even the they were at the cusp of the technology they helped revolutionise.

    However, they would be somewhat better examples if their offspring likewise eschewed third level education, but it seems as if they have not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭anothernight


    OP, it's never a good idea to rely on being in the exception when it is well within your power to maximise your chances. You're still young. Going to college would not only bag you more interviews (degrees are one of many quick filters used by HR), but also give you a great life experience, help you with networking, as well as enabling you to use the four years to build up a decent personal portfolio.

    You may also find it very beneficial to be able to do collaborative learning (e.g, with college friends), rather than trying to learn everything on your own, especially when you factor in the much limited free time and energy you would have if you were working full time. Just something to think about.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,129 ✭✭✭my friend


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are hardly examples of why the OP should not pursue a degree. They are one in a few million and even the they were at the cusp of the technology they helped revolutionise.

    However, they would be somewhat better examples if their offspring likewise eschewed third level education, but it seems as if they have not.

    You want more contemporary examples?

    Travis Kalanick - Uber
    Jan Koum - Whatsapp

    My original point was that certain pontificators here would have binned these guys (Gates, Jobs) job applications, I'm merely demonstrating the lazy filter that they utilise

    The old thinking that only a degree demonstrates application and or an engine is why companies like IBM carry such dead weight


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    my friend wrote: »

    Travis Kalanick - Uber Alma materUniversity of California, Los Angeles
    Jan Koum - Whatsapp San Jose State University (dropped out)

    From Wiki... While Jan Koum dropped out. Did he make connections there, did he learn anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    my friend wrote: »
    You want more contemporary examples?

    Travis Kalanick - Uber
    Jan Koum - Whatsapp

    My original point was that certain pontificators here would have binned these guys (Gates, Jobs) job applications, I'm merely demonstrating the lazy filter that they utilise

    The old thinking that only a degree demonstrates application and or an engine is why companies like IBM carry such dead weight

    I refer you to my post #31

    When you can list 1 million+ names who made it in IT without a degree I might take it as a serious number, til then, as youve named 4, none of them Irish, I think I can dismiss the notion that "we might have lost the next Bill Gates by binning a CV without a degree on it".

    Shoulda, woulda, coulda is not a good way to run a business, nor is hiring people on the off chance that they are geniuses.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 340 ✭✭twilight_singer


    My advice - get a degree and go to college full time.
    You will save yourself a lot of time and money this way.

    I work in sys admin, started in IT 8 years ago by basically blagging a job on a Helpdesk through a managed services company. I had no degree but was studying at night for one, worked 9-5 and then into college 3 nights a week 6-10. It was an absolute slog and I had no life for 4 years.

    Do it the fun way, even if you have no interest you will get a broader education and have some great life experiences. Think of all the support services that colleges provide with regards to work placement and career direction.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,129 ✭✭✭my friend


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    From Wiki... While Jan Koum dropped out. Did he make connections there, did he learn anything.

    Your research methods fail you again, Travis dropped out too.

    I hope your employers aren't reliant on your attention to detail.

    Regardless you have failed to grasp my OP


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    my friend wrote: »
    Your research methods fail you again, Travis dropped out too.

    I hope your employers aren't reliant on your attention to detail.

    Regardless you have failed to grasp my OP

    Just after looking a bit on Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.

    Bill Gates was clearly a genius with computers while in the equivalent of secondary school and went on to Harvard, only dropping out to develop his own business.

    Steve Jobs also went to university and only dropped out because it put severe financial strain on his parents. He also made some connections.

    Everyone so far mentioned has at least attended college, which had benefits.
    What is the point in referencing these people when the OP doesn't want to go to college.
    BTW, what is your actual advice?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Yes. So what? They are absolute exceptions to every rule there is.

    The chances that you hire someone uneducated who turns out to be the next Bill Gates are vanishingly low. No one with any sense in business is going to take that risk when they have people with undergraduates, masters degrees and experience applying for the same position as the guy with nothing on his CV who thinks he could be the next Bill Gates.

    You would be a fool to take that risk imo.

    Why wouldn't you just take experience into account. A guy with a profile on GitHub and some portfolio is more valuable than a grad with no code.

    Still needs to be interviewed to see if he fits in with a group.


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  • Posts: 5,250 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Why wouldn't you just take experience into account. A guy with a profile on GitHub and some portfolio is more valuable than a grad with no code.

    Still needs to be interviewed to see if he fits in with a group.
    The employer mightn't have the time to consider every application so they apply filters.

    One of the most basic filters is education.

    OP - getting a job without a degree can be done but you will be limiting your options in the future by excluding yourself from lots of entry level and experienced jobs which require a degree.

    Go to college and continue your projects & certification at the same time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    Why wouldn't you just take experience into account. A guy with a profile on GitHub and some portfolio is more valuable than a grad with no code.

    Still needs to be interviewed to see if he fits in with a group.

    In the past we did hire people with no education to speak of but good experience. But time and time again we have run into the same problem - they just dont fit, they are generally good in a very small area but useless outside of that. Its very costly hiring someone so its just easier to try and cover all bases by getting someone who at least has a rounded education AND some experience if possible.

    GitHub has been around for a very small fraction of my working life so cant really comment on it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Except he hasn't: most likely his dad is a security guard, sitting at the door of an IT company and listening to comments which may have come from someone who knows about hiring developers, or may have come from one of the facilities management staff dreamily speculating about how to get hired.

    OP, you may be that one in a few-thousand who can be successful without 3rd level study.

    If you are, then build yourself a portfolio of the things you've developed (hint: mobile app development is still one way that people like you can get started, another is open source projects). If you build enough portfolio you might get hired into a small company, from which you will get the experience to prove that you've learned to be a software engineer (note: engineer, not just a programmer: companies get them in low-cost geographies these days), and get head-hunted into a better company by a hiring manager who's prepared to bypass the HR department to get you.

    Or you may have a brilliant idea, and the drive and passion to turn into a company like Stripe and become your town's version of the Collison brothers.

    If either of these applies, great, fair play to you and every success.

    But if it doesn't, then get cracking on your CAO application.

    I guess given I work in mobile my attitude is different. A GitHub repository and some apps on the store is worth more than a degree where you learned academic stuff but not say iOS dev (which isn't taught anywhere).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    In the past we did hire people with no education to speak of but good experience. But time and time again we have run into the same problem - they just dont fit, they are generally good in a very small area but useless outside of that. Its very costly hiring someone so its just easier to try and cover all bases by getting someone who at least has a rounded education AND some experience if possible.

    GitHub has been around for a very small fraction of my working life so cant really comment on it.

    You're right about the fitting in. And some people can write a good looking app with no understanding of design patterns. But good clean code in GitHub written by an applicant is a good test of interest and ability. It would beat the degree alone, for sure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    I guess given I work in mobile my attitude is different. A GitHub repository and some apps on the store is worth more than a degree where you learned academic stuff but not say iOS dev (which isn't taught anywhere).

    I agree that there are some specific areas things might be a bit different.

    I come from a time where degrees in IT/Computer Science/Software Engineering were quite new, only around 10 years or so. But we still wanted people with "some" degree as transferrable skills are still learned in formal education.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,012 ✭✭✭BizzyC


    Getting an education in programming will teach you basics of languages, good practices and an understanding of all the relevant concepts behind coding.
    Knowing how to be a programmer enables you to pick up languages easily and learn from/communicate with other developers.

    Also, as stated before, HTML + CSS is something anyone can put on a CV and is a long way off proper programming.

    Go to college, get a strong basis of knowledge first and do whatever work you can on the side to get some experience along the way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Musicman2000


    The government have launched a new apprenticeship scheme back in July, This includes the IT sector so it will give people the option to go down the academic route or Vocational which in my option would be the better option for anyone starting off and it would be the equivalent to a degree.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭homeOwner


    TheBiz wrote: »
    Even for a entry level job in a company? Something along the lines of tech support? Then learning to programme/code on my own?

    I though it might be best to leave out my plans for self employment! I can't imagine that helping my chances.

    I know in England they do higher apprenticeships in areas like software development and even things like business administration and engineering. British Airways for example have these apprenticeships.
    Is there anything of that nature here? Like a training programme?..

    Tech support isn't going to help you get a programming job unless you are extremely lucky and meet a manager inside the company willing to let you move to their department, and it will kill your soul!!

    Someone mentioned about missing out on Bill Gates and Steve Jobs by not considering someone without a degree but to be honest most companies don't want a Bill Gates or a Steve jobs, cause they will leave within a year and go out on their own. Companies want to find an employee who has proven they can finish a degree in some related field (even physics or maths grads are hired into development teams), learn fast, turn up every day and toe the company line, basically. If a bit of genius can be thrown in too that's a bonus.

    As recent as say 15 years ago you could get a foot in the door with no degree, all those on here who got into programming without a degree are evidence of that. Nowadays almost everyone has some sort of degree so the entry bar as been raised.

    Seriously the best advice I can give you is to go to college and enjoy it. Do your own coding on the side and at least you have options in four years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,522 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    my friend wrote: »
    You want more contemporary examples?

    Travis Kalanick - Uber
    Jan Koum - Whatsapp

    My original point was that certain pontificators here would have binned these guys (Gates, Jobs) job applications, I'm merely demonstrating the lazy filter that they utilise

    The old thinking that only a degree demonstrates application and or an engine is why companies like IBM carry such dead weight

    Hers some more contemporary examples, my mates Anto, Mark, Dave and Rog. All unemployed with no degree.

    Op, hmtl isnt coding. If a recruiter is looking at a rake of CVs of people that have passion, a portfolio and a degree then you are at a severe disadvantage given that you have at best 2 out of 3.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 506 ✭✭✭Ant695


    Looking through this thread I agree that the OP could do it either way but the other thing to consider is that if he got a level 1 helpdesk job to gain experience while learning to code and creating a portfolio that experience has little to do with actual programming so he has learned to code and spent time on a helpdesk.

    The people who pursue the degree can learn the languages, build the portfolio and gain a qualification. Not to mention their classmates who can become potential contacts, lecturers who almost certainly have spent time in industry and know people that they can put students in contact with, Also the companies that may interact with the college and come in to talk to students and look for the best and the brightest. I know that's what quite a few do at my college they request student records etc... then offer interviews to those who meet the standards.


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