"In Jan/Feb you should be spending 35-40% of training time swimming"

MojoMaker

Some of the major DON'Ts in Gerry's opinion for Tri swimmers. I bolded some of the ones I found more interesting or less well understood, but overall a good list which made a lot of sense to me. Many of these I heard from PK or Interested at some stage anyway :pac:

TECHNIQUE
DON’T ……
1. Breathe every 3rd stroke or higher.
2. Hold your breath before expulsion.
3. Breathe through your nose.
4. Take short, shallow breaths.
5. Linger while taking a breath.
6. Focus on front quadrant or catch-up style swimming.
7. Over rotate with hips.
8. Have low stroke rates.
9. Glide.
10. Be “loose” in the water.
11. Be a “scrunchy” swimmer. ie. look like a fetus.
12. Have a BIG focus on Distance Per Stroke (DPS).
13. Focus on least strokes across the pool.
14. Cup your hands.
15. “Salute” by placing your hand close to your forehead at entry.
16. Swim with straight arms under water.
17. Have your hands cross your mid-line underwater.
18. Have your hands enter of pull outside your shoulder line.
19. Have your elbow BELOW your wrist/hand underwater.
20. Pet the “kitty” underwater, ie. Don’t have a floppy, gentle or loose hand underwater.
21. Do the “S” stroke.
22. Cut your stroke short at the finish.
23. Do most pool swimming drills.
24. Do Sculling.
25. Focus on kicking harder.
26. Ignore using an ankle strap or swim snorkel.
27. Think working on technique solves it all.

The most important element of swim technique is tautness! The opposite of #10.


TRAINING
DON’T ……
1. Train at one speed only.
2. Swim straight workouts.
3. Swim in open water ONLY.
4. Swim long, non-stop open water sessions ONLY.
5. Have your main swim set(s) less than 50% of your workout time.
6. Not vary your workout composition.
7. Follow what Andy Potts does or ANY faster known swimmer/triathlete.
8. Follow instruction from Michael Phelps’ coach. Would you listen to Usain Bolt’s coach?
9. Wait until 3-4 weeks before your race to swim.
10. Eliminate warm-up or have small ones.
11. Forget to incorporate FAST swimming in EVERY workout. (May differ for some pros).
12. Wear fins in your main swim set.
13. Always use your pull buoy.
14. Wear BIG hand paddles. (Especially the pros who can’t drive them correctly).
15. Run or ride before KEY swim workouts.
16. Think just building your “engine” only will make you improve.
17. Think MORE is always better.
18. Train just HARD every day.
The most important element of training is consistency!

RACING
DON’T ……
1. Race in a wetsuit or goggles without testing them first.
2. Use a wetsuit too tight in the shoulders.
3. Race without a proper warm-up. (Everyone, pros alike are guilty of this).
4. State to self: “I just need to get to my bike”.
5. Start in front if NOT a fast swimmer.
6. Sprint the start IF not prepared for such.
7. Be afraid of a rip current at the start.
8. Emphasize drafting. (Can be different for SOME pros).
9. Forget to sight FREQUENTLY.
10. Sight “water-polo” style. (May be different for SOME pros).
11. Just follow the person in front of you.
12. Swim in the middle of the pack.
13. Breathe every 3rd stroke.
14. Tap feet unless you want a broken nose.
15. Swim with pool-polished strokes in choppy conditions.
16. ONLY measure your improvement by time.
17. Ignore the 1-body length rule (mainly for elite athletes).
The most important element of racing is experience. Race to “Be Race Ready”.

COACHING
DON’T ……
1. Think you can improve your swim on your own.
2. Hire a coach without specific triathlon swim/swim coaching experience.
3. Listen to fast swimmers on technique, unless they understand open water needs (MOST don’t).
4. Expect pool coaches to know much about open water technique for triathletes. They don’t.
5. Think any coach knows it ALL.
6. Hire a coach just because they have a coaching credential OR coached some named athlete.
7. Hire a coach if swimming is neither their strength nor yours (btw – same applies to bike and run).
8. Hire a coach who can’t/won’t explain why they prescribe their training.
9. Hire a coach who thinks there is ONLY one training route (theirs) to performance.
10. Put stock in coaches who state swim is not important. The sport is S-B-R!
11. Only swim in a Masters group if there isn’t a focus for triathletes.
12. Forget to thank your coach – some still do it for free.

MISCELLANEOUS
DON’T ……
1. Read or follow non-proven coaching instruction.
2. Watch You Tube swimming.
3. Buy a wetsuit based on price OR endorsement.
4. Think a swim lesson, clinic, camp or short training block in itself will make a difference.

FOR PROS (the *VIP TIPS)
DON’T ……
1. Think you can be competitive (front pack) on less than 30k a week without a prior swim background.
3. Train your swim sessions like your bike or run sessions.
3. Run or bike before a KEY swim session.
4. Race without a proper warm-up. Little has changed here in 31 years since watching my first tri; shocking actually.
5. Waste your time swimming Andy Potts’ workouts. You’re not him.
6. Skip acquiring open water skills, no matter how fast you are. Many lack these.
7. Do all your swim training in a pool.
8. Train your strength more IF swim is your weakness.
9. Over rest your swim going into a race unless a competitive swimmer.
10. Wear those HUGE paddles. Not even some elite swimmers can drive them correctly.
11. Do the “S” stroke.
12. Breathe every 3rd stroke or higher in a race.

griffin100

I'm reminded by this discussion of LoneSwimmers's annual post on New Years swimmers. Specifically the following:

SWIMMING IS HARD and that’s a good thing
Really, it’s harder than you think. A huge misconception is that swimming is easy. Sure it doesn’t seem so, as undistinguished-looking middle-aged folk like myself saunter down the deck wearing (shudder) Speedoes like that TV ad guy and singing “I gotta be me“. Surely the fit looking young people lounging outside the sauna are more worthy of emulation? Good swimming is a combination of CARDIO-RESPIRATORY FITNESS, attuned proprioceptive senses (understanding what every part of your body is doing) and multiple hours of TECHNIQUE training. I’m an average swimmer by swimming standards. Almost no other sport you have done will compare. Think you could pull off a Swan Lake prima donna performance based on 20 minutes practice every second day for two weeks? I don’t think so.

rooneyjm

cart man wrote: »

Thanks Zico for your feedback, but what if I am happy with my current swim level and not prioritise making improvements? I am time strapped and believe that I will make more net time by adding a 1hr turbo (3rd bike session) than a 3rd pool session.

1 hour swim session takes 2 hours out of your day so you could be adding a 2 hour turbo (just to make the most of your time)

Green&Red

Rather than starting a new thread, I'll throw this swimming related question in here.

I am a below average swimmer but two "positives" I have noticed are:
1. I swim faster than others in open swim, particularly sea swims, people I lag behind in the pool, I can beat them well in an open water swim
2. Fins - I'm coming back from a shoulder injury at the moment and am near the back of my group in the pool. Give me a pair of fins (like this morning) and I'm leading it out.

So clearly I've a terrible buoyancy issue, my legs drop, a problem solved by both fins and open water. What can I do in the pool to rectify this/replicate the conditions in OW or in fins?

The fins issue in particular, it seems to solve such a huge problem for me but I have no idea how to solve that problem without the fins, any thoughts?
Thanks

pgibbo

Green&Red wrote: »

Rather than starting a new thread, I'll throw this swimming related question in here.

I am a below average swimmer but two "positives" I have noticed are:
1. I swim faster than others in open swim, particularly sea swims, people I lag behind in the pool, I can beat them well in an open water swim
2. Fins - I'm coming back from a shoulder injury at the moment and am near the back of my group in the pool. Give me a pair of fins (like this morning) and I'm leading it out.

So clearly I've a terrible buoyancy issue, my legs drop, a problem solved by both fins and open water. What can I do in the pool to rectify this/replicate the conditions in OW or in fins?

The fins issue in particular, it seems to solve such a huge problem for me but I have no idea how to solve that problem without the fins, any thoughts?
Thanks

I'll let the more experienced swimmers give advice on body position.

If you're looking to emulate your OW position in a wetsuit in the pool then a good pull buoy or a pair of buoyancy shorts will give you that. The shorts are becoming more and more popular

joey100

Them shorts are every where now. Fella in the lane beside me had a pair of them, fins, pull buoy and paddles this morning, and was using them all at once, seemed delighted with himself when he beat me to the wall too, nice look over and a bit of a smile to himself. The competitiveness of the early morning swimmer.

How's your fitness G&R? Would that maybe be a reason for being better in open water? Could it be that while you might be hanging on for the session in the pool you could keep going for longer than the others? So they might be able to do a 100,200 or 400 faster in the pool but start lengthening the distance and they suffer more? No idea if that even could be it though, just a though!

pgibbo

If you're swimming with a group I'm assuming they're club sessions. Is there a coach on deck? Have you asked them for feedback? Very hard to pin point what may be causing positional issues without seeing someone swim.

Green&Red

My fitness at the minute isn't fantastic but its been this way when I was flying fit.
There is a coach.........who I haven't asked this question purely because I never thought of it and in fact with lower fitness and coming back from injury its more pronounced!

MalDoc

MojoMaker wrote: »

The acid test though...did you actually get faster through the water?

Thankfully, yes. I was given a number of other drills too though so it's hard to quantify. The biggest thing I wanted to fix was the drop off in times between pull buoy and swim which grows exponentially as the interval increases and my complete dependence on the pull buoy during all main sets last year.
Still not swim fit but I've essentially reversed it.
80% use last year to less than 20% at the minute.

Dory Dory

@ Green&Red - I assume when you swim in OW you are in a wetsuit??? I will defer to Peter Kern here as he is the resident swim expert, but the simple answer as I see it is you need to work on your kick.

Mr Tango

For low hips and feets its all about body position. Go on to you tube and search for balance drills. When I was swimming competitively we did these in every session. Up to 8 times a week in a set of 400 metres.

Based on what I have seen in the Phoenix club session have a quick check on your head position. If it is too high and your shoulders sit to high the back end generally falls. It's about pushing down in the water accross the top of your chest a bit more than you probably are which should bring the back end up a bit.

Best to ask the coach to have a look and recommend some drills. The drills aren't easy and take work theough. So be prepared to be frustrated. Worth it in the long run.

On improving kick I would build a small bit of kick in after warm up. Just 200m split as single lengths and then into 50s. If not used to kicking use fins for a bit and then gradually reduce their use. Key point is watch bending the knee when tired and really only kicking from the knee down. Fins will hide this but when you take them off you will know. Triathletes are normally not great kickers. The wetsuit is the solution in the race but I would still build a bit in to each session. Will also help with the body position.

peter kern

everything tango says is one way of doing it.

i guess its like medical advise, its hard to give if you dont see the person. which is why i like pgibos post, even thou i think tango is very likely right with head position etc . (to add i would think that g+ r cant strech his toes and the fins help him ,and the increased surface of fins push him up and make kick more effective, naturaly most swimmers become much faster with fins )
on this forum there is 2 guys with some of the worst body positons you can have. one guy is a 22 ish 1500 m in the open water and the other guy has made massive imporvements in his swimming recently without changing body position . the 22 min guy could change if effort was made ( but strenght in arms would give better results ) at the same time bike and run need the work more than the swim ( the reason why i hate phrases everybody should be doing x y and z at this time of the year ) and the other guy there is almost no way to change it, and right now he makes more than enough improvents in other aspects of the stroke ( and persoanlly my hope is , when he has made improvement in those aspects it will be a bit easeir to actaully stand a chance to improve postion )

i think often we need to ask whats really important ( not that i would have the answer in green and reds case ).
There is a thread in slowtwitch asking how many triatheltes can break 50 55 and a 1min for 100 i think this is all great,but there is no real purpose to be able to do something when you dodnt need to be able to go sub 55. iam more interested how slow can you be in the pool while getting the reslults you need in the race ie perform the best in the environmant we race most of the time .( the brownlees are an good example even will clarke was one of the slowest pool swimmer that was a relatively safe first pack swimmer) so in the case of green and red it could be better ( or not ) to focus more on the fact that you beat faster swimmers from pool in ow and it could be that other aspects in your stroke could get you more improvements if the wetsuit seems to outbalance your weakness
( of course its sound like a good time to focus on balance if you come back form a shoulder injury)
i have no idea of course and are annoyed with myself to write such a long answer on speculation but i guess this is the important thing for most to find out on what to focus as we dont have the time to focus on everything.
ps i would also not be the big fan if swimmers that dodnt know the basics of the stroke to watch you tube videos you look at a world champ fianal and quite often you see many differetn strokes. and unless you have shoe size 50 watching an ian thorpe video is likely useless. and those 6 or so swim smoth categories are not great eitehr in my mind.

.

peter kern

ps out of interest what wetsuit do you have?

Green&Red

I'll have a check on the wetsuit this evening PK, I can't think off the top of my head

Thanks for the answers, its something I'd like to improve on because I think it would make me a better swimmer but I've always been happy with my wetsuit swims so I can't complain (too much anyway!)

Maldoc suggested video analysis which i'll probably do and the balance exercises are a good plan, theres no harm in trying them and see if they improve me!

Kurt_Godel

Just watched the whole series from start to end. It's a brilliant talk, well worth watching all the way through.

Sometimes the way forward is staring you in the face. I've been trying to increase cadence by speeding up my recovery, maybe exiting slightly earlier... with not a thought to speeding up the catch phase. "Video I" was an eye-opener. Loads to learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anixwBs6Jh4

Kurt_Godel

This is probably the most useful set of vids on swimming I've yet seen. Thanks to zico for sending the link, its been very helpful in pulling a lot of ideas and notions together. Perfect January viewing!
Notes I took during the viewing (things that stood out in my mind):

Six fundamentals of swimming:
1. Education
2. Training
3. Technique
4. Strength
5. Physchology
6. Nutrition

BE2- "Breathe every 2 strokes training or racing"
BE3- "You can train like that sometimes to balance mechanics"

Rotation- "Fuggetabouddit"

Foundation to swimming:
-hold our bodies well in the water
-have a taut boudy (for balance)
-allignment
-swimming is linear
-keep the head in line with the spine
-stroke rate 80+ strokes per minute
-point toes inward for greater propulsion/less drag

Drills- "don't do them" (speaking about swimming/kicking on your side)
Drills that are good include snorkle, pb, band, fins; anything that keeps you taut and teaches allignment. They're done to create muscle memory of good stroke. Take them off and you'll swim 6 strokes good (before deteriorating). Soon 8 strokes good, then 10, then... until you don't need them.

Sets- "at least one 90 min set a week"
90 mins can be spent as:
10/20 mins WU
10 easy swim
10-15 pb/snorkle/band/kick (mechanics)
Main set 4x1000 (or 4x800, 4x600 for weaker swimmers) as:
4x250pb (20s rest) progression effort 70/75/80/85%+
10x100 fastest you can swim consistent with 3/5s rest between. You should be on the anaerobic threshold.
2x500 pb/snorkle/band/kick (mechanics) 75% effort; 30s rest between
10x100 90% effort, 30s+ rest between

25m pool better than a 50m pools because first 2 strokes off wall are perfect, and a 25m pool has twice the number of times you can become perfect, taut and alligned (and then you depreciate).

"Consistency is the key to success"

If swim is your weakness (of S/B/R) you need to spend a disproportionate amount of time to improve... spend 35/40% weekly training time swimming (in Feb).

Catch should be fast (as shown in video I), that is where the high turnover rate comes from. Most triathletes arm spends 30-70% longer underwater than fast swimmers.

Breathing- if a guy gets a beard rub on his shoulder, he is a late breather.

Day-to-day training:
-no weights
-use resistance bands instead and mimic the swim stroke
-build swim specific strength
-core exercises are useful

Racing:
-always get in the water before the race
-always do a swim warm-up
-if you can't get in the water bring some resistance bands and use these to warm-up.

MalDoc

Green&Red wrote: »

I'll have a check on the wetsuit this evening PK, I can't think off the top of my head

Thanks for the answers, its something I'd like to improve on because I think it would make me a better swimmer but I've always been happy with my wetsuit swims so I can't complain (too much anyway!)

Maldoc suggested video analysis which i'll probably do and the balance exercises are a good plan, theres no harm in trying them and see if they improve me!

Throw the kitchen sink at the problem.

This will be my 4th year in triathlon.

I swam a lot when I was young, think it was seal swimming or something like that. Never enjoyed it, aside from the odd breast stroke width.

Got lessons as an adult and was told within the first 5 mins that if I was on the titanic I would breast stroke my way to safety. Great I thought, no hope for triathlon.

A few years later a very good coach told me I'll make you a swimmer in 10 years. This really drove home how difficult it is and the work I had to do.

I've read a silly number of swimming related articles and constantly think how can I improve.

Video Analysis was a light bulb moment for me but I'm under no illusions that I'll be at least another 3 years before I can swim under 25 minutes open water and bike/run off the back of it.

Be boring it it was easy though right

Great thread!

JEmily

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

This is probably the most useful set of vids on swimming I've yet seen. Thanks to zico for sending the link, its been very helpful in pulling a lot of ideas and notions together. Perfect January viewing!
Notes I took during the viewing (things that stood out in my mind):

Six fundamentals of swimming:
1. Education
2. Training
3. Technique
4. Strength
5. Physchology
6. Nutrition

BE2- "Breathe every 2 strokes training or racing"
BE3- "You can train like that sometimes to balance mechanics"

Rotation- "Fuggetabouddit"

Foundation to swimming:
-hold our bodies well in the water
-have a taut boudy (for balance)
-allignment
-swimming is linear
-keep the head in line with the spine
-stroke rate 80+ strokes per minute
-point toes inward for greater propulsion/less drag

Drills- "don't do them" (speaking about swimming/kicking on your side)
Drills that are good include snorkle, pb, band, fins; anything that keeps you taut and teaches allignment. They're done to create muscle memory of good stroke. Take them off and you'll swim 6 strokes good (before deteriorating). Soon 8 strokes good, then 10, then... until you don't need them.

Sets- "at least one 90 min set a week"
90 mins can be spent as:
10/20 mins WU
10 easy swim
10-15 pb/snorkle/band/kick (mechanics)
Main set 4x1000 (or 4x800, 4x600 for weaker swimmers) as:
4x250pb (20s rest) progression effort 70/75/80/85%+
10x100 fastest you can swim consistent with 3/5s rest between. You should be on the anaerobic threshold.
2x500 pb/snorkle/band/kick (mechanics) 75% effort; 30s rest between
10x100 90% effort, 30s+ rest between

25m pool better than a 50m pools because first 2 strokes off wall are perfect, and a 25m pool has twice the number of times you can become perfect, taut and alligned (and then you depreciate).

"Consistency is the key to success"

If swim is your weakness (of S/B/R) you need to spend a disproportionate amount of time to improve... spend 35/40% weekly training time swimming (in Feb).

Catch should be fast (as shown in video I), that is where the high turnover rate comes from. Most triathletes arm spends 30-70% longer underwater than fast swimmers.

Breathing- if a guy gets a beard rub on his shoulder, he is a late breather.

Day-to-day training:
-no weights
-use resistance bands instead and mimic the swim stroke
-build swim specific strength
-core exercises are useful

Racing:
-always get in the water before the race
-always do a swim warm-up
-if you can't get in the water bring some resistance bands and use these to warm-up.

Why do we have to breathe every 2 strokes, so is breathing every 3 wrong???

sconhome

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

25m pool better than a 50m pools because first 2 strokes off wall are perfect, and a 25m pool has twice the number of times you can become perfect, taut and alligned (and then you depreciate).

This I like ^^.

Swimming in a 20m pool so I'm 2.5 times better off than the 50m

Interesting about stroke rate at 80+ not a chance with my gammy shoulder. I'd be popping and clicking so much you'd think there was a pod of dolphins in the pool.

peter kern

JEmily wrote: »

Why do we have to breathe every 2 strokes, so is breathing every 3 wrong???

its not wrong but when you go really fast over 50 meter its not really possible. (oxygen intake)
if you go steady by all means breath every third if that flaots your boat.

Kurt_Godel

sconhome wrote: »

This I like ^^.

Swimming in a 20m pool so I'm 2.5 times better off than the 50m

Made me wonder if touch turning was better than tumble turning, for the same reasons.

peter kern

JEmily wrote: »

Why do we have to breathe every 2 strokes, so is breathing every 3 wrong???

its not wrong but when you go really fast over 50 meter its not really possible. (oxygen intake)
if you go steady by all means breath every third if that flaots your boat.

peter kern

JEmily wrote: »

Why do we have to breathe every 2 strokes, so is breathing every 3 wrong???

its not wrong but when you go really fast its not really possible. (oxygen intake)
if you go steady by all means breath every third if that flaots your boat.

mad m

"No weights"....Feck.......Normally do 2/3 days of weight training on top of swimming. Weights in morning, swim in evening. Sometimes I would find id swim better/faster after doing a morning weight session....

Cut down the weights near Open swim season to maybe 1 session a week and then a circuit training session.

mad m

Couple years back I relied heavily on my PB during sessions. I'd do a 100 with it then without. It seemed an easy fix for me to get through the sessions ahead as it did give me a slight advantage over some other swimmers in lane I was in. I'd find other swimmers just couldn't use the PB, one even said he couldn't understand how I was faster using it when I wasn't kicking my legs.

I decided a while back that it would go into the under stairs cupboard. I took it out tonight plus my snorkel which was also gathering some cobwebs.

I did a 250 with snorkel with PB and my shoulders/arms were hanging off me, plus the last 25 I was all over the place. I was very surprised by this. Must give that 90min session a go. I'm sure I'll be in bits after it.:)

pgibbo

This may be of interest to people that liked the video series