Is is not discrimination ?

sac2020

dont like writing long stories..

my simple problem..
Am in a company for almost 2 years..doing really good.
havnt got any hikes pr promotion.

I see in other teams that most of the local guys when an opportunity came they were given a promotion or more importance. But for me even though i know the system very well and have my name in the company, but somhow there's seem to be a reluctance in promoting me.
And it is not just me whos impacted, there are atleast 25% employees from outside EU(mix of indians , chinese , SA), but none of them is given a managerial position.
P.S - I have already played managerial position for last 4-5 in my previous org back in India, but here though I was initially told I will be given such a role, but that hasnt happened till date.

Also noted that in all the imp meetings the management team seems to avoid taking us in the meeting. A new joiner local guy can join the meeting for xyz reason, but we are avoided.

Its not a very big company so we all know what is happening, some have started to move out, but I dont want to give up that fast. I like my job and I deserve to get more. spoken to my manager and even the head of the dept but getting false promises.
Recently another local guy who joined 6 months back was given promotion ignoring me. and hes is so undeserving.. so the decision surprised everyone.
even one local friend of mine who said the same to me but again cannot say in open.

I wanted to get some views if they know this discrimination is common in their workplace. and what do do in such a case .. u cannot really fight alone.
someone told me that in Ireland the acceptance of outsiders is still less as compared to countries like US, UK , canada and australia . The immigration although happening for a long time in Ireland, but still its quite new as compared to other companies. (in terms of years and decades) and the 1st and 2nd generation of outsiders.

sorry wanted this to be a short post.
it might be a controversial topic for some. but just trying to put some thoughts here what I/we think.

Not a saving grace statement for this post- But Personally I have made some good frnds here and gel along very well with my frnds, but when it comes to professional life things are way way different.

CosmicSmash

sac2020 wrote: »

dont like writing long stories..

my simple problem..
Am in a company for almost 2 years..doing really good.
havnt got any hikes pr promotion.

I see in other teams that most of the local guys when an opportunity came they were given a promotion or more importance. But for me even though i know the system very well and have my name in the company, but somhow there's seem to be a reluctance in promoting me.
And it is not just me whos impacted, there are atleast 25% employees from outside EU(mix of indians , chinese , SA), but none of them is given a managerial position.
P.S - I have already played managerial position for last 4-5 in my previous org back in India, but here though I was initially told I will be given such a role, but that hasnt happened till date.

Also noted that in all the imp meetings the management team seems to avoid taking us in the meeting. A new joiner local guy can join the meeting for xyz reason, but we are avoided.

Its not a very big company so we all know what is happening, some have started to move out, but I dont want to give up that fast. I like my job and I deserve to get more. spoken to my manager and even the head of the dept but getting false promises.
Recently another local guy who joined 6 months back was given promotion ignoring me. and hes is so undeserving.. so the decision surprised everyone.
even one local friend of mine who said the same to me but again cannot say in open.

I wanted to get some views if they know this discrimination is common in their workplace. and what do do in such a case .. u cannot really fight alone.
someone told me that in Ireland the acceptance of outsiders is still less as compared to countries like US, UK , canada and australia . The immigration although happening for a long time in Ireland, but still its quite new as compared to other companies. (in terms of years and decades) and the 1st and 2nd generation of outsiders.

sorry wanted this to be a short post.
it might be a controversial topic for some. but just trying to put some thoughts here what I/we think.

Not a saving grace statement for this post- But Personally I have made some good frnds here and gel along very well with my frnds, but when it comes to professional life things are way way different.

No, if you feel you are not being treated fairly you could seek other employment or discuss it with the hr department. You're not going to get very far in any company by playing the race card either.

Nody

Move on; if it's a small organization and it's a regular pattern chances are you'll be fighting windmills trying to change something which they may not even recognize as a problem.

endacl

CosmicSmash wrote: »

No, if you feel you are not being treated fairly you could seek other employment or discuss it with the hr department. You're not going to get very far in any company by playing the race card either.

'Playing the race card' is a loaded statement. Does that mean in a case of discrimination the victim should just shut up and get on with things?

seamus

How often do you have any kind of performance reviews with your manager? You should be able to call a meeting with him on that topic and explain that you're eager to see yourself promoted and want to do more for the company. So he should be then able to explain what you need to do, or at the very least you will now be in his mind.

In my experience, discrimination does happen but it's usually unintentional. I don't think Irish workplaces are hostile to "outsiders", but culturally there is a lot less tolerance for people who have trouble with English. You rarely see people from other Anglophones - US, UK, OZ - having difficulty getting ahead in Irish workplaces, but people from other countries who struggle to communicate naturally through English will get overlooked for tasks and promotions. This often simply because the other person doesn't want the headache of dealing with it.

It doesn't necessarily have to be poor English - I've worked with a few Chinese guys who can read and write very effectively, even naturally, over email but are stuck with very strong accents when speaking. In a one-to-one meeting you might be OK, but in a busy meeting or - holy jaysus - in the pub, you will actively avoid engaging with them because you can't make out a thing.

Do you have a strong accent? Do you find that co-workers will go out of their way to email you rather than speak to you? Do people seem to be constantly asking you to repeat yourself or misinterpreting what you're saying? Especially out socially does talking seem to be a huge struggle? If so, this could be your problem.

CosmicSmash

endacl wrote: »

'Playing the race card' is a loaded statement. Does that mean in a case of discrimination the victim should just shut up and get on with things?

I didn't say that they should shut up and get on with things, you did. The op said that a local guy got a promotion before him, and it was undeserved in his opinion. He then went on about the tolerance of the Irish people to the influx of foreign workers, and how they're treated in comparison to their colleagues. That's what I meant, there's bad jobs and companies everywhere. There can be people chasing promotions for decades, such is life in any country.

sac2020

Nody wrote: »

Move on; if it's a small organization and it's a regular pattern chances are you'll be fighting windmills trying to change something which they may not even recognize as a problem.

I love my job really but cannot grow. eventually i think I will have to go

Dodge

sac2020 wrote: »

Am in a company for almost 2 years..doing really good.

How quickly are people promoted? 2 years isn't that long and you say yourself it's a small company

Nody

Dodge wrote: »

How quickly are people promoted? 2 years isn't that long and you say yourself it's a small company

OPs post stated a new starter was promoted with in 6 months of joining.

Dodge

That could be a one off that can happen in all small companies though (family ties etc)

Mrs OBumble

OP, I'm foreign but a native English speaker.

Your post does not surprise me at all. Yes, it's discrimination.

You have two choices: take a discrimination case to the Workplace Relations Commission. Details here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/enforcement_and_redress/equality_tribunal.html This will be stressful and pretty much ruin your chances of getting a good reference from the company (yes, even if you win).

Or look for a job in a multi-national or large UK company with a presence here. They are far more likely to have active anti-discrimination measures in place.

Malcolm600f

Just wondering if such a small company how can there be so many promotions available..So your in a company 2 yrs and you want a manager's job , and your trying to say someone came in and 6 months later they got a managerial position , i dont think for one second people get into management that quick unless they are very dam good at their job or have family or other ties to the company , you said this person in work for 6 months who got promoted was as you said undeserving ..Well someone must have seen his as deserving the promotion or maybe what you view as promotion is a bit mixed up , and you are branding people in work as deserving and undeserving maybe management is looking at this the same and maybe classed you as undeserving or maybe not suited to the promotion that was available.. There is alot of factors that can be in play but pulling the discrimination card is just a load of bollix.

CosmicSmash

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Just wondering if such a small company how can there be so many promotions available..So your in a company 2 yrs and you want a manager's job , and your trying to say someone came in and 6 months later they got a managerial position , i dont think for one second people get into management that quick unless they are very dam good at their job or have family or other ties to the company , you said this person in work for 6 months who got promoted was as you said undeserving ..Well someone must have seen his as deserving the promotion or maybe what you view as promotion is a bit mixed up , and you are branding people in work as deserving and undeserving maybe management is looking at this the same and maybe classed you as undeserving or maybe not suited to the promotion that was available.. There is alot of factors that can be in play but pulling the discrimination card is just a load of bollix.

Be careful what you say, you'll be branded a racist. I was trying to explain this, the op may be out sick, late, not completing tasks on time or to a high enough level. There could many other reasons why they weren't promoted, they may just not be the right person for the job. Just because they carried out managerial tasks in one country doesn't mean they're fit to do it in another.

Malcolm600f

ooooppppssss

Tigger

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Or look for a job in a multi-national or large UK company with a presence here. They are far more likely to have active anti-discrimination measures in place.

so we are less anti-discriminatory than UK employers
nice to know you have surveyed all irish and uk businesses

Mrs OBumble

Tigger wrote: »

so we are less anti-discriminatory than UK employers
nice to know you have surveyed all irish and uk businesses

Not all of them, just the large ones :-)

It ain't rocket science to look around Debenhams / M&S vs similar Irish companies, and compare the proportion of staff who are visibly of African origin.

Malcolm600f

Why does everything have to be deemed as discrimination..
Cant someone not have right to be with the view to employ Irish people before employing any other nationally .That is not racist or discrimination its about looking after our fellow native people first ..The whole racist and discrimination think has gone OTT in the country to be completely honest ..

Rachiee

It could very well be discrimination but the problem is how do you prove it, there's a definite pattern to who is being promoted, but it would be very easy for them to make excuses as to how and why they make their decicions.
If as you say you've had management experience in your previous role the longer you are with this company being passed over the bigger the gap will look on your cv it may be time to start looking elsewhere.

Nody

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Why does everything have to be deemed as discrimination..
Cant someone not have right to be with the view to employ Irish people before employing any other nationally .That is not racist or discrimination its about looking after our fellow native people first ..The whole racist and discrimination think has gone OTT in the country to be completely honest ..

That is actually the very definition of discrimination...

jmayo

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Why does everything have to be deemed as discrimination..

What about when it actually is discrimination ?

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Cant someone not have right to be with the view to employ Irish people before employing any other nationally .

The thing is they do employ non Irish, they just don't appear to ever promote them.
And as for the shyte about having done managerial work in other countries doesn't mean you are capable of doing it in Ireland.
Irish managers from my experience wouldn't exactly be the best in the world.

Unless of course as another poster highlighted one must be capable of talking in the pub, no doubt after sinking 10 pints and lauding the local GAA team or more likely a Premiership team.

Malcolm600f wrote: »

That is not racist or discrimination its about looking after our fellow native people first ..The whole racist and discrimination think has gone OTT in the country to be completely honest ..

Yeah local jobs for local people. :rolleyes:
Must tell all the multinationals and all the FDI that keeps this country afloat about that.

If only the locals were often as hard working, capable and not forgetful of their relatives experiences of discrimination when they emigrated.

OP fix up your CV and start looking for work elsewhere.
Your company appears to be one of those that promotes based on who you know rather than what you know.

You will actually probably find some of the native Irish, who don't play the ass licking game so well, have realised this as well and left.

Do not start threatening about discrimination because you will then be labelled a troublemaker in the eyes of future employers.
Anyway even if you were to win they will find other ways of screwing you over.

Best of luck.

Malcolm600f

Nody wrote: »

That is actually the very definition of discrimination...

Well then would it not be discrimination against the employer not allowing him to have the right of his own choice..

c montgomery

Maybe the OP has all the qualifications but lacks the personal skills to be a manager. There are loads of reasons why you are being denied promotion, race is low down on that list I'd say.

seannash

It's probably your personality then. Sometimes if people don't enjoy working with you or deem you incapable of handling the people on the team you won't get ahead.
I see it alot.its a fact of life. Being efficient and good at your job does not mean you would make a good manager.
Are you very detail orientated and do you over explain things. Do you constantly not pick or express your opinion when things aren't (in your opinion) right?

c montgomery

I work with a guy who is incredible at coding, he is by far the best guy in his department and much better at his job than any of the people who have been promoted from his group over the past few years.
Could he be a manager? No way, I wouldn't put him in charge of the printer toner.
His skills are at code, his supervisors skills is also code (to a much lower level) but also empathy, social skills, motivational etc.....

Sometimes it's the person who does not suit the job and it would not be personal at all

AtticusFinch86

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Well then would it not be discrimination against the employer not allowing him to have the right of his own choice..

Business decisions should be based on the employees business skills, not their nationality, creed or skin colour. The whole "look after the natives first" perspective is one of the most backward ideas doing the rounds. If every country had that attitude, Ireland would still be in the 16th century. We rely on foreigners to come here and create employment, the very least we can do is treat them equally.

blindsider

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Why does everything have to be deemed as discrimination..
Cant someone not have right to be with the view to employ Irish people before employing any other nationally .That is not racist or discrimination its about looking after our fellow native people first ..The whole racist and discrimination think has gone OTT in the country to be completely honest ..

WTF? Did you think before you typed? That is appallingly racist!

If you went to another country (as Irish people have been doing for generations) and they adopted this attitude, how would you feel?

(BTW - I'm not attacking the poster here; it is plain that the post is discriminatory.)


Re the bit in bold - it's not ALL about discrimination - there are 9 - soon to be 10- grounds for discrimination. May I politely suggest that you familiarise yourslef with them, especially if you manage or hire staff.

http://www.livinginireland.ie/en/welfare/discrimination_racism/

is a start.

jmayo

A Lot of posters are drawing a conclusion that maybe the OP is not suitable.
It maybe their personality, they may be picky, they may be too detailed oriented, etc, etc.
Some even hinted they may think he has a chip on his should about being deserving and others are not.

That of course may be true, but has anybody bothered noticing some of the rest of the post.

None of the "foreigners", who make up approx. 25% of workforce, are ever brought into meetings, yet Irish guys just in the door are.

And it isn't just the OP who has noticed this, so have others and some have already left.

That to me rings some alarm bells.

I have seen enough Irish organisations where cliques are the order of the day.
Sometimes the cliques are the owners and their buddies, sometimes it is centered around a couple of people.
In one company I was contracting there was a major clique based around the golf society.

Anyway it can lead to an "us and them" toxic bitchy environment.
You are either in or you are out.
if you are in the "connected crowd" you could be on a fast path to perks and promotions.
If you are outside then you are pi**ing against the wind.

As I said I think the OP is better off moving to new pastures.

Tigger

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Not all of them, just the large ones :-)

It ain't rocket science to look around Debenhams / M&S vs similar Irish companies, and compare the proportion of staff who are visibly of African origin.

what irish company do you think is similar to m&s?
what % are "visibly of African origin" work in the m&s that you refer to.
what % of people in Ireland are "visibly of African origin "

and that term annoys me are we not all from Africa originally do you mean Black people? and if you mean black people do you mean Irish Black people or immigrants?

Tigger

jmayo wrote: »

A Lot of posters are drawing a conclusion that maybe the OP is not suitable.
It maybe their personality, they may be picky, they may be too detailed oriented, etc, etc.
Some even hinted they may think he has a chip on his should about being deserving and others are not.

That of course may be true, but has anybody bothered noticing some of the rest of the post.

None of the "foreigners", who make up approx. 25% of workforce, are ever brought into meetings, yet Irish guys just in the door are.

And it isn't just the OP who has noticed this, so have others and some have already left.

That to me rings some alarm bells.

I have seen enough Irish organisations where cliques are the order of the day.
Sometimes the cliques are the owners and their buddies, sometimes it is centered around a couple of people.
In one company I was contracting there was a major clique based around the golf society.

Anyway it can lead to an "us and them" toxic bitchy environment.
You are either in or you are out.
if you are in the "connected crowd" you could be on a fast path to perks and promotions.
If you are outside then you are pi**ing against the wind.

As I said I think the OP is better off moving to new pastures.

if a quater of people are non national then isn't that proof that there is no discrimination in hiring ?

Tigger

blindsider wrote: »

Re the bit in bold - it's not ALL about discrimination - there are 9 - soon to be 10- grounds for discrimination. May I politely suggest that you familiarise yourslef with them, especially if you manage or hire staff.

http://www.livinginireland.ie/en/welfare/discrimination_racism/

is a start.

whats the 10th one gonna be?

Tigger

jmayo wrote: »

Irish managers from my experience wouldn't exactly be the best in the world.

If only the locals were often as hard working, capable and not forgetful of their relatives experiences of discrimination when they emigrated.

why is it ok to put down irish managers and locals
i've heard this crap before about Polish people being more hardworking or better tradespeople its bull there are good Irish tradespeople and bad same as with Polish
there are lazy Irish staff and its the same with all people, probably same with non irish managers , i've never worked under a non national manager but i've worked under good and bad Irish managers

Mrs OBumble

Tigger wrote: »

what irish company do you think is similar to m&s?
what % are "visibly of African origin" work in the m&s that you refer to.
what % of people in Ireland are "visibly of African origin "

and that term annoys me are we not all from Africa originally do you mean Black people? and if you mean black people do you mean Irish Black people or immigrants?

Do you really think I'm so dumb that I'd name a similar company here? Can you even imagine the trouble that could get boards.ie into, and thus the size of the ban it would get me?

I mean exactly what I said. Ok, so some people who look like they're of African origin might have been born in places other than the African continent, including Ireland. There might even be the occasional Melanesian floating around among them. And there will certainly be some white people who wouldn't be counted even though they were born in Africa. But still the overall visual trend is pretty easy to see.

Tigger

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Do you really think I'm so dumb that I'd name a similar company here? Can you even imagine the trouble that could get boards.ie into, and thus the size of the ban it would get me?

I mean exactly what I said. Ok, so some people who look like they're of African origin might have been born in places other than the African continent, including Ireland. There might even be the occasional Melanesian floating around among them. And there will certainly be some white people who wouldn't be counted even though they were born in Africa. But still the overall visual trend is pretty easy to see.

i don';t think there is a store similar to m&s i'm not trying to get you in trouble

but answer this
what % are "visibly of African origin" work in the m&s that you refer to.
what % of people in Ireland are "visibly of African origin "

BreadnBuddha

Two words, people:

Non EU

Here's two more:

Work Permit

Unless you can replace those last two with Permanent Residency, forget about a role change or promotion unless you are incredibly well suited for the position.

Seen it time and again. Get permanent residency, you're good to move up. Until then, understand the limitations affecting you and don't anyone be so quick to entertain the notion that it's some kind of racial discrimination at play.

Wake up lads.

Tigger

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Two words, people:

Non EU

Here's two more:

Work Permit

Unless you can replace those last two with Permanent Residency, forget about a role change or promotion unless you are incredibly well suited for the position.

Seen it time and again. Get permanent residency, you're good to move up. Until then, understand the limitations affecting you and don't anyone be so quick to entertain the notion that it's some kind of racial discrimination at play.

Wake up lads.

i was reading up on that to reply
if you are non permanent then there is no point in putting you in a critical position was a gut feeling
one that won't be voiced but a valid difference

blindsider

@Tigger (Query on previous page)

Gender Identity

https://thepeninsulairelandblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/01/grounds-for-discrimination-to-increase-to-10/


This provides more info.....

http://www.teni.ie/attachments/cd9c068f-2b85-4654-8ee9-34d45b4ed609.PDF

Malcolm600f

blindsider wrote: »

WTF? Did you think before you typed? That is appallingly racist!

How the hell can you state what i said was racist..
I never said anything against any race or discriminated against any race.
I said can a person not be of the view to employ Irish people first ...........If i have MY own Business I set up with MY money then i think I should be fit to employ who ever the hell I want and not have to be branded as racist or any other tag... I have had Eastern European people work for me as well as African as well as Irish so clearly not racist in any means despite what you think..

Tigger

blindsider wrote: »

@Tigger (Query on previous page)

Gender Identity

https://thepeninsulairelandblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/01/grounds-for-discrimination-to-increase-to-10/


This provides more info.....

http://www.teni.ie/attachments/cd9c068f-2b85-4654-8ee9-34d45b4ed609.PDF

Thanks
Makes sense

blindsider

Malcolm600f wrote: »

How the hell can you state what i said was racist..
I never said anything against any race or discriminated against any race.
I said can a person not be of the view to employ Irish people first ...........If i have MY own Business I set up with MY money then i think I should be fit to employ who ever the hell I want and not have to be branded as racist or any other tag... I have had Eastern European people work for me as well as African as well as Irish so clearly not racist in any means despite what you think..

If you treat people differently, based on their race, then what are you?


To answer the q above in bold: No. You cannot.


The law of the land says that you must not do this in the work-place.


Your business, and your money are still subject to the law of the land. It is not optional.

I hope this is clear for you.

Full Marx

Are you a member of a trade union?

orl

Very interesting post, OP. I think you have described 'unconscious bias' very well. As other posters have alluded it seems to be a case of the perception of non-anglophone employees ' not fitting in', 'cultural differences' etc. Fine to do the grunt work but not management material. That is discriminiation - the definition of discrimination is being treated less favourably because of nationality/race in this context

I would have to know you personally or your bosses to advise you the approach to take. I definitely think it is discrimination. In the case attached employees went door to door getting people to switch to airtricity. Most of the cold-call salespeople were not Irish but the managers were overwhelmingly Irish. The big boss recommended people for promotion when a vacancy came up and, surprise, surprise, every single one was Caucasian:
https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Cases/2011/February/DEC-E2011-025-Full-Case-Report.html

You said your employer was a small company. Does it have a HR person? Do you respect her (nearly always women in HR). Does she get things done? Is she sufficiently powerful in the company? If so, you might ask for a meeting, give her the attached case and say you believe the same is going on in your company. Say that you do not wish to pursue the legal option but explain what you see is happening.

If you feel the HR person only does the higher-ups bidding, approach a senior manager that you respect instead.

If you feel that this wouldn't be taken seriously, look for opportunities elsewhere.

witchgirl26

Malcolm600f wrote: »

How the hell can you state what i said was racist..
I never said anything against any race or discriminated against any race.
I said can a person not be of the view to employ Irish people first ...........If i have MY own Business I set up with MY money then i think I should be fit to employ who ever the hell I want and not have to be branded as racist or any other tag... I have had Eastern European people work for me as well as African as well as Irish so clearly not racist in any means despite what you think..

blindsider wrote: »

If you treat people differently, based on their race, then what are you?


To answer the q above in bold: No. You cannot.


The law of the land says that you must not do this in the work-place.


Your business, and your money are still subject to the law of the land. It is not optional.

I hope this is clear for you.

Just wondering on this. In Canada they have a rule that says you can only hire a foreign worker if you can't find an Canadian who can fulfill the role. I don't think that's racist but more making sure that natives have jobs before accounting for economic migrants. I think Australia have something similar in some areas of work too (nurses I think based on conversations with friends).

It's an interesting one but I do think that a country has a responsibility for it's own citizens first rather than economic migrants.

Dodge

Work permits apply in all countries, including Ireland. Exceptions are made for EU citizens but a company here can only apply to employ an Indian citizen if they can prove they can't find an EU citizen to take that job. And even then it only applies to certain jobs

You can see the list of jobs that work permits are not granted for here
https://www.djei.ie/en/What-We-Do/Jobs-Workplace-and-Skills/Employment-Permits/Employment-Permit-Eligibility/Ineligible-Categories-of-Employment/

Mrs OBumble

witchgirl26 wrote: »

It's an interesting one but I do think that a country has a responsibility for it's own citizens first rather than economic migrants.

Except if that country joins a wider economic network that looks after all member countries, and offers free labour movement within the area.

In that case, countries have a responsibility citizens of all member-states before migrants (economic and otherwise) from non-member states.

sac2020

jmayo wrote: »

A Lot of posters are drawing a conclusion that maybe the OP is not suitable.
It maybe their personality, they may be picky, they may be too detailed oriented, etc, etc.
Some even hinted they may think he has a chip on his should about being deserving and others are not.

That of course may be true, but has anybody bothered noticing some of the rest of the post.

None of the "foreigners", who make up approx. 25% of workforce, are ever brought into meetings, yet Irish guys just in the door are.

And it isn't just the OP who has noticed this, so have others and some have already left.

That to me rings some alarm bells.

I have seen enough Irish organisations where cliques are the order of the day.
Sometimes the cliques are the owners and their buddies, sometimes it is centered around a couple of people.
In one company I was contracting there was a major clique based around the golf society.

Anyway it can lead to an "us and them" toxic bitchy environment.
You are either in or you are out.
if you are in the "connected crowd" you could be on a fast path to perks and promotions.
If you are outside then you are pi**ing against the wind.

As I said I think the OP is better off moving to new pastures.

Had a busy weekend and just getting a chance to read the posts( still going thru them)
Just quoting this one while I go thru the other later .

I know there are some questions about my suitability/capability as a manager.
I can tell you that that I have managed small/big teams in my previous companie(s)- so that is atleast 2 companies for a tenure of more than 5 yrs.
about English/Communicating in English - I am in a role where I have to interact with our customers at times. Give presentations.. and maintain business relation with them which would be 20% of my time. with a very neutral accent & acknowledged by a number of sr members in the company.
Not to point out again- but a number of guys in my org have irish accent( i was told from Tipprary and cork side etc) which is hard to understand even by the local dublin guys.

Also to give more background I have worked in US, Canada for a year each and Uk for 6 months. I always felt like home with the treatment given by the guys there in US and Canada. UK was just Ok... but living in ireland for 4 yrs now never got that feeling of 'acceptance' in office.

Joined this org (one level below) because it was giving me the exp and exposure that I wanted. within first 6 months I was told my performance was good and we should give you a better role...which I am doing for the last 1 yr or so.. but with limitations like taking cost decisions , attending imp meetings etc.. where we are not taken to.. and hence the frustration.

Think am mature enough to compare but the new guy has very limited knowledge on the area we are working on.almost same exp than mine.. but was promoted .. maybe the management thinks he'll stay there long term but again if u dont do justice to the existing employee then they are bound to leave.

Coming back to the topic of discrimination , I started this thread as this ws not just my thinking but almost all of my outsider friends .. they do feel the same in their team etc. and its not limited in this company but where they have worked previously.
or from friends who work in other companies.

the situation might be a bit better with big corporates but the it really depends on the percentage of outsiders and how long the company is recruiting them .. or have an onshore offshore model.

saying it for those guys as well. the feeling is that the acceptance is still low as compared to other places

sac2020

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Why does everything have to be deemed as discrimination..
Cant someone not have right to be with the view to employ Irish people before employing any other nationally .That is not racist or discrimination its about looking after our fellow native people first ..The whole racist and discrimination think has gone OTT in the country to be completely honest ..

ok, for my knowledge . A lot of people from Ireland have moved from here to US, Canada and australia. can we start this question to those guys who have moved in these countries and expect to be treated fairly.

sac2020

Rachiee wrote: »

It could very well be discrimination but the problem is how do you prove it, there's a definite pattern to who is being promoted, but it would be very easy for them to make excuses as to how and why they make their decicions.
If as you say you've had management experience in your previous role the longer you are with this company being passed over the bigger the gap will look on your cv it may be time to start looking elsewhere.

Exactly,
I have been given multiple reasons from not the right time, need to spend more time in my current role and take additional responsibilities and prove ur metal. which I am doing for a year. etc etc.

sac2020

seamus wrote: »

How often do you have any kind of performance reviews with your manager? You should be able to call a meeting with him on that topic and explain that you're eager to see yourself promoted and want to do more for the company. So he should be then able to explain what you need to do, or at the very least you will now be in his mind.

In my experience, discrimination does happen but it's usually unintentional. I don't think Irish workplaces are hostile to "outsiders", but culturally there is a lot less tolerance for people who have trouble with English. You rarely see people from other Anglophones - US, UK, OZ - having difficulty getting ahead in Irish workplaces, but people from other countries who struggle to communicate naturally through English will get overlooked for tasks and promotions. This often simply because the other person doesn't want the headache of dealing with it.

It doesn't necessarily have to be poor English - I've worked with a few Chinese guys who can read and write very effectively, even naturally, over email but are stuck with very strong accents when speaking. In a one-to-one meeting you might be OK, but in a busy meeting or - holy jaysus - in the pub, you will actively avoid engaging with them because you can't make out a thing.

Do you have a strong accent? Do you find that co-workers will go out of their way to email you rather than speak to you? Do people seem to be constantly asking you to repeat yourself or misinterpreting what you're saying? Especially out socially does talking seem to be a huge struggle? If so, this could be your problem.

Think i replied to all this in my latest post.
As I said, i have a neutral accent. I have had long conversations with my colleagues at pub if that helps to judge my communication skills.
I agree all the outsiders (Asians, african origin ) etc dont mix up with the local guys and dont to pubs that frequently. but this is all outside office work.

TBH i am surprised on why people here are surprised - that Indians can talk in english and that too very fluently. ( I am talking about my office guys here seamus).
It is like a first language to us since birth in many big cities. and most of the Indian IT guys have a very good global experience. so its actually the other way around where the irish guys ( in my small company) dont have such global experience.
This was the topic discuss in pub the last time i went out with the guys..

Mrs OBumble

sac2020, one thing to remember that that until recently Ireland was a lot more sheltered from immigrants than most Western countries.

I've heard stories about some "Pakistani" people being here in the 1930s. (I have no idea if they really were from Pakistan, or if it was just a generic word for foreign - suspect the latter.) But they were very rare. And apart from that, a non-white person, or even a white one who wasn't an American tourist, was pretty rare in these parts.

Some of your Irish colleagues will have had a great deal less international exposure than you - and are likely to have both unconscious and conscious bias (as seen earlier in the thread).

sac2020

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

sac2020, one thing to remember that that until recently Ireland was a lot more sheltered from immigrants than most Western countries.

I've heard stories about some "Pakistani" people being here in the 1930s. (I have no idea if they really were from Pakistan, or if it was just a generic word for foreign - suspect the latter.) But they were very rare. And apart from that, a non-white person, or even a white one who wasn't an American tourist, was pretty rare in these parts.

Some of your Irish colleagues will have had a great deal less international exposure than you - and are likely to have both unconscious and conscious bias (as seen earlier in the thread).

Well yes, i may be conscious or unconscious bias, thats the reason I said the acceptance is not there at the moment.

in the 30's there was no Pakistan so I guess they would be Indians. But yeah you wont believe there are many Indian restaurants in Ireland which are actually owned by pakistanis or Bangladeshi's.. both the countries born from India.

There are a lot more Asians in the last 10 yrs so as I was just chatting with my friend, it would take a while for the people here to accept the immigrants...a generation ( worst case) where all the kids study together , gel togther..

BizzyC

One question I would have, what are your personal relationships like with the guys around you?

Are you friendly with the people you work with, or do you purely engage with them on a project/task based communication.

A lot of people seem to forget that in order to move up to management you have to display the ability to manage people on a personal level. It could simply be a case that you demonstrate good working knowledge and ability, but little in terms of leadership skills.