UPDATED: Buses not to be banned from College Green

Yakuza

Buses which are currently diverted may stay diverted, but no outright bus ban planned: See audio here: http://www.newstalk.com/Some-bus-routes-may-be-banned-from-Dublins-College-Green-due-to-new-Luas-line

-- Moderator

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ORIGINAL OPENING POST:
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Read the latest "idea" from DCC:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/buses-may-be-banned-from-college-green-due-to-luas-1.2478056

The Irish Times wrote:

Buses may have to be banned from Dublin’s College Green to facilitate the new Luas Cross City line, a move which would significantly increase bus passengers’ journey times.
The Dublin City Centre Transport Study, published last June, proposed excluding private cars and taxis from the area in front of Trinity College and the historic Bank of Ireland building, one of the most congested traffic thoroughfares in the city.
However, Dublin City Council chief executive Owen Keegan said restrictions on traffic using College Green may also have to be extended to buses, because of engineering difficulties and the possibility of delays to trams.

Proposing to ban cars and taxis from there 24/7 is sheer madness, and now they want to add buses into the mix?

And what about the people that the new LUAS doesn't suit? To hell with them? How in the hell can a body that is mostly unelected have so much sway in matters that affect many tens of not hundreds of thousands of people?

Tow

Once you see the name Owen Keegan, you know it is just pie in the sky.

LXFlyer

This will not happen - the impact on bus routes would be far too negative.

Someone needs to remind Owen Keegan that far more people use the buses that go through College Green than the Green Line will ever carry.

CarrickMcJoe

Does this mean the Gardaí will be handing out on the spot fines to bus drivers too?

hmmm

This has been an obvious problem ever since cross city luas was mooted. Why is this being discussed only now?

zl1whqvjs75cdy

hmmm wrote: »

This has been an obvious problem ever since cross city luas was mooted. Why is this being discussed only now?

Because Ireland

Spanish Eyes

Keegan was just on Newstalk. He confirmed that buses that currently use College Green will still use that corridor.

But those buses for example -that were diverted around Pearse Street instead of down Nassau/Suffolk Streets may not be returned to their original routes.

At least that is what I got from what he said. So maybe things are not as bad as first glance?

magicbastarder

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Because Ireland

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2014/09/23/typical-ireland-says-man-regardless-of-what-he-is-complaining-about/

cdebru

A badly written article from the Irish times designed to grab attention because f all else is happening this week.

It's fairly obvious buses won't be able to return to the Dawson St/ Nassau St turn so its about finding another way to route them if possible to them return to Suffolk street, if not they will continue as present down Westland row.

The only surprising thing is that a full plan wasn't developed before this got the go ahead, its a bit late in the day to be working out possible re routing of bus routes.

LXFlyer

What annoys me is that a full plan outlining the changes to bus routes wasn't a requirement at the Bord Pleanála hearings.

Given the impact this could have on journey times it should have been a requirement at the time rather than as an afterthought.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

What annoys me is that a full plan outlining the changes to bus routes wasn't a requirement at the Bord Plean la hearings.

Given the impact this could have on journey times it should have been a requirement at the time rather than as an afterthought.

Exactly. The planning hearing should have included the final or near final street layouts too -- you can't judge how access, walking, cycling, buses, parking etc will be affected until you get to that stage.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Keegan was just on Newstalk. He confirmed that buses that currently use College Green will still use that corridor.

But those buses for example -that were diverted around Pearse Street instead of down Nassau/Suffolk Streets may not be returned to their original routes.

At least that is what I got from what he said. So maybe things are not as bad as first glance?

Thanks for posting that.

hmmm wrote: »

This has been an obvious problem ever since cross city luas was mooted. Why is this being discussed only now?

Add your reply here.

Because the RPA were allowed to stay hush hush on the impact of Luas cross city.

Yakuza wrote: »

Proposing to ban cars and taxis from there 24/7 is sheer madness, and now they want to add buses into the mix?

How do you think cars, trams, buses, bicycles and people on foot we're going to fit in the pinch points?

Spanish Eyes

I wonder also, if Westbound buses that currently take a right into Westmoreland Street (thus crossing the new Luas tracks) and then up the South Quays would use Tara Street and Burgh Quay instead?

That would surely ease some congestion. The sheer number of buses on Westmoreland Street - DB, Airport coaches etc. is a sight to behold.

Just throwing it out anyway.

AlekSmart

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Because Ireland

Accurate enough !

Owen Keegan is one of those administrators whose name just keeps on surfacing......usually with very little to actually contribute,other than wild-eyed madness....(See the cuurrent tumbleweed'd state of Dun Laoighre for confirmation).

Yet again,a Senior DCC official aided and abetted by a compliant Irish Times,gets away with ignoring the very basic issue surounding ALL modes of Public Transport (INCLUDING Owen's very own Dublin Cycles) in the City.

THERE IS NO ROOM FOR THE CURRENT LEVEL OF ACCESS,AND THROUGHPUT,FOR PRIVATE MOTOR VEHICLES IN THE CITY-CENTRE.


Mr Keegan chooses to ignore,and is not questioned on,the issue of Multi-Storey Car Parks within the Inner Canal Ring.

He,and his "Professional" advisers can use all of the crayons,paper and post-it's they like,but unless they address the Multi-Storey Car Park issue,then ALL Public Transport based solutions for Dublin City-Centre will remain hugely compromised and doomed to limp-along failure.

Arnotts.
Ilac
Marlborough Street
Jervis Street
Irish Life Centre
Parnell Centre
Setanta
Brown Thomas
Dawson Street........

ALL of which MUST have full access maintained no matter what...Owen Keegan and his DCC know damn well the noose the Car Park Operators have around Dublin City Centtre's neck,and these guys will not be slow about tightening it,with the full backing of the Courts,should Owen or any of his pals threaten their "Livelyhoods"......(Loosley translated as Licence to print Money).

Until DCC is prepared to come clean in public about this problem,then they should STFU !!! :mad:

AlekSmart

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I wonder also, if Westbound buses that currently take a right into Westmoreland Street (thus crossing the new Luas tracks) and then up the South Quays would use Tara Street and Burgh Quay instead?

That would surely ease some congestion. The sheer number of buses on Westmoreland Street - DB, Airport coaches etc. is a sight to behold.

Just throwing it out anyway.

Very True....and dont forget the maintenance of "access" to The Temple Bar multi-storey while yer there ....

stop

The majority of graphics published on the Luas Cross City twitter account seem to related to how to get to Car Parks, shows where the priorities lie on the biggest public transport infrastructure project.

Spanish Eyes

AlekSmart wrote: »

Very True....and dont forget the maintenance of "access" to The Temple Bar multi-storey while yer there ....

I think cars are being stopped from going any further down Dame Street than Anglesea Street anyway, so if they reverse the one way down Fleet Street, job sorted for access to TB car park.

AlekSmart

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I think cars are being stopped from going any further down Dame Street than Anglesea Street anyway, so if they reverse the one way down Fleet Street, job sorted for access to TB car park.

I love an Optimist

393 spaces @ €3.20 per space-per hour,open 24 hours...all in all a nice little earner ?

Spanish Eyes

AlekSmart wrote: »

I love an Optimist

393 spaces @ €3.20 per space-per hour,open 24 hours...all in all a nice little earner ?

Ya have to be pragmatic sometimes, lol.... and at least this will stop cars needing to go down Westmoreland Street to access the car park. But I'm not sure if that drastic action is in "The Plan". But I sure hope it is.

Anyone know if cars are to be banned from Westmoreland Street. The online information is patchy at best.

KD345

lxflyer wrote: »

What annoys me is that a full plan outlining the changes to bus routes wasn't a requirement at the Bord Pleanála hearings.

Given the impact this could have on journey times it should have been a requirement at the time rather than as an afterthought.

It really is hard to understand.

Take the 46a northbound as an example, it potentially will need to cross the Luas tracks at Stephen's Green, the bottom of Dawson Street, Pearse Sreeet Garda Station, Westmoreland Street, O'Connell Street (red line) and finally at Parnell Square. That's 6 points with priority for frequent trams which have the potential to add extra time to the bus route. There will also be additional pedestrian crossings along these stretches which will add delays.

Dublin City Council seriously need to improve bus travel in Dublin. It's all very well having a good QBC running along the N11 but it means nothing if passengers have to endure a winding tour of the city centre just to get across the town. Bus passenger numbers are rising and the fleet is increasing in size. Every effort needs to be made to make bus travel attractive.

strandroad

KD345 wrote: »

Dublin City Council seriously need to improve bus travel in Dublin. It's all very well having a good QBC running along the N11 but it means nothing if passengers have to endure a winding tour of the city centre just to get across the town. Bus passenger numbers are rising and the fleet is increasing in size. Every effort needs to be made to make bus travel attractive.

It's just desk chairs on the Titanic, bus based system is wildly insufficient in the city this size, especially with its narrow historical layout, two pitiful tram lines nothwithstanding. It's like wanting to change the laws of physics - there's no space on the surface!

Nothing will change until a proper underground system is created between the canals and possibly beyond. Until then it's just pointless squabbling...

Yakuza

monument wrote: »

How do you think cars, trams, buses, bicycles and people on foot were going to fit in the pinch points?

Firstly, thanks to you and the other posters that clarified the article and linked to the newstalk podcast, I'm out of the country at the moment with sporadic access to the internet (and none to Irish radio).

I'd have no issue with the banning of private cars from Mon-Fri between 0700 and 1900 that currently exists, were it persist into the future, but a blanket 24/7 ban (even extended to buses and taxis) in the area would be unnecessarily draconian in my opinion. I often pass through there in my car during the wee hours, I prefer it to the quays.

cgcsb

Don't see the point in banning cars 24/7 when the luas is not a 24 hour service and Dublin doesn't have a 24 bus service for some reason.

Spanish Eyes

cgcsb wrote: »

Don't see the point in banning cars 24/7 when the luas is not a 24 hour service and Dublin doesn't have a 24 bus service for some reason.

There are lots of buslanes throughout Dublin that have 24 hr restriction. Even though buses finish in the main at midnight or thereabouts and don't start until 630.am or so.

It is prepping. Getting people used to the idea that the city centre is for PT, cyclists and pedestrians.

You know, those who have been neglected for SO LONG now!

Carawaystick

Owen Keegan must be jealous of John Tierney's infamy...

Regarding Alek's point on car parks, until the Leinster house car park situation is resolved, the govt will not take pt seriously

The planning board are a joke too for not imposing conditions for traffic management at this junction. They were too concerned about the second stop on Dawson st to notice I presume

Spanish Eyes

Carawaystick wrote: »

Owen Keegan must be jealous of John Tierney's infamy...

Regarding Alek's point on car parks, until the Leinster house car park situation is resolved, the govt will not take pt seriously

The planning board are a joke too for not imposing conditions for traffic management at this junction. They were too concerned about the second stop on Dawson st to notice I presume

Ah that's all irish WATER under the bridge anyway!

Seesee

Why do all our buses have to pass through the city centre anyway. This is a very good reflection of our chaotic bus route system which could do with an update.
http://youtu.be/KVjkFq-7Y6A

LXFlyer

Seesee wrote: »

Why do all our buses have to pass through the city centre anyway. This is a very good reflection of our chaotic bus route system which could do with an update.
http://youtu.be/KVjkFq-7Y6A

Bizarrely that's where people actually want to go to. Without an underground rail network, the bus routes still remain the principal form of public transport in and out of the city and as such need to serve the city centre.

We've just had an overhaul of the bus network with the Network Direct project - the Minister has already indicated that attention will focus on developing orbital bus routes that don't serve the city centre in 2016.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

cgcsb wrote: »

Don't see the point in banning cars 24/7 when the luas is not a 24 hour service and Dublin doesn't have a 24 bus service for some reason.

Agreed. How are you supposed to get around after 12 in the city of they go ahead with an all out ban.

Marcusm

Tow wrote: »

Once you see the name Owen Keegan, you know it is just pie in the sky.

It was such an idiotic comment that I assume it must have eliminated what little credibility he had left. If it is the case that the frequency of the cross city Luas will impact this badly on cross city buses then it should have been properly considered at the planning stage to commence diversions of affected routes now before the laying of tracks - realistically it should have been sorted before any of the works started. Indeed it may have been fully considered in which case he is even worse than I thought, is uninformed about one of the most disruptive projects in HIS city!

Marcusm

cgcsb wrote: »

Don't see the point in banning cars 24/7 when the luas is not a 24 hour service and Dublin doesn't have a 24 bus service for some reason.

There is limited need outside the operational hours; it should be lifted for access and/or deliveries. Otherwise, the best way to educate is to exclude completely.

fr336

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Because Ireland

Yeah...we never get stupidity from our authorities in the UK (Southern England specifically), everything is swell :)

LXFlyer

KD345 wrote: »

It really is hard to understand.

Take the 46a northbound as an example, it potentially will need to cross the Luas tracks at Stephen's Green, the bottom of Dawson Street, Pearse Sreeet Garda Station, Westmoreland Street, O'Connell Street (red line) and finally at Parnell Square. That's 6 points with priority for frequent trams which have the potential to add extra time to the bus route. There will also be additional pedestrian crossings along these stretches which will add delays.

Dublin City Council seriously need to improve bus travel in Dublin. It's all very well having a good QBC running along the N11 but it means nothing if passengers have to endure a winding tour of the city centre just to get across the town. Bus passenger numbers are rising and the fleet is increasing in size. Every effort needs to be made to make bus travel attractive.

Personally, having thought about this further, I think that this is a load of hot air from Owen Keegan. I would remain of the opinion that the section between Dawson Street and Grafton Street can still be shared between LUAS and buses from Leeson Street (Rathmines routes will remain operating via Georges Street and Camden Street).


There's not going to be any bus stops between D'Olier Street and Nassau Street southbound, and between Dawson Street and Westmoreland Street northbound, so the only thing that will slow down buses will be traffic lights.


I really don't see why the status quo southbound can't be maintained, and the Leeson Street routes northbound reverting to Nassau Street and Grafton Street albeit with trams getting priority. At the very least I think that the core routes (11, 46a, 39a, 145 and Xpresso) should share space northbound with the trams - the other routes (37, 38/a/b/d, 39 and 70) could in theory re-route via Merrion Square.


Buses would not be crossing over both the northbound and southbound LUAS lines, just staying on one and slotting in between trams.


Not routing buses via Dawson Street northbound and Nassau Street southbound would create a very large hole in the network in the city centre and would be a very retrograde step in terms of public transport provision there.

LXFlyer

Marcusm wrote: »

There is limited need outside the operational hours; it should be lifted for access and/or deliveries. Otherwise, the best way to educate is to exclude completely.

Trams will be operating from 05:00 to 00:30 (leaving the terminal stop) which means in practice that there will probably be trams passing through the city centre between 05:00 and 01:00.

That is a very small window to leave open, and frankly I don't see any point in doing so. It just creates confusion as the current bus gate does with some motorists just continuing to ignore it.

LXFlyer

Marcusm wrote: »

It was such an idiotic comment that I assume it must have eliminated what little credibility he had left. If it is the case that the frequency of the cross city Luas will impact this badly on cross city buses then it should have been properly considered at the planning stage to commence diversions of affected routes now before the laying of tracks - realistically it should have been sorted before any of the works started. Indeed it may have been fully considered in which case he is even worse than I thought, is uninformed about one of the most disruptive projects in HIS city!

It should have been an integral part of the planning process.

This is fundamental, and given that the bus routes concerned will carry more people combined than the LUAS, you would think that it should have been investigated in detail by ABP.

I don't see how this could possibly not be a major consideration in terms of whether planning permission would be granted and it's a disgrace that we now hear these concerns being raised at this stage.

LXFlyer

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Agreed. How are you supposed to get around after 12 in the city of they go ahead with an all out ban.

The same way cars will get around during the rest of the day?

strandroad

lxflyer wrote: »

The same way cars will get around during the rest of the day?

Only easier, because there will be no other traffic...

Spanish Eyes

Well I have said it before and I will say it now again...

When the DCC Manager actually lives in, and experiences the city day to day with all its faults and failings, that is the day this city will be sorted.

Should be a minimum requirement for the job IMV.

Carawaystick

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well I have said it before and I will say it now again...

When the DCC Manager actually lives in, and experiences the city day to day with all its faults and failings, that is the day this city will be sorted.

It won't fix it, as the corpo have no power to run PT, or build any more advanced PT infrastructure than bus stops...

But It might help in some ways.



I still think, given the splitting of the tram lines, one or both should have been routed through Trinity. It's a huge roadblock on South/North communications in Dublin, as is Temple Bar, and to a lesser extent Guinnessess and the Phoenix park, which at least has one underground public transit route, albeit underused.

monument

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well I have said it before and I will say it now again...

When the DCC Manager actually lives in, and experiences the city day to day with all its faults and failings, that is the day this city will be sorted.

Should be a minimum requirement for the job IMV.

Where does Keegan live? I mean the general area and not his exact address or anything.

Marcusm

lxflyer wrote: »

Trams will be operating from 05:00 to 00:30 (leaving the terminal stop) which means in practice that there will probably be trams passing through the city centre between 05:00 and 01:00.

That is a very small window to leave open, and frankly I don't see any point in doing so. It just creates confusion as the current bus gate does with some motorists just continuing to ignore it.

I think you have misunderstood me; I was supportive of the 24/7 prohibition. I think there is little need for private cars to access that portion outside of Luas hours and to permit it would cause uncertainty.

LXFlyer

Marcusm wrote: »

I think you have misunderstood me; I was supportive of the 24/7 prohibition. I think there is little need for private cars to access that portion outside of Luas hours and to permit it would cause uncertainty.

I was agreeing with you!!


Just reinforcing your point!

snickerpuss

I was hoping the 15 would be back to some kind of normal route. If you work around Westland Row/up Pearse Street/Merrion Square there are no Northside buses. You have to walk to Central Bank. It's a bit of a pain and at least the 15 used to go down Dawson St but now every evening Dame St is jammed. You can hardly get up or down the narrow paths at 5.30. The spot at Abercrombie and Fitch is the worst.

LXFlyer

snickerpuss wrote: »

I was hoping the 15 would be back to some kind of normal route. If you work around Westland Row/up Pearse Street/Merrion Square there are no Northside buses. You have to walk to Central Bank. It's a bit of a pain and at least the 15 used to go down Dawson St but now every evening Dame St is jammed. You can hardly get up or down the narrow paths at 5.30. The spot at Abercrombie and Fitch is the worst.

Why would you walk to the Central Bank? Eden Quay, Busaras or opposite Connolly Station are all closer. Also, the 27X serves Merrion Square.

Highly unlikely that the Rathmines routes will revert back - there simply would not be the roadspace available.

That being said, I personally think one Rathmines route should operate via Westland Row and Pearse Street after the LUAS starts up.

snickerpuss

lxflyer wrote: »

Why would you walk to the Central Bank? Eden Quay, Busaras or opposite Connolly Station is closer. Also, the 27X serves Merrion Square.

Highly unlikely that the Rathmines routes will revert back - there simply would not be the roadspace available.

That being said, I personally think one Rathmines route should operate via Westland Row and Pearse Street after the LUAS starts up.

It just seems odd to me to have to walk for 15/20 min to get a bus to the Northside when you work directly in the city centre. There are only two 27Xs in the evenings one of which is arrives at 5.30 and the other at 5.45 so doesn't always suit if you need to stay even a few minutes late at work.

LXFlyer

snickerpuss wrote: »

It just seems odd to me to have to walk for 15/20 min to get a bus to the Northside when you work directly in the city centre. There are only two 27Xs in the evenings one of which is arrives at 5.30 and the other at 5.45 so doesn't always suit if you need to stay even a few minutes late at work.

Unfortunately there can't be buses in every direction from every part of the city.


There's plenty of other parts of the city that aren't linked up.


Perhaps in the future some of the Howth Road routes may extend south of the river.

nowecant

snickerpuss wrote: »

I was hoping the 15 would be back to some kind of normal route. If you work around Westland Row/up Pearse Street/Merrion Square there are no Northside buses. You have to walk to Central Bank. It's a bit of a pain and at least the 15 used to go down Dawson St but now every evening Dame St is jammed. You can hardly get up or down the narrow paths at 5.30. The spot at Abercrombie and Fitch is the worst.

The number 4 picks up under the rail bridge on Westland Row

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/4/

Amirani

Carawaystick wrote: »

I still think, given the splitting of the tram lines, one or both should have been routed through Trinity. It's a huge roadblock on South/North communications in Dublin, as is Temple Bar, and to a lesser extent Guinnessess and the Phoenix park, which at least has one underground public transit route, albeit underused.

No space available to route through Trinity.

cgcsb

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There are lots of buslanes throughout Dublin that have 24 hr restriction. Even though buses finish in the main at midnight or thereabouts and don't start until 630.am or so.

It is prepping. Getting people used to the idea that the city centre is for PT, cyclists and pedestrians.

You know, those who have been neglected for SO LONG now!

Yeahlots of prepping I'm sure we'll have a 24h service any day now.

LXFlyer

nowecant wrote: »

The number 4 picks up under the rail bridge on Westland Row

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/4/

Also routes 11, 37, 38/a/b, 39, 39a, 46a, 70 and several departures on the 120 all serve the area mentioned previously and travel to the north side.

Hardly "no" buses serving the north side.

Idbatterim

It's just desk chairs on the Titanic, bus based system is wildly insufficient in the city this size, especially with its narrow historical layout, two pitiful tram lines nothwithstanding. It's like wanting to change the laws of physics - there's no space on the surface!

I agree! Why in gods name didn't they just extend the LUAS green line to Airport and onto swords with the metro north routing (this would have connected the lines)? Simply have it surface in Ranelagh, that is the long term plan anyway. Metro north is light rail, like luas, just highly segregated trams, that are a bit longer than current ones... Actually the new ones just ordered for cross city will be 54.6 metres long, the proposed ones for metro north revised are 60m...

bk

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree! Why in gods name didn't they just extend the LUAS green line to Airport and onto swords with the metro north routing (this would have connected the lines)? Simply have it surface in Ranelagh, that is the long term plan anyway. Metro north is light rail, like luas, just highly segregated trams, that are a bit longer than current ones... Actually the new ones just ordered for cross city will be 54.6 metres long, the proposed ones for metro north revised are 60m...

I've said before that I think they made serious mistake calling it Metro North and pushing the underground aspect of it.

I think it would have greater public support if they had called it Luas North and underplayed the underground aspect of it, instead just selling it as a longer, faster Luas line that happened to go underground for part of it's route.

Everyone loves Luas and it would likely have been harder for politicians, to cancel/delay a Metro/Luas North.