Is is not discrimination ?

sac2020

dont like writing long stories..

my simple problem..
Am in a company for almost 2 years..doing really good.
havnt got any hikes pr promotion.

I see in other teams that most of the local guys when an opportunity came they were given a promotion or more importance. But for me even though i know the system very well and have my name in the company, but somhow there's seem to be a reluctance in promoting me.
And it is not just me whos impacted, there are atleast 25% employees from outside EU(mix of indians , chinese , SA), but none of them is given a managerial position.
P.S - I have already played managerial position for last 4-5 in my previous org back in India, but here though I was initially told I will be given such a role, but that hasnt happened till date.

Also noted that in all the imp meetings the management team seems to avoid taking us in the meeting. A new joiner local guy can join the meeting for xyz reason, but we are avoided.

Its not a very big company so we all know what is happening, some have started to move out, but I dont want to give up that fast. I like my job and I deserve to get more. spoken to my manager and even the head of the dept but getting false promises.
Recently another local guy who joined 6 months back was given promotion ignoring me. and hes is so undeserving.. so the decision surprised everyone.
even one local friend of mine who said the same to me but again cannot say in open.

I wanted to get some views if they know this discrimination is common in their workplace. and what do do in such a case .. u cannot really fight alone.
someone told me that in Ireland the acceptance of outsiders is still less as compared to countries like US, UK , canada and australia . The immigration although happening for a long time in Ireland, but still its quite new as compared to other companies. (in terms of years and decades) and the 1st and 2nd generation of outsiders.

sorry wanted this to be a short post.
it might be a controversial topic for some. but just trying to put some thoughts here what I/we think.

Not a saving grace statement for this post- But Personally I have made some good frnds here and gel along very well with my frnds, but when it comes to professional life things are way way different.

CosmicSmash

sac2020 wrote: »

dont like writing long stories..

my simple problem..
Am in a company for almost 2 years..doing really good.
havnt got any hikes pr promotion.

I see in other teams that most of the local guys when an opportunity came they were given a promotion or more importance. But for me even though i know the system very well and have my name in the company, but somhow there's seem to be a reluctance in promoting me.
And it is not just me whos impacted, there are atleast 25% employees from outside EU(mix of indians , chinese , SA), but none of them is given a managerial position.
P.S - I have already played managerial position for last 4-5 in my previous org back in India, but here though I was initially told I will be given such a role, but that hasnt happened till date.

Also noted that in all the imp meetings the management team seems to avoid taking us in the meeting. A new joiner local guy can join the meeting for xyz reason, but we are avoided.

Its not a very big company so we all know what is happening, some have started to move out, but I dont want to give up that fast. I like my job and I deserve to get more. spoken to my manager and even the head of the dept but getting false promises.
Recently another local guy who joined 6 months back was given promotion ignoring me. and hes is so undeserving.. so the decision surprised everyone.
even one local friend of mine who said the same to me but again cannot say in open.

I wanted to get some views if they know this discrimination is common in their workplace. and what do do in such a case .. u cannot really fight alone.
someone told me that in Ireland the acceptance of outsiders is still less as compared to countries like US, UK , canada and australia . The immigration although happening for a long time in Ireland, but still its quite new as compared to other companies. (in terms of years and decades) and the 1st and 2nd generation of outsiders.

sorry wanted this to be a short post.
it might be a controversial topic for some. but just trying to put some thoughts here what I/we think.

Not a saving grace statement for this post- But Personally I have made some good frnds here and gel along very well with my frnds, but when it comes to professional life things are way way different.

No, if you feel you are not being treated fairly you could seek other employment or discuss it with the hr department. You're not going to get very far in any company by playing the race card either.

Nody

Move on; if it's a small organization and it's a regular pattern chances are you'll be fighting windmills trying to change something which they may not even recognize as a problem.

endacl

CosmicSmash wrote: »

No, if you feel you are not being treated fairly you could seek other employment or discuss it with the hr department. You're not going to get very far in any company by playing the race card either.

'Playing the race card' is a loaded statement. Does that mean in a case of discrimination the victim should just shut up and get on with things?

seamus

How often do you have any kind of performance reviews with your manager? You should be able to call a meeting with him on that topic and explain that you're eager to see yourself promoted and want to do more for the company. So he should be then able to explain what you need to do, or at the very least you will now be in his mind.

In my experience, discrimination does happen but it's usually unintentional. I don't think Irish workplaces are hostile to "outsiders", but culturally there is a lot less tolerance for people who have trouble with English. You rarely see people from other Anglophones - US, UK, OZ - having difficulty getting ahead in Irish workplaces, but people from other countries who struggle to communicate naturally through English will get overlooked for tasks and promotions. This often simply because the other person doesn't want the headache of dealing with it.

It doesn't necessarily have to be poor English - I've worked with a few Chinese guys who can read and write very effectively, even naturally, over email but are stuck with very strong accents when speaking. In a one-to-one meeting you might be OK, but in a busy meeting or - holy jaysus - in the pub, you will actively avoid engaging with them because you can't make out a thing.

Do you have a strong accent? Do you find that co-workers will go out of their way to email you rather than speak to you? Do people seem to be constantly asking you to repeat yourself or misinterpreting what you're saying? Especially out socially does talking seem to be a huge struggle? If so, this could be your problem.

CosmicSmash

endacl wrote: »

'Playing the race card' is a loaded statement. Does that mean in a case of discrimination the victim should just shut up and get on with things?

I didn't say that they should shut up and get on with things, you did. The op said that a local guy got a promotion before him, and it was undeserved in his opinion. He then went on about the tolerance of the Irish people to the influx of foreign workers, and how they're treated in comparison to their colleagues. That's what I meant, there's bad jobs and companies everywhere. There can be people chasing promotions for decades, such is life in any country.

sac2020

Nody wrote: »

Move on; if it's a small organization and it's a regular pattern chances are you'll be fighting windmills trying to change something which they may not even recognize as a problem.

I love my job really but cannot grow. eventually i think I will have to go

Dodge

sac2020 wrote: »

Am in a company for almost 2 years..doing really good.

How quickly are people promoted? 2 years isn't that long and you say yourself it's a small company

Nody

Dodge wrote: »

How quickly are people promoted? 2 years isn't that long and you say yourself it's a small company

OPs post stated a new starter was promoted with in 6 months of joining.

Dodge

That could be a one off that can happen in all small companies though (family ties etc)

Mrs OBumble

OP, I'm foreign but a native English speaker.

Your post does not surprise me at all. Yes, it's discrimination.

You have two choices: take a discrimination case to the Workplace Relations Commission. Details here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/enforcement_and_redress/equality_tribunal.html This will be stressful and pretty much ruin your chances of getting a good reference from the company (yes, even if you win).

Or look for a job in a multi-national or large UK company with a presence here. They are far more likely to have active anti-discrimination measures in place.

Malcolm600f

Just wondering if such a small company how can there be so many promotions available..So your in a company 2 yrs and you want a manager's job , and your trying to say someone came in and 6 months later they got a managerial position , i dont think for one second people get into management that quick unless they are very dam good at their job or have family or other ties to the company , you said this person in work for 6 months who got promoted was as you said undeserving ..Well someone must have seen his as deserving the promotion or maybe what you view as promotion is a bit mixed up , and you are branding people in work as deserving and undeserving maybe management is looking at this the same and maybe classed you as undeserving or maybe not suited to the promotion that was available.. There is alot of factors that can be in play but pulling the discrimination card is just a load of bollix.

CosmicSmash

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Just wondering if such a small company how can there be so many promotions available..So your in a company 2 yrs and you want a manager's job , and your trying to say someone came in and 6 months later they got a managerial position , i dont think for one second people get into management that quick unless they are very dam good at their job or have family or other ties to the company , you said this person in work for 6 months who got promoted was as you said undeserving ..Well someone must have seen his as deserving the promotion or maybe what you view as promotion is a bit mixed up , and you are branding people in work as deserving and undeserving maybe management is looking at this the same and maybe classed you as undeserving or maybe not suited to the promotion that was available.. There is alot of factors that can be in play but pulling the discrimination card is just a load of bollix.

Be careful what you say, you'll be branded a racist. I was trying to explain this, the op may be out sick, late, not completing tasks on time or to a high enough level. There could many other reasons why they weren't promoted, they may just not be the right person for the job. Just because they carried out managerial tasks in one country doesn't mean they're fit to do it in another.

Malcolm600f

ooooppppssss

Tigger

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Or look for a job in a multi-national or large UK company with a presence here. They are far more likely to have active anti-discrimination measures in place.

so we are less anti-discriminatory than UK employers
nice to know you have surveyed all irish and uk businesses

Mrs OBumble

Tigger wrote: »

so we are less anti-discriminatory than UK employers
nice to know you have surveyed all irish and uk businesses

Not all of them, just the large ones :-)

It ain't rocket science to look around Debenhams / M&S vs similar Irish companies, and compare the proportion of staff who are visibly of African origin.

Malcolm600f

Why does everything have to be deemed as discrimination..
Cant someone not have right to be with the view to employ Irish people before employing any other nationally .That is not racist or discrimination its about looking after our fellow native people first ..The whole racist and discrimination think has gone OTT in the country to be completely honest ..

Rachiee

It could very well be discrimination but the problem is how do you prove it, there's a definite pattern to who is being promoted, but it would be very easy for them to make excuses as to how and why they make their decicions.
If as you say you've had management experience in your previous role the longer you are with this company being passed over the bigger the gap will look on your cv it may be time to start looking elsewhere.

Nody

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Why does everything have to be deemed as discrimination..
Cant someone not have right to be with the view to employ Irish people before employing any other nationally .That is not racist or discrimination its about looking after our fellow native people first ..The whole racist and discrimination think has gone OTT in the country to be completely honest ..

That is actually the very definition of discrimination...

jmayo

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Why does everything have to be deemed as discrimination..

What about when it actually is discrimination ?

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Cant someone not have right to be with the view to employ Irish people before employing any other nationally .

The thing is they do employ non Irish, they just don't appear to ever promote them.
And as for the shyte about having done managerial work in other countries doesn't mean you are capable of doing it in Ireland.
Irish managers from my experience wouldn't exactly be the best in the world.

Unless of course as another poster highlighted one must be capable of talking in the pub, no doubt after sinking 10 pints and lauding the local GAA team or more likely a Premiership team.

Malcolm600f wrote: »

That is not racist or discrimination its about looking after our fellow native people first ..The whole racist and discrimination think has gone OTT in the country to be completely honest ..

Yeah local jobs for local people. :rolleyes:
Must tell all the multinationals and all the FDI that keeps this country afloat about that.

If only the locals were often as hard working, capable and not forgetful of their relatives experiences of discrimination when they emigrated.

OP fix up your CV and start looking for work elsewhere.
Your company appears to be one of those that promotes based on who you know rather than what you know.

You will actually probably find some of the native Irish, who don't play the ass licking game so well, have realised this as well and left.

Do not start threatening about discrimination because you will then be labelled a troublemaker in the eyes of future employers.
Anyway even if you were to win they will find other ways of screwing you over.

Best of luck.

Malcolm600f

Nody wrote: »

That is actually the very definition of discrimination...

Well then would it not be discrimination against the employer not allowing him to have the right of his own choice..

c montgomery

Maybe the OP has all the qualifications but lacks the personal skills to be a manager. There are loads of reasons why you are being denied promotion, race is low down on that list I'd say.

seannash

It's probably your personality then. Sometimes if people don't enjoy working with you or deem you incapable of handling the people on the team you won't get ahead.
I see it alot.its a fact of life. Being efficient and good at your job does not mean you would make a good manager.
Are you very detail orientated and do you over explain things. Do you constantly not pick or express your opinion when things aren't (in your opinion) right?

c montgomery

I work with a guy who is incredible at coding, he is by far the best guy in his department and much better at his job than any of the people who have been promoted from his group over the past few years.
Could he be a manager? No way, I wouldn't put him in charge of the printer toner.
His skills are at code, his supervisors skills is also code (to a much lower level) but also empathy, social skills, motivational etc.....

Sometimes it's the person who does not suit the job and it would not be personal at all

AtticusFinch86

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Well then would it not be discrimination against the employer not allowing him to have the right of his own choice..

Business decisions should be based on the employees business skills, not their nationality, creed or skin colour. The whole "look after the natives first" perspective is one of the most backward ideas doing the rounds. If every country had that attitude, Ireland would still be in the 16th century. We rely on foreigners to come here and create employment, the very least we can do is treat them equally.

blindsider

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Why does everything have to be deemed as discrimination..
Cant someone not have right to be with the view to employ Irish people before employing any other nationally .That is not racist or discrimination its about looking after our fellow native people first ..The whole racist and discrimination think has gone OTT in the country to be completely honest ..

WTF? Did you think before you typed? That is appallingly racist!

If you went to another country (as Irish people have been doing for generations) and they adopted this attitude, how would you feel?

(BTW - I'm not attacking the poster here; it is plain that the post is discriminatory.)


Re the bit in bold - it's not ALL about discrimination - there are 9 - soon to be 10- grounds for discrimination. May I politely suggest that you familiarise yourslef with them, especially if you manage or hire staff.

http://www.livinginireland.ie/en/welfare/discrimination_racism/

is a start.

jmayo

A Lot of posters are drawing a conclusion that maybe the OP is not suitable.
It maybe their personality, they may be picky, they may be too detailed oriented, etc, etc.
Some even hinted they may think he has a chip on his should about being deserving and others are not.

That of course may be true, but has anybody bothered noticing some of the rest of the post.

None of the "foreigners", who make up approx. 25% of workforce, are ever brought into meetings, yet Irish guys just in the door are.

And it isn't just the OP who has noticed this, so have others and some have already left.

That to me rings some alarm bells.

I have seen enough Irish organisations where cliques are the order of the day.
Sometimes the cliques are the owners and their buddies, sometimes it is centered around a couple of people.
In one company I was contracting there was a major clique based around the golf society.

Anyway it can lead to an "us and them" toxic bitchy environment.
You are either in or you are out.
if you are in the "connected crowd" you could be on a fast path to perks and promotions.
If you are outside then you are pi**ing against the wind.

As I said I think the OP is better off moving to new pastures.

Tigger

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Not all of them, just the large ones :-)

It ain't rocket science to look around Debenhams / M&S vs similar Irish companies, and compare the proportion of staff who are visibly of African origin.

what irish company do you think is similar to m&s?
what % are "visibly of African origin" work in the m&s that you refer to.
what % of people in Ireland are "visibly of African origin "

and that term annoys me are we not all from Africa originally do you mean Black people? and if you mean black people do you mean Irish Black people or immigrants?

Tigger

jmayo wrote: »

A Lot of posters are drawing a conclusion that maybe the OP is not suitable.
It maybe their personality, they may be picky, they may be too detailed oriented, etc, etc.
Some even hinted they may think he has a chip on his should about being deserving and others are not.

That of course may be true, but has anybody bothered noticing some of the rest of the post.

None of the "foreigners", who make up approx. 25% of workforce, are ever brought into meetings, yet Irish guys just in the door are.

And it isn't just the OP who has noticed this, so have others and some have already left.

That to me rings some alarm bells.

I have seen enough Irish organisations where cliques are the order of the day.
Sometimes the cliques are the owners and their buddies, sometimes it is centered around a couple of people.
In one company I was contracting there was a major clique based around the golf society.

Anyway it can lead to an "us and them" toxic bitchy environment.
You are either in or you are out.
if you are in the "connected crowd" you could be on a fast path to perks and promotions.
If you are outside then you are pi**ing against the wind.

As I said I think the OP is better off moving to new pastures.

if a quater of people are non national then isn't that proof that there is no discrimination in hiring ?

Tigger

blindsider wrote: »

Re the bit in bold - it's not ALL about discrimination - there are 9 - soon to be 10- grounds for discrimination. May I politely suggest that you familiarise yourslef with them, especially if you manage or hire staff.

http://www.livinginireland.ie/en/welfare/discrimination_racism/

is a start.

whats the 10th one gonna be?

Tigger

jmayo wrote: »

Irish managers from my experience wouldn't exactly be the best in the world.

If only the locals were often as hard working, capable and not forgetful of their relatives experiences of discrimination when they emigrated.

why is it ok to put down irish managers and locals
i've heard this crap before about Polish people being more hardworking or better tradespeople its bull there are good Irish tradespeople and bad same as with Polish
there are lazy Irish staff and its the same with all people, probably same with non irish managers , i've never worked under a non national manager but i've worked under good and bad Irish managers