Why do you hate Irish?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The King of Moo wrote: »

By "being taught well" I'm referring to the bread-and-butter teaching in the classroom. It's tough to change how we teach languages in general in English-speaking countries because we don't encounter other languages much in our day-to-day lives, we don't tend to be taught much of English grammar (knowing your own grammar really helps to learn that of other languages) and have little experience of having to speak other languages.
So we don't do a lot of speaking practice and independent production, and can't get our heads around foreign tenses because we don't know the names of our own.

If we look at how English-language schools here, and secondary schools on the continent teach languages, and subsequently change the way we train language teachers, we'll see a big change in students' language ability.
That's easier said than done though, as it would mean having to step outside the way we think of language for a lot of people.

This is the problem: other countries teach second languages as lanaguges and communication tools, Ireland doesn't. There seems to be a fundamental sybborness on the apart of the language enthusiasts in this regard.

Encountering Irish outside the classroom (and there a lot of opportunities for that: TV and Radio stations, and thousands of publicly visible examples of often complex Irish) is an important bonus to that teaching, and teachers should manoeuvre students towards doing so, but it has to be made engaging and comprehensible in the classroom first. That's good teaching.

Been saying that all along. But it is a mistake to take English-langauge kids program and throw them out in Irish.

Someone needs to sit down with top Irish kids writers, get them to produce something, and then translate it into Irish and produce it with Irish as the original langauge.

It boild down to practically again. Kids are practical, and when you're and English speaking child, Irish simply is not a practical langauge


So to recap (from combined posts): why do people not like Irish?

- as kids, being arrogantly told that the SHOULD learn it no reason other than compulsion
- as adults' being arrogantly told that it's part of their culture and that they should WANT to feel more Irish
- being blamed for when you don't feel the or agree with the posts above
- it's simple not a practical language if your mother-tongue is English;
and, from a long-term point of view
- there's no real desire to actually make it palatable from those who have the repsonsibility to male this so

LordSutch

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

But I wasn't and more than likely that won't be changed so it's pretty much the same argument as the one about Irish.

Therin lies the perpetual argument, does the State really want us to be a bilingual country? or is the Irish language to carry on for another nine decades being taught as a 'subject' rather than a living breathing spoken language?

Tweaking the curriculum every ten years or so just hasn't worked ,,,

So what hasn't been tried?

Obviously the FG idea of easing the compulsory nature of its teaching (post Inter Cert) wasn't even allowed to get off the ground >>> http://www.irishcentral.com/news/fine-gaels-proposal-to-make-the-irish-language-optional-at-school-is-rejected-see-poll-116221609-237369721.html

So the 'status quo' remains, with "Irish as our 1st official language", even though we still don't speak it in any large numbers (and its usage is shrinking in the West) :cool:

Like a ninety year old merry go round we're all stuck on, which we & our children just can't get off.

I don't hate Irish, but perennial argunments still abound re the farcical teaching of + the pretense that its our natural collective spoken language.

I wonder what Brussels thinks re all those translations

user.name

I'm only out of school about three years and I couldn't tell you anything I knew in Irish only the typical Irish phrases most Irish people know. I hated the language because I couldn't understand its structure. For me it was just a collective of phrases thrown together. When I learnt German I hated all those hours spent learning grammar and why that word goes there etc. But it helped me to understand how to speak it. I just needed the correct words and I can shape a sentence together. But for Irish if you forget one word in a sentence that you don't even know what it means the sentence doesn't make any sense.
That was my struggle with Irish. Is all about the way they taught it. They should teach you how to practically learn the langauge. I don't understand the need for the focus on old stories and poems. If they keep on Irish as a compulsory language in school at least teach it in a practical manner. I can tell you of a poem about working in the fields but I can't ask you about yourself :pac:

Iwasfrozen

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I completely agree with this actually. I could probably live my life in Irish through speaking, reading and listening, however I find it very difficult to understand what a lot of commentators etc are saying on TG4. Definitely because of the accents.

I also notice some people who speak perfectly normal when speaking English but on a very thick accent when speaking Irish which makes it more difficult to understand.

Quite frankly if you can't understand a language because of an accent then you're not fluent.

Shep_Dog

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

Making Irish the common language of Ireland isn't (necessarily) about isolation and separation, if that's what you're getting at. You know there are lots of bilingual nations? And the bilingual nations tend to be better at learning languages, which is one of those 'life skills' that people keep talking about.

Conradh's constitution has just one aim: to reinstate Irish as our common language. They have no interest in preserving English in any form. They talk about 'bilingualism' in their press releases but that is not a stated aim as written in their constitution. This organisation claims to represent all Irish-language enthusiasts and receives significant amounts of government money to pursue its aim.

Why do people want to bring back an isolated, monolingual, Irish-speaking Ireland?

gormdubhgorm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Quite frankly if you can't understand a language because of an accent then you're not fluent.

Exactly. But Donegal Irish goes way over my head, then again I can hardly understand Donegal people speaking English!

gormdubhgorm

The simple answer to revive Irish is:
Make all Playschool's naoiri (Irish speaking) right the way up through secondary school.
This will take away the elitism Irish schools have currently.
Ban the speaking of English with on the spot fines for the general public for a decade.
Free Irish water for any family who does not have 100 fines in a 1 year period

gormdubhgorm

I am interested in first generation Irish kids attitude to Irish.
Do they find it easy to pick up the language since they maybe already bilingual?
Is it easier to learn because there is no baggage/resentment to Irish from the parents?

smash

Even after studying it the whole way through school, I know about as much Irish as I know Latin... sweet fcuk all!

My son is having trouble with it in primary school and I obviously couldn't help him but his teachers answer to his problems was "Just use google translate for your sentences"

Wibbs

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I also notice some people who speak perfectly normal when speaking English but on a very thick accent when speaking Irish which makes it more difficult to understand.

From what I gather that can sometimes be the Irish version of the D4/Dort accent. It's a bit of an ostentation. You hear it quite a bit on TG4. Actually on the same channel a while back they had an old (70's) documentary on the Blaskets. They were focusing on one ancient bloke with a face like a weathered whelk, a man who was a 100% native speaker, who was faltering in English and hadn't learned it until he was in his teens IIRC. And yet even with my pretty appalling memory of my pretty appalling schoolboy Irish I could understand far more of what he was saying than I could the continuity announcer at either end of the programme.

Caoimhgh1n

smash wrote: »

Even after studying it the whole way through school, I know about as much Irish as I know Latin... sweet fcuk all!

My son is having trouble with it in primary school and I obviously couldn't help him but his teachers answer to his problems was "Just use google translate for your sentences"

That is a very bad thing for a teacher to say, especially considering how bad Google Translate is.

BorneTobyWilde

Irish can be ignorant with out knowing

Just now on tv3 there was a piece about adoption on the show.
Family is there and a little Chinese girl who had irish brother and sister I think
Host turns to her near end of interview and says to little girl
'' when did you realize you were different'' what a prick
Little girl looked shocked and confused and could say nothing
I was like ''what a fuccking prrick''
Nothing worse than saying to a adopted kid that she is somehow different

BorneTobyWilde

All the same, yes the blood inside of me is inside of you!

smash

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

That is a very bad thing for a teacher to say, especially considering how bad Google Translate is.

If the teachers couldn't even be bothered then you can't expect the students to be. It needs to be scrapped as a compulsory subject after junior school, and the junior school Irish grades should not be considered when a pupil is being assessed for what class levels they should attend in senior school unless they intend on continuing the language.

Caoimhgh1n

smash wrote: »

If the teachers couldn't even be bothered then you can't expect the students to be. It needs to be scrapped as a compulsory subject after junior school, and the junior school Irish grades should not be considered when a pupil is being assessed for what class levels they should attend in senior school unless they intend on continuing the language.

There are plenty of unemployed teachers out there that have a passion for the language. Sadly, lots of children don't get teachers who have a passion for Irish.

smash

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

There are plenty of unemployed teachers out there that have a passion for the language. Sadly, lots of children don't get teachers who have a passion for Irish.

I think it's even more sad that children are forced to learn it when it is in fact completely useless.

Iwasfrozen

Irish needs another spelling reform to get rid of all the redundant letters. Some words are ridiculous.

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Irish needs another spelling reform to get rid of all the redundant letters. Some words are ridiculous.

It most certainly does not, the words are not hard to pronounce once you learn off all the sounds.

smash

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

It most certainly does not, the words are not hard to pronounce once you learn off all the sounds.

If you know how to clear your throat then you're able to speak Irish.

shane7218

I hate Irish because I was forced to continue struggling with it in the leaving cert when I was trying pursue A grades in applied maths and physics. The idea that someone that is mathematically/scientifically oriented and is forced to do an exam in a useless language when they are competing for points is just ridiculous. Bonus points for people who do exams in Irish is also a joke.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

It most certainly does not, the words are not hard to pronounce once you learn off all the sounds.

There are far more letters than necessary in most words.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

It most certainly does not, the words are not hard to pronounce once you learn off all the sounds.

There are far more letters than needed in most words. I know English could do with reform too but Irish is ridiculous.

Sh1tbag OToole

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There are far more letters than needed in most words. I know English could do with reform too but Irish is ridiculous.

However bad they are, French is worse. "Half the language is silent"

Are you hoping for a spelling scheme with a shannon entropy that approaches 1?

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There are far more letters than needed in most words. I know English could do with reform too but Irish is ridiculous.

That is the way the language works, and they do help in the pronunciation.

Magico Gonzalez

shane7218 wrote: »

I hate Irish because I was forced to continue struggling with it in the leaving cert when I was trying pursue A grades in applied maths and physics. The idea that someone that is mathematically/scientifically oriented and is forced to do an exam in a useless language when they are competing for points is just ridiculous. Bonus points for people who do exams in Irish is also a joke.

I don't hate Irish at all, but the post above illustrates perfectly the folly of forcing kids to study the language which causes them to resent it and avoid it later in life.

It should be optional post junior cert. It should not be mandatory for public sector employment. Bonus points for using the language in an exam is prejudicial to those who do not excel in learning language. The whole forced integration of the language does it more damage than letting it survive on it's own 2 feet.

I have no issue with funding, it's forcing people to study it (who then generally later reject or walk away from it) that annoys me.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

That is the way the language works, and they do help in the pronunciation.

"That's the way the language works" What does that mean? Most words have more letters than they need to show pronunciation that's why it needs to be reformed again.

Irish also needs a standard spoken dialect. Similar to high German.

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

"That's the way the language works" What does that mean? Most words have more letters than they need to show pronunciation that's why it needs to be reformed again.

Irish also needs a standard spoken dialect. Similar to high German.

Irish does have a standard dialect, but people like to use their own dialects.

smash

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Irish also needs a standard spoken dialect. Similar to high German.

This will never happen. Gaeilgeoirí are known to be and intolerable obnoxious condescending bunch. They'll never agree with anyone.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Irish does have a standard dialect, but people like to use their own dialects.

Standard spoken dialect? I wasn't aware. That should be the only dialect taught in schools.

That along with the afermentioned spelling reform would increase uptake.

Iwasfrozen

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

However bad they are, French is worse. "Half the language is silent"

Are you hoping for a spelling scheme with a shannon entropy that approaches 1?

I'm sorry, what?