Any App Developers here get a mortgage?

Neo-Dragon

EDIT:
So after posting this, first thing I did was call an accountant.
I'm registering for self employed, sorting out my taxes, and putting my mortgage on hold until this is all sorted out.

Thanks for the input.

Can you not request a P60 from Apple?
They must have a detailed breakdown of what tax was paid from your gross earnings anyway so they should be able to knock a P60 together in minutes.

I am confused about your situation - if you are an employee of Apple you would have payslips and a P60.
If you are not surely you have to make a tax return of some sort?
Have you ever spoken to an accountant or solicitor about this?

28064212

Neo-Dragon wrote: »

When signing up to become an Apple developer, it says in the contract that they handled the tax for several countries (Ireland was listed)

Sales tax/VAT? Or income tax? If it's the latter, Apple are your employer and should be able to issue you with a P60.

If it's the former, and you haven't declared your income to revenue, you might well be up shit creek without a paddle. It's your responsibility to declare your income and make sure the tax on it is paid

seamus

^^

Apple don't pay your income tax for you. That would be extraordinarily weird for a company to pay income tax on behalf of someone unless they're an employee. They look after sales tax (VAT) internationally, take their cut and then send money to you. This is your gross income.

As an app developer, you are self-employed for tax purposes. To get a mortgage, banks will want to see 3 years of audited accounts, which means you have 3 years of back income tax to catch up on, as well as 2015.

If you were employed by Apple, they would be legally obliged to provide you with payslips monthly. If they currently send you monthly account statements, then you're self employed.

megabantz

Something isn't right here. Either you explained your position wrong or you have been working from home making apps and earning a decent wage (you mentioned the bank said your well able to afford the mortgage) and not declaring your income to revenue. As the poster above says, you may be in a spot of bother

wardides

Big tax bill coming somebody's way.

awec

You are definitely self employed and you definitely should have filled in tax returns since 2012.

Get yourself an accountant to help you sort this.

srsly78

If you don't bother paying tax then you should be loaded and not need a mortgage! Unfortunately now you are gonna get hit by penalties and interest so you might need a loan just to pay back the Revenue

Once you sort your affairs out (start by hiring an accountant) - you will then be able to present proper details on your earnings to the bank. Also a tax clearance certificate might help.

Mrs OBumble

Man ... you need an accountant, and a good one, FAST.

Seriously, you could be in a large spot of trouble. But the right professional advice should help get you sorted.

Michael D Not Higgins

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Man ... you need an accountant, and a good one, FAST.

Seriously, you could be in a large spot of trouble. But the right professional advice should help get you sorted.

Sorted with penalty interest, but at least it'll be done before they end up auditing him.

OP, worth checking this out. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/income_tax/taxation_of_self_employed_people.html

Tell me how

Talk to an accountant. Now. Or sooner.

Stheno

Also OP you should talk to an accountant in relation to any VAT liability you may have.

You're going to be looking at a hefty bill for PAYE/PRSI and USC over the past four years if you've not paid any in that time.

awec

Stheno wrote: »

Also OP you should talk to an accountant in relation to any VAT liability you may have.

You're going to be looking at a hefty bill for PAYE/PRSI and USC over the past four years if you've not paid any in that time.

Apple will have paid the VAT.

Probably looking at a bill of 40-50% of your income over the past number of years.

Michael D Not Higgins

awec wrote: »

Probably looking at a bill of 40-50% of your income over the past number of years.

Which will make that mortgage all the more unaffordable...

Stheno

awec wrote: »

Apple will have paid the VAT.

Probably looking at a bill of 40-50% of your income over the past number of years.

Just ot of curiousity do they just deduct the VAT from the gross invoices the OP sends in and submit that to Revenue, while paying OP the net amount after the VAT is deducted?

Trying to figure out how that works, as if you supply services as a self employed person for over 37.5k you are supposed to be VAT registered

awec

Stheno wrote: »

Just ot of curiousity do they just deduct the VAT from the gross invoices the OP sends in and submit that to Revenue, while paying OP the net amount after the VAT is deducted?

Trying to figure out how that works, as if you supply services as a self employed person for over 37.5k you are supposed to be VAT registered

They handle everything afaik.

They charge the customer, they deduct VAT, they deduct their cut and then they deposit the rest in a bank account that you supply them with a breakdown of how much you are getting.

Marcusm

Stheno wrote: »

Just ot of curiousity do they just deduct the VAT from the gross invoices the OP sends in and submit that to Revenue, while paying OP the net amount after the VAT is deducted?

Trying to figure out how that works, as if you supply services as a self employed person for over 37.5k you are supposed to be VAT registered

All true but the place of supply for "consultancy" services which this will almost certainly be is where the recipient is based. Depending on the Apple contract, the recipient may either be Apple (I'll bet SARL in Lux) or the underlying customer. The OP is likely providing VATable services but they will likely be out with the scope of Irish VAT but with the ability to recover input tax. Despite this, I suspect he will still have significant income tax, PRSI and USC bills to sort out before a mortgage.

professore

You are in a world of trouble my friend

They might pay your VAT but won't pay your income taxes - they are your responsibility.

El_Dangeroso

OP you might need a mortgage just to pay your tax bill. Get yourself to an accountant yesterday.

Furasta

Neo-Dragon wrote: »

When signing up to become an Apple developer, it says in the contract that they handled the tax for several countries (Ireland was listed) so never worried about that stuff.

Apple handle sales taxes, what you get from them after those are deducted is an income. You still have to pay income taxes, since you are not an Apple employee you are self employed selling your goods through Apple.

Apple are not liable for your income taxes which you need to get onto a very good accountant asap.

hurikane

How could you be so naive? Apple handle the sales tax, unless you are directly employed by them they won't be paying your income tax. Get yourself an accountant and settle up for the last 3 years.

Stheno

hurikane wrote: »

How could you be so naive? Apple handle the sales tax, unless you are directly employed by them they won't be paying your income tax. Get yourself an accountant and settle up for the last 3 years.

Four 2012 through to 2015!
The potential interest and penalties are frightening.

mickdw

Stheno wrote: »

Four 2012 through to 2015!
The potential interest and penalties are frightening.

2012 taxes due November 13
2013 taxes due November 14
2014 taxes due November 15

2015 taxes due now but deadline November 2016

If you started work towards end of 2012, you might not have a liability for 2012.
Payments for 2013 and 2014 will need to be sorted now and you should have funds for 2015 also at this stage.

I find it strange that there is not a control on these type of payment similar to what construction people work by.
For example a main contractor cannot pay a self employed person without deducting tax unless cleared by revenue.
Surely these online payments are even harder to police and should have some more stringent tax controls.

Stheno

mickdw wrote: »

2012 taxes due November 13
2013 taxes due November 14
2014 taxes due November 15

2015 taxes due now but deadline November 2016

If you started work towards end of 2012, you might not have a liability for 2012.
Payments for 2013 and 2014 will need to be sorted now and you should have funds for 2015 also at this stage.

I find it strange that there is not a control on these type of payment similar to what construction people work by.
For example a main contractor cannot pay a self employed person without deducting tax unless cleared by revenue.
Surely these online payments are even harder to police and should have some more stringent tax controls.

Preliminary tax for 2015 was due by 31st October, OP has missed that deadline.

There are very few controls on payments to contractors outside the ones you state.

Full Marx

What a mess. But how could you be so oblivious?

Get on to a good accountant. You won't be getting a house for a while. Get it sorted quick. The bank guy knew what the craic was but didnt have the heart to tell you. They wil more than likely report you to the tax man too, so get on the ball and get it sorted.

L1011

My memory of the agreement is that it's quite clear its only VAT they handle. Did you have an Android version and/or advertising income as well?

chillin117

Lots of questions, Where's the OP gone ?

newacc2015

Full Marx wrote: »

What a mess. But how could you be so oblivious?

Get on to a good accountant. You won't be getting a house for a while. Get it sorted quick. The bank guy knew what the craic was but didnt have the heart to tell you. They wil more than likely report you to the tax man too, so get on the ball and get it sorted.

Even accountants make mistakes all the time. Look at a certain luxury supermarket/restaurant in Dublin 2 who owned €1.2 million in back taxes as their accountant was incompetent. They almost lost their business over it

I serious doubt the person in the bank realised it. They arent trained accountants. I also serious doubt he reported OP to Revenue. They only have to report cases of money laundering or where the source of funds is suspicious. Neither of which is the case with OP.

Stheno

chillin117 wrote: »

Lots of questions, Where's the OP gone ?

If the OP is indeed true, OP is probably sitting/rocking/crying in a corner in a darkened room, having realised that what they thought was net income was in fact gross, and that they now are facing a large bill to be paid to the Revenue.

Or they went to see an accountant

Neon_Lights

He develops iPhone apps, try a business loan of you're self employed for a "premises"

Mrs OBumble

mickdw wrote: »

I find it strange that there is not a control on these type of payment similar to what construction people work by.
For example a main contractor cannot pay a self employed person without deducting tax unless cleared by revenue.
Surely these online payments are even harder to police and should have some more stringent tax controls.

I have (small) amounts of income from AdSense, iTunes, Amazon, and a few others: it would be crazy for governments to try to get every one of these (all internationally based) to apply controls, given that every country would likely have a different approach. And a waste of resources, because all of them are intrinsically on-line payment, there's an extremely good audit trail of what I received via my bank accounts. And my bet is that most people who make money this way make relatively small amounts.

PayPal and the like makes things murkier - if revenue audit me, now do they know that I don't have a MoneyBookers (or whatever) account too. Even then, if they were really keen they could look at each of the affiliates and advertises on my my sites, and ask to see the evidence of income from the. I could try to hide something, but suspect it would be very difficult.

awec

The majority of apps that make serious money are developed by companies and so wouldn't be subject to income tax anyway.

Most self employed people wouldn't make their main salary from an app or apps (most actually make sod all), they would earn some cash to top up a salary from elsewhere. It would be impossible for Apple to tax these people accordingly, how would they know about tax credits etc given they are not employees? Much easier that they make it the responsibility of the individual to submit their income for taxation in whatever way is required in their jurisdiction.

P_Cash

op

your either self employed or an employee of apple,

I'm quite sure that even though your not in the area of finance/tax/payroll etc you were very well aware of the difference.

self employed file tax returns

employees are on PAYE,

from the way you phrased "didnt register as self employed etc". . im assuming your self employed, in which case you should be filing returns.

all I can say is talk to them asap, honesty is your way out of this.

jimmycrackcorm

awec wrote:

The majority of apps that make serious money are developed by companies and so wouldn't be subject to income tax anyway.

Companies that have employees writing the apps who pay income tax.

awec wrote:

Most self employed people wouldn't make their main salary from an app or apps (most actually make sod all), they would earn some cash to top up a salary from elsewhere. It would be impossible for Apple to tax these people accordingly, how would they know about tax credits etc given they are not employees? Much easier that they make it the responsibility of the individual to submit their income for taxation in whatever way is required in their jurisdiction.

There is no employment contract between Apple and the OP so Apple have no responsibility for his income tax.

But to answer the OPs question. He cannot get a mortgage because he basically appears to the bank the same as a drug dealer. Lots of income but no tax records.

SpaceSasqwatch

unbelievable that someone could be so naive....

quadrifoglio verde

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I have (small) amounts of income from AdSense, iTunes, Amazon, and a few others: it would be crazy for governments to try to get every one of these (all internationally based) to apply controls, given that every country would likely have a different approach. And a waste of resources, because all of them are intrinsically on-line payment, there's an extremely good audit trail of what I received via my bank accounts. And my bet is that most people who make money this way make relatively small amounts.

PayPal and the like makes things murkier - if revenue audit me, now do they know that I don't have a MoneyBookers (or whatever) account too. Even then, if they were really keen they could look at each of the affiliates and advertises on my my sites, and ask to see the evidence of income from the. I could try to hide something, but suspect it would be very difficult.

My dad for audited in 2008. It would have been quite common for companies in his industry to do small jobs for cash.
500 here, 500 there. The intensity of questions asked by revenue were frightening
The extent of investigations that revenue went to would put you off taking cash for a job again, the only thing he could see himself spending cash on without them copping on was fine dining and pints in the pub.

Pretzill

It does seem incredibly odd that the OP isn't aware they are liable to pay tax on their income. Yes you need an accountant and a paper trail of any allowable expenses used in the last three years. Your earnings may not be as much as you think - but you may be liable for penalties. You will be self assessed from now on in - and once you keep your books in order, the process isn't too complicated, however, at the moment an accountant would be needed -

Don't have a major fit. Revenue aren't the big nasty people we think they are and you are better sorting this out now then adding more years to it. When I started in business early on, I took Ill for the best part of a year and my partner had to handle all the paperwork except he didn't do the vat (bi monthly) once I had discovered this we contacted revenue and they did not incur penalties - however my eyes did water as I wrote 6 cheques to the collector-general!

So my advice, if indeed the case is you have been self employed for 4 years without paying income tax, put the mortgage on hold, get an accountant, and talk to revenue.

Stheno

Stheno wrote: »

Four 2012 through to 2015!
The potential interest and penalties are frightening.

Revenue don't necessarily charge interest and penalties it's at their discretion. If the op gets on top of this asap, gets a very good tax specialist accountant and comes forward with everything to revenue all done correctly they may well take it easy on him.

Stheno

Rhys Flabby Minion wrote: »

Revenue don't necessarily charge interest and penalties it's at their discretion. If the op gets on top of this asap, gets a very good tax specialist accountant and comes forward with everything to revenue all done correctly they may well take it easy on him.

Sorry should have said the potential interest and penalties!

Pretzill

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I have (small) amounts of income from AdSense, iTunes, Amazon, and a few others: it would be crazy for governments to try to get every one of these (all internationally based) to apply controls, given that every country would likely have a different approach. And a waste of resources, because all of them are intrinsically on-line payment, there's an extremely good audit trail of what I received via my bank accounts. And my bet is that most people who make money this way make relatively small amounts.

Yes but if you are self assessed it is up to you to declare all income from this country or abroad - and also any vat from other countries. The revenue don't go chasing it they expect people to declare - I suppose the grim reaper of an audit would probably root other income out -

Death and Taxes

Mourinho

I have visions of Revenue officials turning over every table and even checking the fridge freezer for hidden cash in the OP's gaff once they cop on to this

Tell me how

Mourinho wrote:

I have visions of Revenue officials turning over every table and even checking the fridge freezer for hidden cash in the OP's gaff once they cop on to this

I have visions of a revenue official on Boards and then going to the window to release the flying monkeys.

barneystinson

Rhys Flabby Minion wrote: »

Revenue don't necessarily charge interest and penalties it's at their discretion. If the op gets on top of this asap, gets a very good tax specialist accountant and comes forward with everything to revenue all done correctly they may well take it easy on him.

There absolutely will be interest and penalties in this case. Interest is statutory and there is very little discretion on that, and a minimum 10% surcharge on late filing will apply, if not also a 5% penalty.

spurious

Best option is to approach Revenue and tell them the whole story. They may or may not believe it, but it is better than them coming after you.

Stheno

spurious wrote: »

Best option is to approach Revenue and tell them the whole story. They may or may not believe it, but it is better than them coming after you.

Agreed. They are generally quite reasonable to deal with.

newacc2015

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I have (small) amounts of income from AdSense, iTunes, Amazon, and a few others: it would be crazy for governments to try to get every one of these (all internationally based) to apply controls, given that every country would likely have a different approach. And a waste of resources, because all of them are intrinsically on-line payment, there's an extremely good audit trail of what I received via my bank accounts. And my bet is that most people who make money this way make relatively small amounts.

PayPal and the like makes things murkier - if revenue audit me, now do they know that I don't have a MoneyBookers (or whatever) account too. Even then, if they were really keen they could look at each of the affiliates and advertises on my my sites, and ask to see the evidence of income from the. I could try to hide something, but suspect it would be very difficult.

Look at what the Government did with Airbnb. They forced them to hand over details of all Irish resident receiving money from Airbnb. It is very easy to get details for online transcations like this and it is easy data to use.

iTunes is an Apple company, which is based in Ireland. Amazon also have an operations here. There is no reason why the Government couldnt demand to get details of Irish making money from these companies.

Revenue are extremely technological advanced for a state body. They use software to deceide who to audit. AFAIK its quite random in the US. Irish Revenue monitor all card transactions in Ireland looking for off shore accounts being accessed here and to check if an individuals spending is matching their declared income. It is probably only a matter of time being amazon and itunes are asked to hand over data

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Stheno

Mr.S wrote: »

Is that true?

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No bull****e

Revenue’s enhanced access to information from debit and credit card sales – provided via banks and other financial institutions – has played a key role in focusing its investigations on businesses.

Techniques used to evade tax typically involved suppressing sales and purchases, under-declaring income and keeping cash payments “off the book”.

Records also show that tax authorities are developing a “conspicuous consumption model” to identify individuals who may be evading tax.

This approach involves analysing bank data to identify cases where there is a high probability that a person is under-declaring their income, because their reported income does not match their lifestyle expenses.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/revenue-targets-rental-sector-as-part-of-crackdown-1.2316446

I remember reading something about this last year, that the Revenue now require some level of info from the banks to enable them to identify people who e.g. might be working cash in hand.

And from : http://www.eoghanmurphy.ie/2012/11/19/finance-questions/

I am also informed by the Commissioners that they are constantly reviewing their methods of identifying compliance risks and, where they establish potential additional data sources they seek legislative change to gain access to such data. In that regard, since 2013 Revenue is provided annually with details of all credit and debit card payments from the merchant acquirers who handle such transactions. This source of data, when matched against Revenue’s register, is helping to identify those medical professionals and others who may operate on a cash only basis. However, because there are costs associated with the operation of debit/credit cards, there can be valid reasons for a business to decide not to accept them.

Clair de Lune

Neo-Dragon wrote: »

I'm an App developer (Apple) and not registered as self employed or anything. Have been since 2012.

I'm currently trying to get a mortgage as a first time buyer for myself and girlfriend.
I had my meeting today but I was unable to get it as I didn't have a P60, payslips or anything for them to base the mortgage off my gross pay.

When signing up to become an Apple developer, it says in the contract that they handled the tax for several countries (Ireland was listed) so never worried about that stuff.
But apparently since I'm not registered as self employed, the bank was unable to process the mortgage for me until I get this information.
I brought tons of paperwork with me, including payments earned for the last year, a year's worth of bank statements (for both current account/savings) and even highlighted in a printout of my contract with Apple that they handle tax.
The bank said I clearly was able to afford the mortgage but because I had no P60 or something "legal" like it (rather than print outs), they couldn't approve it.

I was wondering if anyone who develops an App for Google/Apple apply for a mortgage?
If so, do you have advice for me (or any advice is appreciated)?

My head is melted at the moment.

dnt mind dem hun, u nly hav 2 pay dat tax if u want to......xxxxxxxxxxx

newacc2015

newacc2015 wrote: »

Irish Revenue monitor all card transactions in Ireland looking for off shore accounts being accessed here and to check if an individuals spending is matching their declared income.

That is total fiction, revenue have no right to monitor account transactions and even if they could they would be unable monitor more than a fraction of people not would they need to audit if they already had the info from their surveillance.