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Is IRFU policy against a person's rights?

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    #182
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Irish based players are at an advantage for selection without there needing to be any explicit policy.

    And a policy doesn't need to be "explicit" in order to be a policy.


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    #183
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    You're going metaphysical on this now.

    I'm a believer in "if it can't measured it doesn't exist" myself

    I don't think the ECJ are quite so laissez faire unfortunately


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    #184
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,037 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    And thus the myriad of cases to this effect.....

    Oh wait.


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    #185
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    That doesn't mean there isn't one in place. It'll be interesting to see what happens if/when JJ becomes Northampton's full time starting 10.
    I would imagine he'll be given a shot. I can't see any reason to ignore him if he's playing well and could be the answer to the question as to who succeeds Sexton.

    I was at Stade de France when Eoin Reddan got his first senior cap for Ireland and he was almost a full season at Wasps then. JJ could well be called into the Irish training camp this 6N.


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    #186
    alias no.9
    Registered Users Posts: 6,266 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Go ahead then. Show me where the IRFU have said they don't implement a policy of preferring players based domestically over players based overseas.

    Given that in the eyes of the EU, the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom (of which Northern Ireland is a constituent part) are different countries, the IRFU is already a transnational organisation with employees and operations in both the ROI and the UK, their acceptance and even promotion of the inclusion of individuals from/resident in different jurisdictions in their representative teams is beyond question.

    This whole thing is silly season nonsense.

    Editing...
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    That doesn't mean there isn't one in place. It'll be interesting to see what happens if/when JJ becomes Northampton's full time starting 10.

    In the eyes of the EU, Belfast and Northampton are the same Country so there's no discrimination based on country of residence.


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    #187
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    alias no.9 wrote: »
    Given that in the eyes of the EU, the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom (of which Northern Ireland is a constituent part) are different countries, the IRFU is already a transnational organisation with employees and operations in both the ROI and the UK, their acceptance and even promotion of the inclusion of individuals from/resident in different jurisdictions in their representative teams is beyond question.

    This whole thing is silly season nonsense.

    Editing...



    In the eyes of the EU, Belfast and Northampton are the same Country so there's no discrimination based on country of residence.

    The IRFU aren't based in Belfast.

    You can't just get away with infringements because you respect these rights most of the time. If you're disincentivising any individuals from moving to any other member states, not just the UK, the courts could interpret that as illegal.


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    #188
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    I would imagine he'll be given a shot. I can't see any reason to ignore him if he's playing well and could be the answer to the question as to who succeeds Sexton.

    I was at Stade de France when Eoin Reddan got his first senior cap for Ireland and he was almost a full season at Wasps then. JJ could well be called into the Irish training camp this 6N.

    Eoin Reddan was a long time ago at this stage.

    I can't see any reason to ignore JJ either, I agree with you. Apart of course, as Cummiskey said: "The problem for the union is that if he, or JJ Hanrahan who appears to have settled at Northampton, are picked on form for Ireland, there is no reason why more players in a similar situation won’t take the opportunity to earn as much as they possibly can abroad in the ever-shortening career that is professional rugby."


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    #189
    alias no.9
    Registered Users Posts: 6,266 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The IRFU aren't based in Belfast.

    You can't just get away with infringements because you respect these rights most of the time. If you're disincentivising any individuals from moving to any other member states, not just the UK, the courts could interpret that as illegal.

    They have subsidiary operations there called Ulster Rugby. In your hypothetical exclusion of JJ, I'd like to propose Paddy Jackson as the player who makes the team, show me how the EU could possibly even consider that as being anything to do with free movement of people?


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    #190
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    alias no.9 wrote: »
    They have subsidiary operations there called Ulster Rugby. In your hypothetical exclusion of JJ, I'd like to propose Paddy Jackson as the player who makes the team, show me how the EU could possibly even consider that as being anything to do with free movement of people?

    It doesn't matter who makes the team ahead of him. The point isn't about making the team at all, that comes afterwards. The point is that if you are considering different employment opportunities and you are being disincentivised from moving to another state by actions which are disproportionate, beyond what is absolutely necessary, then that could be impacting on your rights to find employment which are protected under the article. Paddy Jackson never comes into it.


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    #191
    alias no.9
    Registered Users Posts: 6,266 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    It doesn't matter who makes the team ahead of him. The point isn't about making the team at all, that comes afterwards. The point is that if you are considering different employment opportunities and you are being disincentivised from moving to another state by actions which are disproportionate, beyond what is absolutely necessary, then that could be impacting on your rights to find employment which are protected under the article. Paddy Jackson never comes into it.

    It absolutely does matter in your JJ example if the player picked ahead of him is also resident in the UK. There is no discrimination in the eyes of the EU on the basis of country of residence.


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    #192
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Eoin Reddan was a long time ago at this stage.

    I can't see any reason to ignore JJ either, I agree with you. Apart of course, as Cummiskey said: "The problem for the union is that if he, or JJ Hanrahan who appears to have settled at Northampton, are picked on form for Ireland, there is no reason why more players in a similar situation won’t take the opportunity to earn as much as they possibly can abroad in the ever-shortening career that is professional rugby."

    The way to deal with that is with incentives that make it harder to go abroad. Not with disincentives. Successive Irish coaches have selected foreign-based players, going back as far as Warren Gatland. Simon Easterby never played in Ireland yet got 65 caps for Ireland.

    Most people would accept that JJ didn't move to Northampton primarily for the money. Jonny Sexton clearly did and the IRFU dealt with that issue by introducing the salary top-up to assist provinces in holding onto key players. Madigan has left for the best money he could get, but his career development was as much a motivation as the money.

    It's never a simple equation and we'll never be able to prevent players from leaving. Leaving the door open for a return is just as important.


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    #193
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    alias no.9 wrote: »
    It absolutely does matter in your JJ example if the player picked ahead of him is also resident in the UK. There is no discrimination in the eyes of the EU on the basis of country of residence.

    No, it's not about international selection. You're missing the point here.


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    #194
    alias no.9
    Registered Users Posts: 6,266 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    No, it's not about international selection. You're missing the point here.

    It can only be about discrimination on the basis of country of residence. With ongoing examples of UK residents being selected and the recent example if Sexton when he was French resident, what's left, was Dave Ryan discriminated against in his days at Zebre?

    The EU doesn't care about internal boundaries. In JJs case you may as well be arguing that he's being ignored because he's from Kerry citing the lack of selection of a Kerryman since Mick Galwey, but the EU couldn't care any more than when he's UK resident and other UK residents make the squad in his stead.


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    #195
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    alias no.9 wrote: »
    It can only be about discrimination on the basis of country of residence. With ongoing examples of UK residents being selected and the recent example if Sexton when he was French resident, what's left, was Dave Ryan discriminated against in his days at Zebre?

    The EU doesn't care about internal boundaries. In JJs case you may as well be arguing that he's being ignored because he's from Kerry citing the lack of selection of a Kerryman since Mick Galwey, but the EU couldn't care any more than when he's UK resident and other UK residents make the squad in his stead.
    The point he's making (if I'm not mistaken) is that the guy who would have the case to make is one who stayed in the country and lost out on a more lucrative career abroad for fear of losing his international place.

    The guy who actually moved abroad is a different matter.


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    #196
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,037 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Those are economic choices made be people every single day.

    Every decision to change job, change employer etc had an economic cost.


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    #197
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,907 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    Despite the fact that the only use of the word 'policy' was in the editorialised part of the article you're now moving the goalposts to 'Yes Minister' like proportions: "It's not true until it's officially denied". :D

    They'd be just as mad to adopt such a policy as I pointed out. The evidence that they haven't goes back over a decade:

    Simon Easterby
    Eoin Reddan (got his first cap after he moved to Wasps)
    Tommy Bowe
    Bob Casey
    Jonny Sexton


    How is it a straw man argument to quote the thread title and the article in the newspaper that prompted it? I have read both and all of this thread. You on the other hand didn't fully read the article until four pages into this thread.

    And I'm not trying to argue whether or not the IRFU can be proven to have implemented this policy. They have already said they don't. You on the other hand have been trying to do exactly that.





    So the straw man is yours.

    It's not just :-

    "The evidence that they haven't goes back over a decade:"
    but over decades.

    "Simon Easterby
    Eoin Reddan (got his first cap after he moved to Wasps)
    Tommy Bowe
    Bob Casey
    Jonny Sexton"

    David Humphreys
    Keith Wood
    Jim Staples
    Simon Geogeghan
    Nick Popplewell
    Simon Mason
    Paul Wallace
    Johnny Bell
    Alan Clarke
    Eric Millar
    Niall Woods
    Rob Henderson
    Kevin Maggs
    Justin Bishop

    were all capped while playing in England


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    #198
    alias no.9
    Registered Users Posts: 6,266 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    The point he's making (if I'm not mistaken) is that the guy who would have the case to make is one who stayed in the country and lost out on a more lucrative career abroad for fear of losing his international place.

    The guy who actually moved abroad is a different matter.

    Even less of a case for that. All employment choices require you to forego other options. I can't take on work tomorrow that will interfere with my current job without either resigning my current job or negotiation significant changes with my current employer. If anything the case would be against a club team in another country who would not be prepared to make the player available for international training camps.


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    #199
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    It's nothing short of hilarious to think that the case of Ian Madigan shows issues with regard the free movement of people when he has actually moved. And despite that the IRFU have stated clearly that while it puts him at an obvious disadvantage in terms of the national team it doesn't preclude him from selection. Yet somehow there's an issue. It's genuinely funny.


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    #200
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    molloyjh wrote: »
    It's nothing short of hilarious to think that the case of Ian Madigan shows issues with regard the free movement of people when he has actually moved. And despite that the IRFU have stated clearly that while it puts him at an obvious disadvantage in terms of the national team it doesn't preclude him from selection. Yet somehow there's an issue. It's genuinely funny.

    I don't think anyone who has posted in this thread has actually said that. But apart from that it's a stupendously fine misrepresentation of the point.


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    #201
    Slideshowbob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭Slideshowbob


    The lure of abroad continues yet IRFU still bias against them?

    Gerry Thornley: How the Irish provinces have hit a brick wall
    via The Irish Times
    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-how-the-irish-provinces-have-hit-a-brick-wall-1.2647086

    'We're not bank of last resort' - IRFU warning after confirming each province will get €1m http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-rugby/were-not-bank-of-last-resort-irfu-warning-after-confirming-each-province-will-get-1m-34710655.html


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