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Asked to work while sick

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    #62
    esforum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    liljellytot wrote: »
    Hi, I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I'm looking for feedback on a situation.

    I rang in sick to work yesterday - I have the flu and am quite exhausted. I'm not surprised I got sick and feel run down to be honest because I have been working long hours and work is pretty stressful. Last week for example, I worked my contracted 39 hours + about 10 hours extra (unpaid). More fool me I guess...

    Anyway, I called in sick to work yesterday and my manager was fine with it. I still wasn't feeling better today so I contacted her again this morning, before 9pm, telling her I was still feeling ill and wasn't up to coming in. She said ok, but then sent me a messages asking for an update on a number of things.

    In order to produce this update, I had to go through my work emails and collate information from a number of emails I have received over the past few days and then send her a report.

    So I'm just wondering, is it OK for my manager to ask me for something like this when I have called in sick? After contacting her this morning I really wanted to just rest and focus on getting better.

    Maybe I'm being unreasonable, but this doesn't feel right.

    Im guessing you are working in a salaried position instead of a per hour job? When I worked in an office because we were paid a basic pay regardless of hours worked (contracted for 40) you were almost frowned at if you actually left on time, the theory being you obviously werent busy enough.

    Anyway, again in that job it would have been common for phonecalls at the time but I suppose texs and emails now from whoever was covering your desk as shipments still came and went, etc. You were off but your desk wasnt. Vice versa if someone went sick or was on holidays and I was covering them and ran into a situation I couldnt resolve, I would ring em.

    I left that job after getting a call on a sunday from a customer who was annoyed that a shipment had been delayed due to a storm as if I controlled the weather!


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    #63
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    All this over someone taking 2 days off with a cold being asked to check a few emails? Apart from our corporate tax rate, why on earth would a multinational want to set up shop here?, good employees are hard to find and should be generously rewarded for their skill and commitment, but make absolutely no mistake, average/poor employees are utterly expendable. Opening an email and replying is not taxing on th body or mind, if it is too much to do from the comfort of your bed in between wiping your nose, then I see no reason why advancement should be considered in any form.


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    #64
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    And whats the transitioning on a person that without advance notice doesn't show up for work? How do you handover the responsibility to somebody else?

    Would you, just maybe, ask for the most pertinent info so that a transition could be done? Is that so unreasonable?

    The OP is an executive not a shelf stacker, management cannot just get some other shelf stacker to do the job without any questions needed.
    bucketybuck wrote: »
    And whats the transitioning on a person that without advance notice doesn't show up for work? How do you handover the responsibility to somebody else?

    Would you, just maybe, ask for the most pertinent info so that a transition could be done? Is that so unreasonable?

    The OP is an executive not a shelf stacker, management cannot just get some other shelf stacker to do the job without any questions needed.

    And if the OP was out for something serious and not contactable? Mission critical stuff should always have cover, this is managements responsibility.

    I have also already said several times that a 5-10 min transition call is grand, but expecting an employee that is off sick to spend an hour generating reports is not acceptable.
    davo10 wrote: »
    All this over someone taking 2 days off with a cold being asked to check a few emails?

    That wasn't what they were asked.


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    #65
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,213 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    And if the OP was out for something serious and not contactable? Mission critical stuff should always have cover, this is managements responsibility.

    I have also already said several times that a 5-10 min transition call is grand, but expecting an employee that is off sick to spend an hour generating reports is not acceptable.

    If the OP got hit by a bus and died what would they do, yeah? Thats another fallacy.

    If the OP was not contactable then depending on the role there may be various options. One obvious one would be to get IT to access her emails and get the required info directly, is that what they should have done? Another would be to cancel all ongoing projects for the OP and transfer her role full time to somebody else, is that what they should have done? Should they really go that far when it is far simpler and better for everyone involved to just send a few emails keeping people in the loop? Should they really go nuclear just because the OP is poorly for a few days?

    Again, you talk as if this was some shalf stacker, all your suggestions seem tailored to some unimportant minimum wage nobody. In the real world people have responsibilities and have to discharge them.

    People such as yourself always talk about "management", its always their job and their fault, just like for some its always the governments job and the governments fault. But what do you do when the person off is the management?


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    #66
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    Youngblood.III wrote: »
    Thats a bollox question, so if the op is on their phone lying in bed, their good enough to work (work email is work full stop)

    I've worked with far worse (broken ankle, bronchitis, crushed hip etc).
    It could very well be a bleed over from being in a small family business and the fact that there often is no way for "transitioning" to happen., Frankly, the entire "i have a sniffle, so screw dem managements" is a nasty attitude to have.

    The OP's not being asked to do anything particularly arduous. Its a report and some e-mails.
    It has been mentioned earlier that advancement should be ruled out and i'd tend to agree with that.
    Who do you want in your management team? "Can-do" or "screw-you"? It's an obvious answer.

    @OP, obviously you cannot be forced, but for the sake of your career, open the bloody outlook client. At the very least you'll be able to hit the ground running when you're better.


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    #67
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    If the OP got hit by a bus and died what would they do, yeah? Thats another fallacy.

    My arse its a fallacy, people ring in sick to work and are not in a fit state to do anything quite often.
    bucketybuck wrote: »
    If the OP was not contactable then depending on the role there may be various options. One obvious one would be to get IT to access her emails and get the required info directly, is that what they should have done? Another would be to cancel all ongoing projects for the OP and transfer her role full time to somebody else, is that what they should have done? Should they really go that far when it is far simpler and better for everyone involved to just send a few emails keeping people in the loop? Should they really go nuclear just because the OP is poorly for a few days?

    Again, you talk as if this was some shalf stacker, all your suggestions seem tailored to some unimportant minimum wage nobody. In the real world people have responsibilities and have to discharge them.

    People such as yourself always talk about "management", its always their job and their fault, just like for some its always the governments job and the governments fault. But what do you do when the person off is the management?

    IT should not be accessing private email. Any half organised company ensures critical roles have cover - this is bog standard practise, i have no idea why you think otherwise.

    "People such as yourself" - you mean people that manage people for a living?

    edit: forgot to mention in the company I work for if you call in sick it is absolutely forbidden for anyone to contact you about work matters while you are off. On the other hand if you have no kept your transition doc up to date you will be shafted when you return.


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    #68
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    IT should not be accessing private email.

    Any half-arsed company has in its contract that any e-mails, tech etc are the sole property of the company.
    That is of course assuming s/he wasn't an idiot and didn't do work stuff on a private e-mail account.

    Company e-mails are not private. The contents of such belong to the company, and the company is perfectly entitled to get access to it in order to gain the economic benefit due from them.


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    #69
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Any half-arsed company has in its contract that any e-mails, tech etc are the sole property of the company.
    That is of course assuming s/he wasn't an idiot and didn't do work stuff on a private e-mail account.

    Company e-mails are not private. The contents of such belong to the company, and the company is perfectly entitled to get access to it in order to gain the economic benefit due from them.


    All employees have a reasonable expectancy to privacy, even in work email accounts. Unless specifically called out in and even then only under very specific circumstances an employees mail is private.


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    #70
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    All employees have a reasonable expectancy to privacy, even in work email accounts. Unless specifically called out in and even then only under very specific circumstances an employees mail is private.

    If staff are out, and i need to retrieve a quote/report/etc from their PC so that i can continue to run the business; then privacy be damned, i'm getting on that PC.

    I quote this:" Incoming and outgoing e-mail's which are of "enduring organisational interest" are records under the above Acts and must not be kept in your e-mail account. They must be transferred to the appropriate document library or file.

    from here: https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Guidance-Notes-Monitoring-of-Staff/208.htm

    Now, this page mentions on multiple occasions the need to balance the concerns of the employer with the privacy rights of the employee, but there is nothing on that page that says the employee has the right to completely shutout the employer from accessing its property or interests.

    Edit: i also quote this: "A balance is required between the legitimate rights of employers and the personal privacy rights of employees
    Any monitoring activity should be transparent to workers"
    Complete privacy is not allowed, but there should be a balance.


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    #71
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    If staff are out, and i need to retrieve a quote/report/etc from their PC so that i can continue to run the business; then privacy be damned, i'm getting on that PC.

    I quote this:" Incoming and outgoing e-mail's which are of "enduring organisational interest" are records under the above Acts and must not be kept in your e-mail account. They must be transferred to the appropriate document library or file.

    from here: https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Guidance-Notes-Monitoring-of-Staff/208.htm

    Now, this page mentions on multiple occasions the need to balance the concerns of the employer with the privacy rights of the employee, but there is nothing on that page that says the employee has the right to completely shutout the employer from accessing its property or interests.

    Edit: i also quote this: "A balance is required between the legitimate rights of employers and the personal privacy rights of employees
    Any monitoring activity should be transparent to workers"
    Complete privacy is not allowed, but there should be a balance.

    Privacy be damned, data protection commissioner hello! Honestly, have you any familiarity with a professionally run compliant company?


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    #72
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,213 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    IT should not be accessing private email.
    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Privacy be damned, data protection commissioner hello! Honestly, have you any familiarity with a professionally run compliant company?

    You really haven't a clue what you are talking about. I'm actually embarrassed for you.


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    #73
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    You really haven't a clue what you are talking about. I'm actually embarrassed for you.

    What exactly are you refuting? I was responding to the poster who said he would access someones mail when they wanted, with no regard to policy or privacy. Data protection aside that would make corp IT go mental.


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    #74
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,213 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    What exactly are you refuting? I was responding to the poster who said he would access someones mail when they wanted, with no regard to policy or privacy. Data protection aside that would make corp IT go mental.

    You actually think companies do not have the right to access their own servers and their own computers, thats just laughably uninformed. Where do you even start with somebody as wrong as that?


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    #75
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    You actually think companies do not have the right to access their own servers and their own computers, thats just laughably uninformed. Where do you even start with somebody as wrong as that?

    Yes, that's exactly what I think because that often how it works. Employees have a right to privacy, even using company servers. This right can often be confirmed in policy. Mission critical info is kept in shared areas. You know, in case someone is sick.


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    #76
    Arbiter of Good Taste
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭Arbiter of Good Taste


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    All employees have a reasonable expectancy to privacy, even in work email accounts. Unless specifically called out in and even then only under very specific circumstances an employees mail is private.

    Actually, no. Any and all emails through a work account are the property of the employer. If the employee is looking for privacy, then they should conduct personal business through a personal email


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    #77
    Arbiter of Good Taste
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭Arbiter of Good Taste


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Yes, that's exactly what I think because that often how it works. Employees have a right to privacy, even using company servers. This right can often be confirmed in policy. Mission critical info is kept in shared areas. You know, in case someone is sick.

    I've never read anything so wrong in my life


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    #78
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »
    Actually, no. Any and all emails through a work account are the property of the employer. If the employee is looking for privacy, then they should conduct personal business through a personal email

    Not where I work now or have previously worked. If mails are to be public to the company a shared mailbox or public doc share is used.

    If all company mail is to be accessible then that needs to be explicitly called out in policy as employees have a reasonable expectation of privacy.


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    #79
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,213 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    The best part is that this tangent was started by runawaybishop stating that companies should have policies to deal with employees who don't turn up or are not contactable.

    He thinks that on one hand the sick employee should not have to be involved in any sort of transition, but at the same time the company cannot take any steps to find out the information they need to know.

    Its simply myopic.


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    #80
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »
    I've never read anything so wrong in my life

    Not a rebuttal. Interesting how you can say something I have direct experience with is not true though. I must be imaging it.


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    #81
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    The best part is that this tangent was started by runawaybishop stating that companies should have policies to deal with employees who don't turn up or are not contactable.

    He thinks that on one hand the sick employee should not have to be involved in any sort of transition, but at the same time the company cannot take any steps to find out the information they need to know.

    Its simply myopic.

    I said said 3 times now the employee should transition, I have also said procedures should be inplace to deal with absent employees. You think that procedure is "access their mail". That's just daft.

    You don't seem to be connected to how companies deal with this stuff, its pretty easy. Cc people, keep docs, share info.


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    #82
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,213 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    I said said 3 times now the employee should transition, I have also said procedures should be inplace to deal with absent employees.

    You don't seem to be connected to how companies deal with this stuff, its pretty easy. Cc people, keep docs, share info.

    And how should the sick employee transition?

    Its unscheduled, she hasn't turned up for work, she is in an executive role, whats the most effective and efficient way to transition her workload to other staff in her absence?

    Come on, you can do it...


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    #83
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    And how should the sick employee transition?

    Its unscheduled, she hasn't turned up for work, she is in an executive role, whats the most effective and efficient way to transition her workload to other staff in her absence?

    Come on, you can do it...

    I have already put forward my position, several times.

    Hint: read the post you quoted.


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    #84
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,213 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    I have already put forward my position, several times.

    Hint: read the post you quoted.

    No you haven't. Not a single thing in the quoted post answers my question. Do you want to try again?


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    #85
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    No you haven't. Not a single thing in the quoted post answers my question. Do you want to try again?

    No. It doesn't appear you have any management experience with a large, professional workplace.


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    #86
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,213 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    No. It doesn't appear you have any management experience with a large, professional workplace.
    At least I know who owns the company servers.

    Heres the easy question again, give it a try.

    Its unscheduled, she hasn't turned up for work, she is in an executive role, whats the most effective and efficient way to transition her workload to other staff in her absence?


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    #87
    StupidLikeAFox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    I said said 3 times now the employee should transition, I have also said procedures should be inplace to deal with absent employees. You think that procedure is "access their mail". That's just daft.

    You don't seem to be connected to how companies deal with this stuff, its pretty easy. Cc people, keep docs, share info.
    You should preface this with "in a perfect world...."

    The company should do these thing but obviously didn't so your point is redundant

    @OP, it sounds like the boss asked you for a favour to keep things going in work (at no point did it sound like they were pressuring you to come back when you were still unwell). You were probably within your rights to refuse, maybe you were caught off guard but you gave them a dig out anyway. I would focus on getting better and just pick up where you left off when you are well again


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    #88
    myshirt
    Registered Users Posts: 5,245 ✭✭✭myshirt


    Where I come from an employee who always works through lunch; takes two days holidays a year; is in the office every weekend; and leaves each night after 10... that type of persons is regarded as an absolute lazy b#stard.

    Op - certainly if you can work from home, you can work. That would be the feeling. Cleanest way of dealing with it is always get the illness certified. Your employer then can have this challenged by their own appointed medical reviewer, if they've any issue, and it is problem solved.

    Do you work in the public service? Please god tell me you don't work in the public service. We have a massive, massive cultural problem within the public service and many need a kick in the pants here. Still riding out the disgraceful behaviours of the past, despite remaining overpaid, inefficient, and underworked.


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    #89
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    mod cut out the sniping and get back on topic addressing the Op . No more discussion of monitoring of email etc


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    #90
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    One brother of mine works for a huge pharmaceutical company in Europe on a huge salary
    Sick or well , on annual leave or honeymoon, death in the family or wedding celebration, those emails pour in from across the globe and must be replied to
    He gets the big moolah, he has to be on top of it and his budget runs into millions and it all has to be accounted for
    He reckons that if you accept the salary your going to earn it, in private industry


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    #91
    pow wow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,288 ✭✭✭pow wow


    To be fair the OP could have told the Manager no and said they weren't well enough to complete any work....and perhaps offered the Manager access to their emails so the Manager could fish around and do their own report.

    For a lot of companies unless there's an employment relations dispute ongoing, contacting employees when they're out sick can be kind of a 'grey' area, i.e. the Manager makes the call on whether it's appropriate or not. Keep in mind their overarching concern is usually the business (obviously the welfare of the employees is a factor too) so the Manager may ask the question with the needs of the business in mind, but should have a Plan B if the welfare of the employee means the employee says no (i.e. OP is too sick to comply with the request). From the way the OP describes it they weren't forced into doing anything, but are more frustrated with themselves that they didn't stand up for themselves or say no. Depending on the company they may have been scared to say no etc.

    OP, I'd say it's ok for the Manager to ask, but they should also be content with you saying no.


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