"In Jan/Feb you should be spending 35-40% of training time swimming"

Kurt_Godel

This is a great Youtube vid (haven't watched all of them yet), got sent it by another poster. Some real gold in there, a lot of advice which backs up things intuitively discovered, including:

"Train fast to race fast"

"Swim fast in every single workout"

"If you only do intervals at 1:30 (pace) you will always race at 1:30. If you do intervals at 1:30 and includes bursts at 1:20 or faster, then on raceday you will always race faster than 1:30."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdtZctJW_Yk

MojoMaker

It's an excellent series - well worth a watch, I think 13 vids totalling 90 mins or so.

Looks like Gerry's finally been listening to PK.

Some other nuggets - "ditch the drills" and "the snorkel is the most valuable piece of kit in the triathlete's bag".

pgibbo

When are you doing the 4x1000 Kurt? :eek:

it's all about the CONSISTENCY!!!!

peter kern

but kurt thinks oly guys train less than LD guys ;-)

Kurt_Godel

I've done 5x1000 before, found it very useful. In fact it is one of the sessions that benefited from the "swim fast" points that stood out from the linked video. The 5x1000 we rotated lead, and I swam a 1km PB while 5sec behind feet. When I went to lead out, I ended up swimming much faster than any sole 1km before. No matter how you achieve it- drafting, sprinting, fins, whatever- swimming fast teaches you that you can swim fast, and helps build correct stroke/position which can then be applied to distance swims. One of those things that you notice intuitively over the years, so good to see that point highlighted in the video.

zico10

pgibbo wrote: »

When are you doing the 4x1000 Kurt? :eek:

it's all about the CONSISTENCY!!!!

There's nothing particularly daunting about the 4*1000 set he describes. Half of it is pull. Then for the second set of 10*100, even though you're swimming fast, he recommends 30-45 seconds rest. This is a huge ammount of time, if Kurt were to take the maximum permissible recovery, he'd be resting for more than 50% of the time he has to swim in this set. The 4,000m would be a piece of p!ss to him and he'd do it in little over an hour, I'd say.

I certainly see value in it, and it's a set I intend using a good bit. I'm coming around to the thinking that it will stand me in better stead, than the 10*400m sessions I regularly do.

MojoMaker wrote: »

It's an excellent series - well worth a watch, I think 13 vids totalling 90 mins or so.

Looks like Gerry's finally been listening to PK.

Some other nuggets - "ditch the drills" and "the snorkel is the most valuable piece of kit in the triathlete's bag".

It's a an excellent series certainly, but I think the two nuggets you highlight should not be looked at in isolation. He only recommends ditching the drills to the typical triathlete who doesn't spend enough time in the water and should instead just spend their time swimming. I don't think he's necessarily saying that drills are no good. At least that's what I took from it.

The nugget on the snorkel needs to be qualified as well. Apart from it being just one man's opinion, the danger of just taking it in isolation is that somebody might just look at this and think swimming with a snorkel is great training, spend all their time in the pool using one, and then when it comes to race day wonder why they struggle in the swim.
I saw someone recently spend half an hour swimming with paddles and fins, not a very good use of time I would have thought, but perhaps this swimmer heard from someone that paddles are 'the most valuable piece of kit in the triathlete's bag', then heard from someone else that fins are.
He goes into detail on how to breathe correctly, this would be a far more valuable lesson to take away than what he says about snorkels.

pgibbo

zico10 wrote: »

There's nothing particularly daunting about the 4*1000 set he describes. Half of it is pull. Then for the second set of 10*100, even though you're swimming fast, he recommends 30-45 seconds rest. This is a huge ammount of time, if Kurt were to take the maximum permissible recovery, he'd be resting for more than 50% of the time he has to swim in this set. The 4,000m would be a piece of p!ss to him and he'd do it in little over an hour, I'd say.

I certainly see value in it, and it's a set I intend using a good bit. I'm coming around to the thinking that it will stand me in better stead, than the 10*400m sessions I regularly do.



It's a an excellent series certainly, but I think the two nuggets you highlight should not be looked at in isolation. He only recommends ditching the drills to the typical triathlete who doesn't spend enough time in the water and should instead just spend their time swimming. I don't think he's necessarily saying that drills are no good. At least that's what I took from it.

The nugget on the snorkel needs to be qualified as well. Apart from it being just one man's opinion, the danger of just taking it in isolation is that somebody might just look at this and think swimming with a snorkel is great training, spend all their time in the pool using one, and then when it comes to race day wonder why they struggle in the swim.
I saw someone recently spend half an hour swimming with paddles and fins, not a very good use of time I would have thought, but perhaps this swimmer heard from someone that paddles are 'the most valuable piece of kit in the triathlete's bag', then heard from someone else that fins are.
He goes into detail on how to breathe correctly, this would be a far more valuable lesson to take away than what he says about snorkels.

So I went back to listen to G as I'd never seen the series before. Fair comment about the session. So minimum of 3 workouts a week consistently with at least one for 90mins. Simples

Main set for anyone without YouTube at work
4x250 pull with snorkel and band with 20s rest as a progressive set. Each 250 gets harder (70, 75, 80, 85-88%)
10x100 as fast as you can with 3s to 7s rest (85-88% effort)
2x500 pull with snorkel and band with 30s rest at 75% focus on form
10x100 swim 30 to 60s rest at 90% effort

Now to find the time to listen to the whole series from the start. Thanks Kurt

peter kern

for the picking out one point and make it the gold nugget ...


joe fillol thinks the snorkls are useles gary thinks very useful
joe thinks paddles are very useful gary dosnt like them

both are very good coaches

to pick out one point and say thats the key to success is questionalbe ( if there was one it would be that they are both very good at what they do ;- )

of course you need to also consider with what atheltes they work with ( and garys video is for the 20 -40 min mile swimmer ) joe only with elite guys and even the bad swimmers in his squad are very good swimmers

and certainly to learn swimming a snorkle can be a good tool.in my mind up to 7 min 400 m swimmer , useful, bellow 7 min not so useful.

BTH

Does he mention anything about TRX on the poolside??

MojoMaker

Incidentally, in his note about spending up to 40% of your time swimming at this time of the year, he does preface this with "if your tri weakness is swimming" and looks like his training groups are mostly advanced AGers with some new US domestic lower-tier pros, although the audience in the video talk does seem to be a very mixed bag!

peter kern

BTH wrote: »

Does he mention anything about TRX on the poolside??

cross fit he suggests

Mr Tango

IS it just me or would 4 (or 5) X 1000 not just be really boring? Similar to a 2 hour turbo just pedalling ?

cart man

Mr Tango wrote: »

IS it just me or would 4 (or 5) X 1000 not just be really boring? Similar to a 2 hour turbo just pedalling ?

No it's not just you who thinks that. :rolleyes:


In my limited experience I think 40% time to swimming is too much. That would be along the lines of what I did last spring. All that ended up happening was that I got out of the water reasonably high up the field and continued to be passed through out the race. This year I will cut back on swimming until June and add an extra 1-2 turbo sessions, I reckon the couple mins (if even) lost in swim will be made up in better bike split and feeling fresher on the run. Anyone wiser have any thoughts on this?

griffin100

In my experience it seems to me that you will get a different opinion from almost every coach and you will almost always be able to find a coach that says what you want to hear.

Different opinions on:
DPS
Using pull buoys
Using snorkels
Doing drills
Swimming fast in every session
The glide
Stroke rate
Head position
The catch
Etc etc

What needs to be taken into account is that the advice above and in many similar videos is advice for AG triathletes, people who for the most part don't swim big weekly distances and race in wetsuits. From what I've seen at my kids swim squad sessions the advice given to pure swimmers is very different.

Think about the difference between a swimmer and your average AG triathlete. I'm an ok tri swimmer, I try to swim around 8-10km per week and I usually exit the water in the top quarter of the tri pack. My ten year old son can match me over 50m in the pool.

bryangiggsy

Re swimming fast... maybe jb can back me up here as he sees the same guy ... There is a chap in the pool we swim in in Drogheda that is a fish I reckon an 18-19 min 1500 m swimmer ... he gets in the pool and just swims really fast non stop length after length ... he puts 2 lengths of a 25m into me every 6 lengths i have swam..he has a big tumble turn but other than that the only difference between I and him is his cadence speed as his no of strokes per length is exact same as me 22-23. So he uses 22-23 strokes to cover one length but covers the length a lot faster than me . His strength is far superior to mine while his kick like mine does not really play a part as his hips drop like mine... so the difference imo is pure upper bodystrength to be able to turn 22-23 much quicker than I can . For some context I am a 23 min 1500 m swimmer in wetsuit.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Re swimming fast... maybe jb can back me up here as he sees the same guy ... There is a chap in the pool we swim in in Drogheda that is a fish I reckon an 18-19 min 1500 m swimmer ... he gets in the pool and just swims really fast non stop length after length ... he puts 2 lengths of a 25m into me every 6 lengths i have swam..he has a big tumble turn but other than that the only difference between I and him is his cadence speed as his no of strokes per length is exact same as me 22-23. So he uses 22-23 strokes to cover one length but covers the length a lot faster than me . His strength is far superior to mine while his kick like mine does not really play a part as his hips drop like mine... so the difference imo is pure upper bodystrength to be able to turn 22-23 much quicker than I can . For some context I am a 23 min 1500 m swimmer in wetsuit.

That guy is a machine, gets in swims about 4k holding 1.15s/20s all the way with no drop off in pace and gets out. Not the most attractive style but a very fast and powerful stroke. Super upper body strength and fitness to hold that pace for so long.
BTW i hate when he is in the lane as its depressing how many times he overtakes me:)

pgibbo

Mr Tango wrote: »

IS it just me or would 4 (or 5) X 1000 not just be really boring? Similar to a 2 hour turbo just pedalling ?

It's not a straight 4x1000. They're 4x1000 as 4x250, 10x100, 2x500 & 10x100

4x1000 would be mind numbing

sconhome

Mr Tango wrote: »

IS it just me or would 4 (or 5) X 1000 not just be really boring? Similar to a 2 hour turbo just pedalling ?

Spare a thought for those of us who would need 2 hours to do 4x1000 swim

MalDoc

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Re swimming fast... maybe jb can back me up here as he sees the same guy ... There is a chap in the pool we swim in in Drogheda that is a fish I reckon an 18-19 min 1500 m swimmer ... he gets in the pool and just swims really fast non stop length after length ... he puts 2 lengths of a 25m into me every 6 lengths i have swam..he has a big tumble turn but other than that the only difference between I and him is his cadence speed as his no of strokes per length is exact same as me 22-23. So he uses 22-23 strokes to cover one length but covers the length a lot faster than me . His strength is far superior to mine while his kick like mine does not really play a part as his hips drop like mine... so the difference imo is pure upper bodystrength to be able to turn 22-23 much quicker than I can . For some context I am a 23 min 1500 m swimmer in wetsuit.

I'm nowhere near your level (>30 minuntes 1500m in a wetsuit) but really struggled to raise my cadence above 60 spm all last season.
Anything over 100m and I was stuck at this speed. My hand was entering the water almost a foot further than where I thought.
I was given an exaggerated hand entry drill (think hand entering up near your ears) which felt alien to me and do 4*25m at the start and end of your session.
It made a huge difference and after two weeks I was at ~68 spm for the same effort. This was also after a 4-5 week lay off with no swimming and almost zero training so not a fitness issue.
Probably not a factor but said I'd throw it out there.

bryangiggsy

Colt Salmon Mothball wrote: »

That guy is a machine, gets in swims about 4k holding 1.15s/20s all the way with no drop off in pace and gets out. Not the most attractive style but a very fast and powerful stroke. Super upper body strength and fitness to hold that pace for so long.
BTW i hate when he is in the lane as its depressing how many times he overtakes me:)

The fooker even gets out of the pool quicker than anyone else . 4k bang jumps out of pool as if it's t1 and heads for the showers

peter kern

many roads lead to rome and a good coach would give different advidse to different swimmers because they have a good understadning what works for certain type of athelte.

and here is the problem you need to understand why somebody would suggest something in the overall system ( if you look at this you understand while gary likes snorkels a lot ) wheras a more strenght focused coach would advocate more paddal work .

overall it is always much better to look at the bigger picture than singeling one or 2 things out . but while he buts differetne accents on overall he speaks the same language as lets say joe fillol that dosnt like snorkels.


I would not really agree with garrys view to not like paddles for slower swimmers but I understand his reasoning , for slower swimmers and he also compensates it with using another toy that has a very similar effect and is more useful for what his main emphasis is on swimming a tougt body.

and of course all those talks are never specific but as long you start to think afterwards they are good.



Me thinks s a coach what you can learn , how calm and precise he is he has a very good presence and communicates very well. iam pretty sure he lost very few people during this talk.

as a swimmer that you have to be present in the water and piss poor training leads to piss poor results.

griffin100 wrote: »

In my experience it seems to me that you will get a different opinion from almost every coach and you will almost always be able to find a coach that says what you want to hear.

Different opinions on:
DPS
Using pull buoys
Using snorkels
Doing drills
Swimming fast in every session
The glide
Stroke rate
Head position
The catch
Etc etc

What needs to be taken into account is that the advice above and in many similar videos is advice for AG triathletes, people who for the most part don't swim big weekly distances and race in wetsuits. From what I've seen at my kids swim squad sessions the advice given to pure swimmers is very different.

Think about the difference between a swimmer and your average AG triathlete. I'm an ok tri swimmer, I try to swim around 8-10km per week and I usually exit the water in the top quarter of the tri pack. My ten year old son can match me over 50m in the pool.

zico10

cart man wrote: »

In my limited experience I think 40% time to swimming is too much. That would be along the lines of what I did last spring. All that ended up happening was that I got out of the water reasonably high up the field and continued to be passed through out the race. This year I will cut back on swimming until June and add an extra 1-2 turbo sessions, I reckon the couple mins (if even) lost in swim will be made up in better bike split and feeling fresher on the run. Anyone wiser have any thoughts on this?

It's not just about the time lost in the water though.

You talk about feeling better for the run, what about being fresher for the bike? I'd suggest that cutting back on your swim training is not the way to go about this. You could be as strong as you like on the bike, but you won't perform to your potential if the swim takes too much out of you. This needs to be a consideration as well.

Apart from this series of videos, I've heard it from lots of sources that now is the time of year you make improvements in the water. Cutting back on your swim now, then increasing it in June, seems counter intuitive to me.

cart man

zico10 wrote: »

It's not just about the time lost in the water though.

I've heard it from lots of sources that now is the time of year you make improvements in the water. Cutting back on your swim now, then increasing it in June, seems counter intuitive to me.

Thanks Zico for your feedback, but what if I am happy with my current swim level and not prioritise making improvements? I am time strapped and believe that I will make more net time by adding a 1hr turbo (3rd bike session) than a 3rd pool session.

Mr Tango

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Re swimming fast... maybe jb can back me up here as he sees the same guy ... There is a chap in the pool we swim in in Drogheda that is a fish I reckon an 18-19 min 1500 m swimmer ... he gets in the pool and just swims really fast non stop length after length ... he puts 2 lengths of a 25m into me every 6 lengths i have swam..he has a big tumble turn but other than that the only difference between I and him is his cadence speed as his no of strokes per length is exact same as me 22-23. So he uses 22-23 strokes to cover one length but covers the length a lot faster than me . His strength is far superior to mine while his kick like mine does not really play a part as his hips drop like mine... so the difference imo is pure upper bodystrength to be able to turn 22-23 much quicker than I can . For some context I am a 23 min 1500 m swimmer in wetsuit.

Technique - probably many years of club swimming

bryangiggsy

MalDoc wrote: »

I'm nowhere near your level (>30 minuntes 1500m in a wetsuit) but really struggled to raise my cadence above 60 spm all last season.
Anything over 100m and I was stuck at this speed. My hand was entering the water almost a foot further than where I thought.
I was given an exaggerated hand entry drill (think hand entering up near your ears) which felt alien to me and do 4*25m at the start and end of your session.
It made a huge difference and after two weeks I was at ~68 spm for the same effort. This was also after a 4-5 week lay off with no swimming and almost zero training so not a fitness issue.
Probably not a factor but said I'd throw it out there.

Cheers for that. Am always willing to try new things

bryangiggsy

Mr Tango wrote: »

Technique - probably many years of club swimming

Defo a club swimmer since a young age. Sticks out like a sore thumb as such.

MojoMaker

MalDoc wrote: »

I'm nowhere near your level (>30 minuntes 1500m in a wetsuit) but really struggled to raise my cadence above 60 spm all last season.
Anything over 100m and I was stuck at this speed. My hand was entering the water almost a foot further than where I thought.
I was given an exaggerated hand entry drill (think hand entering up near your ears) which felt alien to me and do 4*25m at the start and end of your session.
It made a huge difference and after two weeks I was at ~68 spm for the same effort. This was also after a 4-5 week lay off with no swimming and almost zero training so not a fitness issue.
Probably not a factor but said I'd throw it out there.

The acid test though...did you actually get faster through the water?

zico10

cart man wrote: »

Thanks Zico for your feedback, but what if I am happy with my current swim level and not prioritise making improvements? I am time strapped and believe that I will make more net time by adding a 1hr turbo (3rd bike session) than a 3rd pool session.

I don't like lecturing to people on what they should and shouldn't be doing. I often ignore advice and just do what I think needs to done in my own training. If you think you'd be better served with an extra hour on the turbo, then that's your decision to make.

It's just you suggested in your first post that you were considering cutting back on swimming now, then increasing it in June. My advice, for what it's worth, would be to wait until June to cut back on your swimming. You could introduce the extra turbo set then. In the three swim sessions you do, just make sure there is fast swimming in each one. You'll make fitness gains this way, and they will transfer to the bike.

zico10

For cart man or any other triathletes pressed for time this would be worth a listen;
http://effortlessswimming.com/podcast/race-ready-with-gerry-rodrigues-of-tower-26/

It's an interview with the same guy in the YouTube video. In summary the 4*1,000 set pgibbo described can be done 4*900, 4*800, etc.

The speaker also details a very specific race set. You might look like a plonker doing it in your local pool, but c'est la vie.

For the really time pressed athletes, he starts detailing the sets, someone only swimming 2/3 times a week should be doing, from 18:30.

Credit to PK for making me aware of this, I'm sure he won't mind me sharing.

pgibbo

The other option is to swim race pace all the time

peter kern

zico10 wrote: »

I don't like lecturing to people on what they should and shouldn't be doing. I often ignore advice and just do what I think needs to done in my own training. If you think you'd be better served with an extra hour on the turbo, then that's your decision to make.

It's just you suggested in your first post that you were considering cutting back on swimming now, then increasing it in June. My advice, for what it's worth, would be to wait until June to cut back on your swimming. You could introduce the extra turbo set then. In the three swim sessions you do, just make sure there is fast swimming in each one. You'll make fitness gains this way, and they will transfer to the bike.

i think cartman has it right

MojoMaker

Some of the major DON'Ts in Gerry's opinion for Tri swimmers. I bolded some of the ones I found more interesting or less well understood, but overall a good list which made a lot of sense to me. Many of these I heard from PK or Interested at some stage anyway :pac:

TECHNIQUE
DON’T ……
1. Breathe every 3rd stroke or higher.
2. Hold your breath before expulsion.
3. Breathe through your nose.
4. Take short, shallow breaths.
5. Linger while taking a breath.
6. Focus on front quadrant or catch-up style swimming.
7. Over rotate with hips.
8. Have low stroke rates.
9. Glide.
10. Be “loose” in the water.
11. Be a “scrunchy” swimmer. ie. look like a fetus.
12. Have a BIG focus on Distance Per Stroke (DPS).
13. Focus on least strokes across the pool.
14. Cup your hands.
15. “Salute” by placing your hand close to your forehead at entry.
16. Swim with straight arms under water.
17. Have your hands cross your mid-line underwater.
18. Have your hands enter of pull outside your shoulder line.
19. Have your elbow BELOW your wrist/hand underwater.
20. Pet the “kitty” underwater, ie. Don’t have a floppy, gentle or loose hand underwater.
21. Do the “S” stroke.
22. Cut your stroke short at the finish.
23. Do most pool swimming drills.
24. Do Sculling.
25. Focus on kicking harder.
26. Ignore using an ankle strap or swim snorkel.
27. Think working on technique solves it all.

The most important element of swim technique is tautness! The opposite of #10.


TRAINING
DON’T ……
1. Train at one speed only.
2. Swim straight workouts.
3. Swim in open water ONLY.
4. Swim long, non-stop open water sessions ONLY.
5. Have your main swim set(s) less than 50% of your workout time.
6. Not vary your workout composition.
7. Follow what Andy Potts does or ANY faster known swimmer/triathlete.
8. Follow instruction from Michael Phelps’ coach. Would you listen to Usain Bolt’s coach?
9. Wait until 3-4 weeks before your race to swim.
10. Eliminate warm-up or have small ones.
11. Forget to incorporate FAST swimming in EVERY workout. (May differ for some pros).
12. Wear fins in your main swim set.
13. Always use your pull buoy.
14. Wear BIG hand paddles. (Especially the pros who can’t drive them correctly).
15. Run or ride before KEY swim workouts.
16. Think just building your “engine” only will make you improve.
17. Think MORE is always better.
18. Train just HARD every day.
The most important element of training is consistency!

RACING
DON’T ……
1. Race in a wetsuit or goggles without testing them first.
2. Use a wetsuit too tight in the shoulders.
3. Race without a proper warm-up. (Everyone, pros alike are guilty of this).
4. State to self: “I just need to get to my bike”.
5. Start in front if NOT a fast swimmer.
6. Sprint the start IF not prepared for such.
7. Be afraid of a rip current at the start.
8. Emphasize drafting. (Can be different for SOME pros).
9. Forget to sight FREQUENTLY.
10. Sight “water-polo” style. (May be different for SOME pros).
11. Just follow the person in front of you.
12. Swim in the middle of the pack.
13. Breathe every 3rd stroke.
14. Tap feet unless you want a broken nose.
15. Swim with pool-polished strokes in choppy conditions.
16. ONLY measure your improvement by time.
17. Ignore the 1-body length rule (mainly for elite athletes).
The most important element of racing is experience. Race to “Be Race Ready”.

COACHING
DON’T ……
1. Think you can improve your swim on your own.
2. Hire a coach without specific triathlon swim/swim coaching experience.
3. Listen to fast swimmers on technique, unless they understand open water needs (MOST don’t).
4. Expect pool coaches to know much about open water technique for triathletes. They don’t.
5. Think any coach knows it ALL.
6. Hire a coach just because they have a coaching credential OR coached some named athlete.
7. Hire a coach if swimming is neither their strength nor yours (btw – same applies to bike and run).
8. Hire a coach who can’t/won’t explain why they prescribe their training.
9. Hire a coach who thinks there is ONLY one training route (theirs) to performance.
10. Put stock in coaches who state swim is not important. The sport is S-B-R!
11. Only swim in a Masters group if there isn’t a focus for triathletes.
12. Forget to thank your coach – some still do it for free.

MISCELLANEOUS
DON’T ……
1. Read or follow non-proven coaching instruction.
2. Watch You Tube swimming.
3. Buy a wetsuit based on price OR endorsement.
4. Think a swim lesson, clinic, camp or short training block in itself will make a difference.

FOR PROS (the *VIP TIPS)
DON’T ……
1. Think you can be competitive (front pack) on less than 30k a week without a prior swim background.
3. Train your swim sessions like your bike or run sessions.
3. Run or bike before a KEY swim session.
4. Race without a proper warm-up. Little has changed here in 31 years since watching my first tri; shocking actually.
5. Waste your time swimming Andy Potts’ workouts. You’re not him.
6. Skip acquiring open water skills, no matter how fast you are. Many lack these.
7. Do all your swim training in a pool.
8. Train your strength more IF swim is your weakness.
9. Over rest your swim going into a race unless a competitive swimmer.
10. Wear those HUGE paddles. Not even some elite swimmers can drive them correctly.
11. Do the “S” stroke.
12. Breathe every 3rd stroke or higher in a race.

griffin100

I'm reminded by this discussion of LoneSwimmers's annual post on New Years swimmers. Specifically the following:

SWIMMING IS HARD and that’s a good thing
Really, it’s harder than you think. A huge misconception is that swimming is easy. Sure it doesn’t seem so, as undistinguished-looking middle-aged folk like myself saunter down the deck wearing (shudder) Speedoes like that TV ad guy and singing “I gotta be me“. Surely the fit looking young people lounging outside the sauna are more worthy of emulation? Good swimming is a combination of CARDIO-RESPIRATORY FITNESS, attuned proprioceptive senses (understanding what every part of your body is doing) and multiple hours of TECHNIQUE training. I’m an average swimmer by swimming standards. Almost no other sport you have done will compare. Think you could pull off a Swan Lake prima donna performance based on 20 minutes practice every second day for two weeks? I don’t think so.

rooneyjm

cart man wrote: »

Thanks Zico for your feedback, but what if I am happy with my current swim level and not prioritise making improvements? I am time strapped and believe that I will make more net time by adding a 1hr turbo (3rd bike session) than a 3rd pool session.

1 hour swim session takes 2 hours out of your day so you could be adding a 2 hour turbo (just to make the most of your time)

Green&Red

Rather than starting a new thread, I'll throw this swimming related question in here.

I am a below average swimmer but two "positives" I have noticed are:
1. I swim faster than others in open swim, particularly sea swims, people I lag behind in the pool, I can beat them well in an open water swim
2. Fins - I'm coming back from a shoulder injury at the moment and am near the back of my group in the pool. Give me a pair of fins (like this morning) and I'm leading it out.

So clearly I've a terrible buoyancy issue, my legs drop, a problem solved by both fins and open water. What can I do in the pool to rectify this/replicate the conditions in OW or in fins?

The fins issue in particular, it seems to solve such a huge problem for me but I have no idea how to solve that problem without the fins, any thoughts?
Thanks

pgibbo

Green&Red wrote: »

Rather than starting a new thread, I'll throw this swimming related question in here.

I am a below average swimmer but two "positives" I have noticed are:
1. I swim faster than others in open swim, particularly sea swims, people I lag behind in the pool, I can beat them well in an open water swim
2. Fins - I'm coming back from a shoulder injury at the moment and am near the back of my group in the pool. Give me a pair of fins (like this morning) and I'm leading it out.

So clearly I've a terrible buoyancy issue, my legs drop, a problem solved by both fins and open water. What can I do in the pool to rectify this/replicate the conditions in OW or in fins?

The fins issue in particular, it seems to solve such a huge problem for me but I have no idea how to solve that problem without the fins, any thoughts?
Thanks

I'll let the more experienced swimmers give advice on body position.

If you're looking to emulate your OW position in a wetsuit in the pool then a good pull buoy or a pair of buoyancy shorts will give you that. The shorts are becoming more and more popular

joey100

Them shorts are every where now. Fella in the lane beside me had a pair of them, fins, pull buoy and paddles this morning, and was using them all at once, seemed delighted with himself when he beat me to the wall too, nice look over and a bit of a smile to himself. The competitiveness of the early morning swimmer.

How's your fitness G&R? Would that maybe be a reason for being better in open water? Could it be that while you might be hanging on for the session in the pool you could keep going for longer than the others? So they might be able to do a 100,200 or 400 faster in the pool but start lengthening the distance and they suffer more? No idea if that even could be it though, just a though!

pgibbo

If you're swimming with a group I'm assuming they're club sessions. Is there a coach on deck? Have you asked them for feedback? Very hard to pin point what may be causing positional issues without seeing someone swim.

Green&Red

My fitness at the minute isn't fantastic but its been this way when I was flying fit.
There is a coach.........who I haven't asked this question purely because I never thought of it and in fact with lower fitness and coming back from injury its more pronounced!

MalDoc

MojoMaker wrote: »

The acid test though...did you actually get faster through the water?

Thankfully, yes. I was given a number of other drills too though so it's hard to quantify. The biggest thing I wanted to fix was the drop off in times between pull buoy and swim which grows exponentially as the interval increases and my complete dependence on the pull buoy during all main sets last year.
Still not swim fit but I've essentially reversed it.
80% use last year to less than 20% at the minute.

Dory Dory

@ Green&Red - I assume when you swim in OW you are in a wetsuit??? I will defer to Peter Kern here as he is the resident swim expert, but the simple answer as I see it is you need to work on your kick.

Mr Tango

For low hips and feets its all about body position. Go on to you tube and search for balance drills. When I was swimming competitively we did these in every session. Up to 8 times a week in a set of 400 metres.

Based on what I have seen in the Phoenix club session have a quick check on your head position. If it is too high and your shoulders sit to high the back end generally falls. It's about pushing down in the water accross the top of your chest a bit more than you probably are which should bring the back end up a bit.

Best to ask the coach to have a look and recommend some drills. The drills aren't easy and take work theough. So be prepared to be frustrated. Worth it in the long run.

On improving kick I would build a small bit of kick in after warm up. Just 200m split as single lengths and then into 50s. If not used to kicking use fins for a bit and then gradually reduce their use. Key point is watch bending the knee when tired and really only kicking from the knee down. Fins will hide this but when you take them off you will know. Triathletes are normally not great kickers. The wetsuit is the solution in the race but I would still build a bit in to each session. Will also help with the body position.

peter kern

everything tango says is one way of doing it.

i guess its like medical advise, its hard to give if you dont see the person. which is why i like pgibos post, even thou i think tango is very likely right with head position etc . (to add i would think that g+ r cant strech his toes and the fins help him ,and the increased surface of fins push him up and make kick more effective, naturaly most swimmers become much faster with fins )
on this forum there is 2 guys with some of the worst body positons you can have. one guy is a 22 ish 1500 m in the open water and the other guy has made massive imporvements in his swimming recently without changing body position . the 22 min guy could change if effort was made ( but strenght in arms would give better results ) at the same time bike and run need the work more than the swim ( the reason why i hate phrases everybody should be doing x y and z at this time of the year ) and the other guy there is almost no way to change it, and right now he makes more than enough improvents in other aspects of the stroke ( and persoanlly my hope is , when he has made improvement in those aspects it will be a bit easeir to actaully stand a chance to improve postion )

i think often we need to ask whats really important ( not that i would have the answer in green and reds case ).
There is a thread in slowtwitch asking how many triatheltes can break 50 55 and a 1min for 100 i think this is all great,but there is no real purpose to be able to do something when you dodnt need to be able to go sub 55. iam more interested how slow can you be in the pool while getting the reslults you need in the race ie perform the best in the environmant we race most of the time .( the brownlees are an good example even will clarke was one of the slowest pool swimmer that was a relatively safe first pack swimmer) so in the case of green and red it could be better ( or not ) to focus more on the fact that you beat faster swimmers from pool in ow and it could be that other aspects in your stroke could get you more improvements if the wetsuit seems to outbalance your weakness
( of course its sound like a good time to focus on balance if you come back form a shoulder injury)
i have no idea of course and are annoyed with myself to write such a long answer on speculation but i guess this is the important thing for most to find out on what to focus as we dont have the time to focus on everything.
ps i would also not be the big fan if swimmers that dodnt know the basics of the stroke to watch you tube videos you look at a world champ fianal and quite often you see many differetn strokes. and unless you have shoe size 50 watching an ian thorpe video is likely useless. and those 6 or so swim smoth categories are not great eitehr in my mind.

.

peter kern

ps out of interest what wetsuit do you have?

Green&Red

I'll have a check on the wetsuit this evening PK, I can't think off the top of my head

Thanks for the answers, its something I'd like to improve on because I think it would make me a better swimmer but I've always been happy with my wetsuit swims so I can't complain (too much anyway!)

Maldoc suggested video analysis which i'll probably do and the balance exercises are a good plan, theres no harm in trying them and see if they improve me!

Kurt_Godel

Just watched the whole series from start to end. It's a brilliant talk, well worth watching all the way through.

Sometimes the way forward is staring you in the face. I've been trying to increase cadence by speeding up my recovery, maybe exiting slightly earlier... with not a thought to speeding up the catch phase. "Video I" was an eye-opener. Loads to learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anixwBs6Jh4

Kurt_Godel

This is probably the most useful set of vids on swimming I've yet seen. Thanks to zico for sending the link, its been very helpful in pulling a lot of ideas and notions together. Perfect January viewing!
Notes I took during the viewing (things that stood out in my mind):

Six fundamentals of swimming:
1. Education
2. Training
3. Technique
4. Strength
5. Physchology
6. Nutrition

BE2- "Breathe every 2 strokes training or racing"
BE3- "You can train like that sometimes to balance mechanics"

Rotation- "Fuggetabouddit"

Foundation to swimming:
-hold our bodies well in the water
-have a taut boudy (for balance)
-allignment
-swimming is linear
-keep the head in line with the spine
-stroke rate 80+ strokes per minute
-point toes inward for greater propulsion/less drag

Drills- "don't do them" (speaking about swimming/kicking on your side)
Drills that are good include snorkle, pb, band, fins; anything that keeps you taut and teaches allignment. They're done to create muscle memory of good stroke. Take them off and you'll swim 6 strokes good (before deteriorating). Soon 8 strokes good, then 10, then... until you don't need them.

Sets- "at least one 90 min set a week"
90 mins can be spent as:
10/20 mins WU
10 easy swim
10-15 pb/snorkle/band/kick (mechanics)
Main set 4x1000 (or 4x800, 4x600 for weaker swimmers) as:
4x250pb (20s rest) progression effort 70/75/80/85%+
10x100 fastest you can swim consistent with 3/5s rest between. You should be on the anaerobic threshold.
2x500 pb/snorkle/band/kick (mechanics) 75% effort; 30s rest between
10x100 90% effort, 30s+ rest between

25m pool better than a 50m pools because first 2 strokes off wall are perfect, and a 25m pool has twice the number of times you can become perfect, taut and alligned (and then you depreciate).

"Consistency is the key to success"

If swim is your weakness (of S/B/R) you need to spend a disproportionate amount of time to improve... spend 35/40% weekly training time swimming (in Feb).

Catch should be fast (as shown in video I), that is where the high turnover rate comes from. Most triathletes arm spends 30-70% longer underwater than fast swimmers.

Breathing- if a guy gets a beard rub on his shoulder, he is a late breather.

Day-to-day training:
-no weights
-use resistance bands instead and mimic the swim stroke
-build swim specific strength
-core exercises are useful

Racing:
-always get in the water before the race
-always do a swim warm-up
-if you can't get in the water bring some resistance bands and use these to warm-up.

MalDoc

Green&Red wrote: »

I'll have a check on the wetsuit this evening PK, I can't think off the top of my head

Thanks for the answers, its something I'd like to improve on because I think it would make me a better swimmer but I've always been happy with my wetsuit swims so I can't complain (too much anyway!)

Maldoc suggested video analysis which i'll probably do and the balance exercises are a good plan, theres no harm in trying them and see if they improve me!

Throw the kitchen sink at the problem.

This will be my 4th year in triathlon.

I swam a lot when I was young, think it was seal swimming or something like that. Never enjoyed it, aside from the odd breast stroke width.

Got lessons as an adult and was told within the first 5 mins that if I was on the titanic I would breast stroke my way to safety. Great I thought, no hope for triathlon.

A few years later a very good coach told me I'll make you a swimmer in 10 years. This really drove home how difficult it is and the work I had to do.

I've read a silly number of swimming related articles and constantly think how can I improve.

Video Analysis was a light bulb moment for me but I'm under no illusions that I'll be at least another 3 years before I can swim under 25 minutes open water and bike/run off the back of it.

Be boring it it was easy though right

Great thread!

JEmily

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

This is probably the most useful set of vids on swimming I've yet seen. Thanks to zico for sending the link, its been very helpful in pulling a lot of ideas and notions together. Perfect January viewing!
Notes I took during the viewing (things that stood out in my mind):

Six fundamentals of swimming:
1. Education
2. Training
3. Technique
4. Strength
5. Physchology
6. Nutrition

BE2- "Breathe every 2 strokes training or racing"
BE3- "You can train like that sometimes to balance mechanics"

Rotation- "Fuggetabouddit"

Foundation to swimming:
-hold our bodies well in the water
-have a taut boudy (for balance)
-allignment
-swimming is linear
-keep the head in line with the spine
-stroke rate 80+ strokes per minute
-point toes inward for greater propulsion/less drag

Drills- "don't do them" (speaking about swimming/kicking on your side)
Drills that are good include snorkle, pb, band, fins; anything that keeps you taut and teaches allignment. They're done to create muscle memory of good stroke. Take them off and you'll swim 6 strokes good (before deteriorating). Soon 8 strokes good, then 10, then... until you don't need them.

Sets- "at least one 90 min set a week"
90 mins can be spent as:
10/20 mins WU
10 easy swim
10-15 pb/snorkle/band/kick (mechanics)
Main set 4x1000 (or 4x800, 4x600 for weaker swimmers) as:
4x250pb (20s rest) progression effort 70/75/80/85%+
10x100 fastest you can swim consistent with 3/5s rest between. You should be on the anaerobic threshold.
2x500 pb/snorkle/band/kick (mechanics) 75% effort; 30s rest between
10x100 90% effort, 30s+ rest between

25m pool better than a 50m pools because first 2 strokes off wall are perfect, and a 25m pool has twice the number of times you can become perfect, taut and alligned (and then you depreciate).

"Consistency is the key to success"

If swim is your weakness (of S/B/R) you need to spend a disproportionate amount of time to improve... spend 35/40% weekly training time swimming (in Feb).

Catch should be fast (as shown in video I), that is where the high turnover rate comes from. Most triathletes arm spends 30-70% longer underwater than fast swimmers.

Breathing- if a guy gets a beard rub on his shoulder, he is a late breather.

Day-to-day training:
-no weights
-use resistance bands instead and mimic the swim stroke
-build swim specific strength
-core exercises are useful

Racing:
-always get in the water before the race
-always do a swim warm-up
-if you can't get in the water bring some resistance bands and use these to warm-up.

Why do we have to breathe every 2 strokes, so is breathing every 3 wrong???

sconhome

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

25m pool better than a 50m pools because first 2 strokes off wall are perfect, and a 25m pool has twice the number of times you can become perfect, taut and alligned (and then you depreciate).

This I like ^^.

Swimming in a 20m pool so I'm 2.5 times better off than the 50m

Interesting about stroke rate at 80+ not a chance with my gammy shoulder. I'd be popping and clicking so much you'd think there was a pod of dolphins in the pool.

peter kern

JEmily wrote: »

Why do we have to breathe every 2 strokes, so is breathing every 3 wrong???

its not wrong but when you go really fast over 50 meter its not really possible. (oxygen intake)
if you go steady by all means breath every third if that flaots your boat.