Is is not discrimination ?

Mrs OBumble

Tigger wrote: »

what irish company do you think is similar to m&s?
what % are "visibly of African origin" work in the m&s that you refer to.
what % of people in Ireland are "visibly of African origin "

and that term annoys me are we not all from Africa originally do you mean Black people? and if you mean black people do you mean Irish Black people or immigrants?

Do you really think I'm so dumb that I'd name a similar company here? Can you even imagine the trouble that could get boards.ie into, and thus the size of the ban it would get me?

I mean exactly what I said. Ok, so some people who look like they're of African origin might have been born in places other than the African continent, including Ireland. There might even be the occasional Melanesian floating around among them. And there will certainly be some white people who wouldn't be counted even though they were born in Africa. But still the overall visual trend is pretty easy to see.

Tigger

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Do you really think I'm so dumb that I'd name a similar company here? Can you even imagine the trouble that could get boards.ie into, and thus the size of the ban it would get me?

I mean exactly what I said. Ok, so some people who look like they're of African origin might have been born in places other than the African continent, including Ireland. There might even be the occasional Melanesian floating around among them. And there will certainly be some white people who wouldn't be counted even though they were born in Africa. But still the overall visual trend is pretty easy to see.

i don';t think there is a store similar to m&s i'm not trying to get you in trouble

but answer this
what % are "visibly of African origin" work in the m&s that you refer to.
what % of people in Ireland are "visibly of African origin "

BreadnBuddha

Two words, people:

Non EU

Here's two more:

Work Permit

Unless you can replace those last two with Permanent Residency, forget about a role change or promotion unless you are incredibly well suited for the position.

Seen it time and again. Get permanent residency, you're good to move up. Until then, understand the limitations affecting you and don't anyone be so quick to entertain the notion that it's some kind of racial discrimination at play.

Wake up lads.

Tigger

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Two words, people:

Non EU

Here's two more:

Work Permit

Unless you can replace those last two with Permanent Residency, forget about a role change or promotion unless you are incredibly well suited for the position.

Seen it time and again. Get permanent residency, you're good to move up. Until then, understand the limitations affecting you and don't anyone be so quick to entertain the notion that it's some kind of racial discrimination at play.

Wake up lads.

i was reading up on that to reply
if you are non permanent then there is no point in putting you in a critical position was a gut feeling
one that won't be voiced but a valid difference

blindsider

@Tigger (Query on previous page)

Gender Identity

https://thepeninsulairelandblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/01/grounds-for-discrimination-to-increase-to-10/


This provides more info.....

http://www.teni.ie/attachments/cd9c068f-2b85-4654-8ee9-34d45b4ed609.PDF

Malcolm600f

blindsider wrote: »

WTF? Did you think before you typed? That is appallingly racist!

How the hell can you state what i said was racist..
I never said anything against any race or discriminated against any race.
I said can a person not be of the view to employ Irish people first ...........If i have MY own Business I set up with MY money then i think I should be fit to employ who ever the hell I want and not have to be branded as racist or any other tag... I have had Eastern European people work for me as well as African as well as Irish so clearly not racist in any means despite what you think..

Tigger

blindsider wrote: »

@Tigger (Query on previous page)

Gender Identity

https://thepeninsulairelandblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/01/grounds-for-discrimination-to-increase-to-10/


This provides more info.....

http://www.teni.ie/attachments/cd9c068f-2b85-4654-8ee9-34d45b4ed609.PDF

Thanks
Makes sense

blindsider

Malcolm600f wrote: »

How the hell can you state what i said was racist..
I never said anything against any race or discriminated against any race.
I said can a person not be of the view to employ Irish people first ...........If i have MY own Business I set up with MY money then i think I should be fit to employ who ever the hell I want and not have to be branded as racist or any other tag... I have had Eastern European people work for me as well as African as well as Irish so clearly not racist in any means despite what you think..

If you treat people differently, based on their race, then what are you?


To answer the q above in bold: No. You cannot.


The law of the land says that you must not do this in the work-place.


Your business, and your money are still subject to the law of the land. It is not optional.

I hope this is clear for you.

Full Marx

Are you a member of a trade union?

orl

Very interesting post, OP. I think you have described 'unconscious bias' very well. As other posters have alluded it seems to be a case of the perception of non-anglophone employees ' not fitting in', 'cultural differences' etc. Fine to do the grunt work but not management material. That is discriminiation - the definition of discrimination is being treated less favourably because of nationality/race in this context

I would have to know you personally or your bosses to advise you the approach to take. I definitely think it is discrimination. In the case attached employees went door to door getting people to switch to airtricity. Most of the cold-call salespeople were not Irish but the managers were overwhelmingly Irish. The big boss recommended people for promotion when a vacancy came up and, surprise, surprise, every single one was Caucasian:
https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Cases/2011/February/DEC-E2011-025-Full-Case-Report.html

You said your employer was a small company. Does it have a HR person? Do you respect her (nearly always women in HR). Does she get things done? Is she sufficiently powerful in the company? If so, you might ask for a meeting, give her the attached case and say you believe the same is going on in your company. Say that you do not wish to pursue the legal option but explain what you see is happening.

If you feel the HR person only does the higher-ups bidding, approach a senior manager that you respect instead.

If you feel that this wouldn't be taken seriously, look for opportunities elsewhere.

witchgirl26

Malcolm600f wrote: »

How the hell can you state what i said was racist..
I never said anything against any race or discriminated against any race.
I said can a person not be of the view to employ Irish people first ...........If i have MY own Business I set up with MY money then i think I should be fit to employ who ever the hell I want and not have to be branded as racist or any other tag... I have had Eastern European people work for me as well as African as well as Irish so clearly not racist in any means despite what you think..

blindsider wrote: »

If you treat people differently, based on their race, then what are you?


To answer the q above in bold: No. You cannot.


The law of the land says that you must not do this in the work-place.


Your business, and your money are still subject to the law of the land. It is not optional.

I hope this is clear for you.

Just wondering on this. In Canada they have a rule that says you can only hire a foreign worker if you can't find an Canadian who can fulfill the role. I don't think that's racist but more making sure that natives have jobs before accounting for economic migrants. I think Australia have something similar in some areas of work too (nurses I think based on conversations with friends).

It's an interesting one but I do think that a country has a responsibility for it's own citizens first rather than economic migrants.

Dodge

Work permits apply in all countries, including Ireland. Exceptions are made for EU citizens but a company here can only apply to employ an Indian citizen if they can prove they can't find an EU citizen to take that job. And even then it only applies to certain jobs

You can see the list of jobs that work permits are not granted for here
https://www.djei.ie/en/What-We-Do/Jobs-Workplace-and-Skills/Employment-Permits/Employment-Permit-Eligibility/Ineligible-Categories-of-Employment/

Mrs OBumble

witchgirl26 wrote: »

It's an interesting one but I do think that a country has a responsibility for it's own citizens first rather than economic migrants.

Except if that country joins a wider economic network that looks after all member countries, and offers free labour movement within the area.

In that case, countries have a responsibility citizens of all member-states before migrants (economic and otherwise) from non-member states.

sac2020

jmayo wrote: »

A Lot of posters are drawing a conclusion that maybe the OP is not suitable.
It maybe their personality, they may be picky, they may be too detailed oriented, etc, etc.
Some even hinted they may think he has a chip on his should about being deserving and others are not.

That of course may be true, but has anybody bothered noticing some of the rest of the post.

None of the "foreigners", who make up approx. 25% of workforce, are ever brought into meetings, yet Irish guys just in the door are.

And it isn't just the OP who has noticed this, so have others and some have already left.

That to me rings some alarm bells.

I have seen enough Irish organisations where cliques are the order of the day.
Sometimes the cliques are the owners and their buddies, sometimes it is centered around a couple of people.
In one company I was contracting there was a major clique based around the golf society.

Anyway it can lead to an "us and them" toxic bitchy environment.
You are either in or you are out.
if you are in the "connected crowd" you could be on a fast path to perks and promotions.
If you are outside then you are pi**ing against the wind.

As I said I think the OP is better off moving to new pastures.

Had a busy weekend and just getting a chance to read the posts( still going thru them)
Just quoting this one while I go thru the other later .

I know there are some questions about my suitability/capability as a manager.
I can tell you that that I have managed small/big teams in my previous companie(s)- so that is atleast 2 companies for a tenure of more than 5 yrs.
about English/Communicating in English - I am in a role where I have to interact with our customers at times. Give presentations.. and maintain business relation with them which would be 20% of my time. with a very neutral accent & acknowledged by a number of sr members in the company.
Not to point out again- but a number of guys in my org have irish accent( i was told from Tipprary and cork side etc) which is hard to understand even by the local dublin guys.

Also to give more background I have worked in US, Canada for a year each and Uk for 6 months. I always felt like home with the treatment given by the guys there in US and Canada. UK was just Ok... but living in ireland for 4 yrs now never got that feeling of 'acceptance' in office.

Joined this org (one level below) because it was giving me the exp and exposure that I wanted. within first 6 months I was told my performance was good and we should give you a better role...which I am doing for the last 1 yr or so.. but with limitations like taking cost decisions , attending imp meetings etc.. where we are not taken to.. and hence the frustration.

Think am mature enough to compare but the new guy has very limited knowledge on the area we are working on.almost same exp than mine.. but was promoted .. maybe the management thinks he'll stay there long term but again if u dont do justice to the existing employee then they are bound to leave.

Coming back to the topic of discrimination , I started this thread as this ws not just my thinking but almost all of my outsider friends .. they do feel the same in their team etc. and its not limited in this company but where they have worked previously.
or from friends who work in other companies.

the situation might be a bit better with big corporates but the it really depends on the percentage of outsiders and how long the company is recruiting them .. or have an onshore offshore model.

saying it for those guys as well. the feeling is that the acceptance is still low as compared to other places

sac2020

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Why does everything have to be deemed as discrimination..
Cant someone not have right to be with the view to employ Irish people before employing any other nationally .That is not racist or discrimination its about looking after our fellow native people first ..The whole racist and discrimination think has gone OTT in the country to be completely honest ..

ok, for my knowledge . A lot of people from Ireland have moved from here to US, Canada and australia. can we start this question to those guys who have moved in these countries and expect to be treated fairly.

sac2020

Rachiee wrote: »

It could very well be discrimination but the problem is how do you prove it, there's a definite pattern to who is being promoted, but it would be very easy for them to make excuses as to how and why they make their decicions.
If as you say you've had management experience in your previous role the longer you are with this company being passed over the bigger the gap will look on your cv it may be time to start looking elsewhere.

Exactly,
I have been given multiple reasons from not the right time, need to spend more time in my current role and take additional responsibilities and prove ur metal. which I am doing for a year. etc etc.

sac2020

seamus wrote: »

How often do you have any kind of performance reviews with your manager? You should be able to call a meeting with him on that topic and explain that you're eager to see yourself promoted and want to do more for the company. So he should be then able to explain what you need to do, or at the very least you will now be in his mind.

In my experience, discrimination does happen but it's usually unintentional. I don't think Irish workplaces are hostile to "outsiders", but culturally there is a lot less tolerance for people who have trouble with English. You rarely see people from other Anglophones - US, UK, OZ - having difficulty getting ahead in Irish workplaces, but people from other countries who struggle to communicate naturally through English will get overlooked for tasks and promotions. This often simply because the other person doesn't want the headache of dealing with it.

It doesn't necessarily have to be poor English - I've worked with a few Chinese guys who can read and write very effectively, even naturally, over email but are stuck with very strong accents when speaking. In a one-to-one meeting you might be OK, but in a busy meeting or - holy jaysus - in the pub, you will actively avoid engaging with them because you can't make out a thing.

Do you have a strong accent? Do you find that co-workers will go out of their way to email you rather than speak to you? Do people seem to be constantly asking you to repeat yourself or misinterpreting what you're saying? Especially out socially does talking seem to be a huge struggle? If so, this could be your problem.

Think i replied to all this in my latest post.
As I said, i have a neutral accent. I have had long conversations with my colleagues at pub if that helps to judge my communication skills.
I agree all the outsiders (Asians, african origin ) etc dont mix up with the local guys and dont to pubs that frequently. but this is all outside office work.

TBH i am surprised on why people here are surprised - that Indians can talk in english and that too very fluently. ( I am talking about my office guys here seamus).
It is like a first language to us since birth in many big cities. and most of the Indian IT guys have a very good global experience. so its actually the other way around where the irish guys ( in my small company) dont have such global experience.
This was the topic discuss in pub the last time i went out with the guys..

Mrs OBumble

sac2020, one thing to remember that that until recently Ireland was a lot more sheltered from immigrants than most Western countries.

I've heard stories about some "Pakistani" people being here in the 1930s. (I have no idea if they really were from Pakistan, or if it was just a generic word for foreign - suspect the latter.) But they were very rare. And apart from that, a non-white person, or even a white one who wasn't an American tourist, was pretty rare in these parts.

Some of your Irish colleagues will have had a great deal less international exposure than you - and are likely to have both unconscious and conscious bias (as seen earlier in the thread).

sac2020

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

sac2020, one thing to remember that that until recently Ireland was a lot more sheltered from immigrants than most Western countries.

I've heard stories about some "Pakistani" people being here in the 1930s. (I have no idea if they really were from Pakistan, or if it was just a generic word for foreign - suspect the latter.) But they were very rare. And apart from that, a non-white person, or even a white one who wasn't an American tourist, was pretty rare in these parts.

Some of your Irish colleagues will have had a great deal less international exposure than you - and are likely to have both unconscious and conscious bias (as seen earlier in the thread).

Well yes, i may be conscious or unconscious bias, thats the reason I said the acceptance is not there at the moment.

in the 30's there was no Pakistan so I guess they would be Indians. But yeah you wont believe there are many Indian restaurants in Ireland which are actually owned by pakistanis or Bangladeshi's.. both the countries born from India.

There are a lot more Asians in the last 10 yrs so as I was just chatting with my friend, it would take a while for the people here to accept the immigrants...a generation ( worst case) where all the kids study together , gel togther..

BizzyC

One question I would have, what are your personal relationships like with the guys around you?

Are you friendly with the people you work with, or do you purely engage with them on a project/task based communication.

A lot of people seem to forget that in order to move up to management you have to display the ability to manage people on a personal level. It could simply be a case that you demonstrate good working knowledge and ability, but little in terms of leadership skills.

Mrs OBumble

sac2020 wrote: »

There are a lot more Asians in the last 10 yrs so as I was just chatting with my friend, it would take a while for the people here to accept the immigrants...a generation ( worst case) where all the kids study together , gel togther..

Probably more than a generation: this is a very change-resistant culture. Outsiders are routinely viewed with suspicion (called "blow-ins") whether they come from the next street, estate, suburb, town, county or continent. And Ireland has had to face up to some very unhappy aspects of their own culture in recent years: the way they treat foreigners is nothing compared to the way they treated some of their own not so very long ago.

So some degree of workplace discrimination is not overly surprising. Not right, of course, but not surprising.

Choose your battles.

Tigger

Can you stop knocking Irish people please. It's been pointed out that a non eu person will have problems being made important due to uncertainty with their future.
The op is specially talking about non eu people and you've also suggested that Irish people called people Packastani before the country even existed. I'm not saying this as back seat moderation but you are giving your opinion and personal experiences of Irish businesses as fact rather than showing stats .

eeguy

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Just wondering on this. In Canada they have a rule that says you can only hire a foreign worker if you can't find an Canadian who can fulfill the role.

Is that not the rule that you can't hire someone who is currently resident in a foreign country to work in Canada?

Stops an employer getting work visas for friends back home at the expense of those living in the host country.

Tigger

eeguy wrote: »

Is that not the rule that you can't hire someone who is currently resident in a foreign country to work in Canada?

Stops an employer getting work visas for friends back home at the expense of those living in the host country.

Yeah but there is a clearly defined points system that allows you get a work permit
I've a mate that got a Canadian residency visa off his own back before he married a Canadian national so he would t be beholden
He must have thought something was gonna happen tho cos they broke up.

orl

Hi Sac2020

I would be curious what you are going to do having read people's responses.

sac2020

I will have to answer yes to everything u said . Good working relation with colleagues and managers . That's my perspective But I have few good friends .
Also as I said I have a good exp as a manager and even here don't think it's rocket science with the current role . Am also saying it from the fact that this being a pure Irish company. They are avoiding anyone outside a limited set of local people into management roles. And avoidance of non eu in any important meeting. Local guys with even 1-2 years of exp are getting en more importance in the company than to experienced guys .

BizzyC wrote: »

One question I would have, what are your personal relationships like with the guys around you?

Are you friendly with the people you work with, or do you purely engage with them on a project/task based communication.

A lot of people seem to forget that in order to move up to management you have to display the ability to manage people on a personal level. It could simply be a case that you demonstrate good working knowledge and ability, but little in terms of leadership skills.

sac2020

orl wrote: »

Hi Sac2020

I would be curious what you are going to do having read people's responses.

I will be speaking to my manager and HR again . If nothing changes then look for a new job where there is more acceptance. I know my skills and am sure I can get a job easily outside . It is going to be loss for the company as well I would say


Secondly I think I will just start a group - don't know yet how and where - but to discuss these kind of issues . Racism and discrimination cannot and should not be accepted .
'Name and shame ' is another option which can be done but have to think of legal implications and make sure you have all th proofs .
Sometime it's bit difficult as as outside with limited support u r still trying to sort different things rather than getting into this mess .
Unofficially the name and shame is already being done amongst the groups and the companies to avoid.
But if anyone has any ideas I would like to hear out .

sac2020

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Probably more than a generation: this is a very change-resistant culture. Outsiders are routinely viewed with suspicion (called "blow-ins") whether they come from the next street, estate, suburb, town, county or continent. And Ireland has had to face up to some very unhappy aspects of their own culture in recent years: the way they treat foreigners is nothing compared to the way they treated some of their own not so very long ago.

So some degree of workplace discrimination is not overly surprising. Not right, of course, but not surprising.

Choose your battles.

Yes and when someone is moving in the country for employment it should be seen as to benefit both sides . You get a highly skilled person and in return the person expects to be treated with respect. You cannot just say that ok work ur as off and in return you are not getting anything apart from money ( which by the way they always try to pay you less than local guys) . Again am saying of my experience mostly in states and Canada and UK a bit. And this is not just my opinion but the opinion of a number of people from my country and who are working here in different companies. Maybe I can ask some to join boards to add their experience.

Tigger

sac2020 wrote: »

I will be speaking to my manager and HR again . If nothing changes then look for a new job where there is more acceptance. I know my skills and am sure I can get a job easily outside . It is going to be loss for the company as well I would say


Secondly I think I will just start a group - don't know yet how and where - but to discuss these kind of issues . Racism and discrimination cannot and should not be accepted .
'Name and shame ' is another option which can be done but have to think of legal implications and make sure you have all th proofs .
Sometime it's bit difficult as as outside with limited support u r still trying to sort different things rather than getting into this mess .
Unofficially the name and shame is already being done amongst the groups and the companies to avoid.
But if anyone has any ideas I would like to hear out .

i think you should tell us how there is racisim, what type of work permit do you have? how long does it last? do you not understand that without permanent residence you will find it hard to progress

Stheno

Tigger wrote: »

i think you should tell us how there is racisim, what type of work permit do you have? how long does it last? do you not understand that without permanent residence you will find it hard to progress

Actually that's a really good (and blatantly obvious) point you've just raised.

To be able to employ non-EU staff, a company has to be able to justify not being able to find any EU citizens for the role.

So management roles may not fall under the criteria as it may be difficult to prove you can't find EU staff to fill the rolem so the visa will then not be issued