Munster vs Leicester match thread

jm08 · 13-12-2015 2:50am

awec wrote: »

Schmidt definitely has input but I doubt that the IRFU are paying a bloke like Nucifora just to be the hatchetman.

I can't see any other reason for the IRFU to employ him (from his past employment history - with Brumbies and Australia anyway). He got a 5 year contract which seems rather a long time to get. Probably so he got decent compensation for when he does get the boot.

awec · 13-12-2015 2:53am

jm08 wrote: »

I can't see any other reason for the IRFU to employ him (from his past employment history - with Brumbies and Australia anyway). He got a 5 year contract which seems rather a long time to get. Probably so he got decent compensation for when he does get the boot.

Well I imagine he's employed to increase and improve the pool of players available to Schmidt.

He's not being paid to be the public face of anything the IRFU think might be contentious so that disgruntled fans have someone to moan at.

jm08 · 13-12-2015 2:54am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, I think Schmidt would be a lot more involved when an Irish international was moving, that would certainly make sense.

There isn't any evidence really, it's just a weird shot to take at Schmidt when there's plenty of others in the IRFU who would have a lot of input into that kind of thing.

Like who? This is all being done to make the international team stronger and with greater depth. You'd expect the International head coach to have major input into this policy.

edit: This is how he is described in the42.ie by Murray Kinsella:

THE IRFU HAS spoken out in defence of its player management system following recent criticisms of the programme by Leinster head coach Matt O’Connor.

Ireland boss Joe Schmidt and IRFU performance director David Nucifora, the two key decision makers in Irish rugby, yesterday underlined their belief that Ireland’s player management system is “the envy of a lot of other rugby-playing nations.”

jm08 · 13-12-2015 2:59am

awec wrote: »

Well I imagine he's employed to increase and improve the pool of players available to Schmidt.

He's not being paid to be the public face of anything the IRFU think might be contentious so that disgruntled fans have someone to moan at.

Nucifora is the go between - not just the public face. He is the one who breaks the news to Foley that he can't recruit Stephen Moore.

thomond2006 · 13-12-2015 4:50am

I watched it in a pub and the sound wasn't great....did Keatley actually get catcalled off the pitch?

Anywho bad night at the office for sure. Of course we're not out of it yet, next week Munster can bounce back. However the amount of possession and territory that came to naught doesn't bode well. I'll wait a week before any State of the Munster Nation posts.

wandatowell · 13-12-2015 6:00am

mahoney_j wrote: »

4 Keatley dosnt cut it at 10 both general play and kicking not up to scratch .saying that the booing and heckling of him coming off was unacceptable.

Very poor form to boo and heckle player leaving the field of play. Keats knows more than anyone how the game went.

former total · 13-12-2015 9:01am

thomond2006 wrote: »

I watched it in a pub and the sound wasn't great....did Keatley actually get catcalled off the pitch?

Watched it on TV at home and I certainly didn't hear any.

mahoney_j · 13-12-2015 9:03am

former total wrote: »

Watched it on TV at home and I certainly didn't hear any.

I was in east stand and heard it up there ,guy had a shocker but that was totally uncalled for by some so called Munster supporters .

vkid · 13-12-2015 9:12am

There was a cheer when he was taken off, think it was more aimed at foley than keatley. He should not have been left on that long....everyone around us in the west stand was saying the same.. about bloody time...

former total · 13-12-2015 9:44am

There are some positives to be taken from it.

Earls and Conway were good, and both loose heads were very impressive.

The big negative was the defence, both the alignment and one-on-one tackling were atrocious. Too many stupid penalties too.

aimee1 · 13-12-2015 9:48am

jm08 wrote: »

Well, he tried to bring in Stephen Moore and he was blocked by Schmidt & Nucifora. I'm sure he observed what happened to Matt O'Connor when he didn't tow the party line.

Scannell looked very good last night, munsters best forward in the first half.

Sherry if stays fit is a good player and Casey is good enough at European level too so i dont see what Moore brings that will make such a huge improvement worth blocking two lads (NS and DC) who have huge potential.

Munsters problems last night stem from poor play at half back. Thats where they lost the game

Interested Observer · 13-12-2015 10:18am

former total wrote: »

There are some positives to be taken from it.

Earls and Conway were good, and both loose heads were very impressive.

The big negative was the defence, both the alignment and one-on-one tackling were atrocious. Too many stupid penalties too.

Some very good work at the breakdown too, won a lot of penalties.

jm08 · 13-12-2015 11:23am

aimee1 wrote: »

Scannell looked very good last night, munsters best forward in the first half.

Sherry if stays fit is a good player and Casey is good enough at European level too so i dont see what Moore brings that will make such a huge improvement worth blocking two lads (NS and DC) who have huge potential.

Munsters problems last night stem from poor play at half back. Thats where they lost the game

Moore would bring leadership.

awec · 13-12-2015 11:35am

Where can highlights of this be seen?

aimee1 · 13-12-2015 11:38am

jm08 wrote: »

Moore would bring leadership.

thats great. So Murray had an average night with his kicks and Keatley missed two straight forward [at this level they should be] kicks plus two touchfinders but the hooker we dont & wont have is a great leader.

Munster's issues arent down to leadership and pushing that excuse is just ignoring the glaringly obvious.

Madigan isnt the answer, him or Keatley bring different things which would help and hinder munster. In the end Munster need to forget about a NIQ hooker and consider the idea of an NIQ 10 who is better then any option in ireland and Bleyendaal is simply turning into another waste of time, money and effort.

For all the criticism madigan gets, if he performed like keatley did last night but kicked his goals and munster won he would be praised. Small margins.

Blackheath · 13-12-2015 11:39am

awec wrote: »

Where can highlights of this be seen?

There were no highlights

former total · 13-12-2015 11:39am

awec wrote: »

Where can highlights of this be seen?

TG4 website

aimee1 · 13-12-2015 11:39am

awec wrote: »

Where can highlights of this be seen?

TG4 have a highlights show so on their player?

davo2001 · 13-12-2015 11:40am

awec wrote: »

Where can highlights of this be seen?

They were on tg4 last night so might be on their player?

roundymac · 13-12-2015 12:03pm

cronin_j wrote: »

Foley surrounded himself with "Yes" men by picking Ian Costello and Brian Walsh. Its coming home to bite him in the arse now.

When the chips are down, Munster could rebound, they look rudderless now!

I think we should start looking at who appointed Foley and co in the first place, ie; Garret Fitz the ceo and anyone else involved. Why was Penny allowed to walk away that time? was because he was told Foley had to be on his staff and Mannix was being left go. There were rumours at the time that some of the players did'nt get on with Mannix. There are a lot of unanswered questions.

Interested Observer · 13-12-2015 12:05pm

roundymac wrote: »

I think we should start looking at who appointed Foley and co in the first place, ie; Garret Fitz the ceo and anyone else involved. Why was Penny allowed to walk away that time? was because he was told Foley had to be on his staff and Mannix was being left go. There were rumours at the time that some of the players did'nt get on with Mannix. There are a lot of unanswered questions.

I'm fairly sure Penney was offered a contract but he chose to take up the job in Japan.

Foley has obviously been earmarked for the job for a long while now though. It was a funny thing having himself and Penney on the same coaching ticket considering they were both forwards coaches.

CMOTDibbler · 13-12-2015 12:11pm

jm08 wrote: »

Moore would bring leadership.

Leadership? Three hookers in the squad and another one for leadership?

What about POM and Stander and Murray and Ryan? Do they not bring leadership? How p1ssed off would they be and the three other hookers to have Moore parachuted in?

Lads would be packing their bags and rightly so.

molloyjh · 13-12-2015 12:15pm

How did Stander do actually?

CMOTDibbler · 13-12-2015 12:24pm

molloyjh wrote: »

How did Stander do actually?

Pretty well actually. Probably one of the standout Munster players in his ball carrying and attacking play. Defended well too.

The Lost Sheep · 13-12-2015 12:34pm

mahoney_j wrote: »

My thoughts after that
1 we are now bordering on a very average team
2 No strong voices through team, captaincy v poor
3 doc ain't a close relation of a 7 and our back row as a unit is v poor
4 Keatley dosnt cut it at 10 both general play and kicking not up to scratch. saying that the booing and heckling of him coming off was unacceptable
5 foley has had his chance and failed, we havnt progressed, we've regressed as a team. letting Jj go was criminal and bringing some of his old mates (Flannery, o Driscoll )with him was poor decision.

We've been bordering on average for a while
No strong voices through team? Donncha Ryan, Botha, Stander, Hurley...
Doc isn't a 7 and wouldn't have played there but for injuries etc. We were missing 2 of our first choice backrow. I imagine if JOD hadn't been ill in week previous he may have came on earlier.
Flannery has been fine as scrum coach. O Driscoll as technical adviser is a different issue....

roundymac wrote: »

I think we should start looking at who appointed Foley and co in the first place, ie; Garret Fitz the ceo and anyone else involved. Why was Penny allowed to walk away that time? was because he was told Foley had to be on his staff and Mannix was being left go. There were rumours at the time that some of the players did'nt get on with Mannix. There are a lot of unanswered questions.

Of course we should but that wont happen. All talk is that John Kelly is likely to follow on from GF when he goes...
Penney left as he wanted to and he declined the contract Munster offered him. He was "allowed to walk away" as he wanted to

13-12-2015 1:48pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

I'm fairly sure Penney was offered a contract but he chose to take up the job in Japan.

Foley has obviously been earmarked for the job for a long while now though. It was a funny thing having himself and Penney on the same coaching ticket considering they were both forwards coaches.

Penny was offered a 1 year contract but it seemed from the outside that he was heavily undermined by Foley and some of the players to be honest.

In the Heinekin cup win over Toulose I remember O'Connell talking about it a year or so later saying that they had to revert to more a Munster style and DOC said something similar. The team leadership wasn't buying into what Penny was trying to get them to do, and you have Foley there in the background offering the "Declan Kidney lite" option. It's not an environment where a good coach is going to accept an insultingly short extension and you could see he was particularly sour by the end of it.

And now we're stuck with Foley who is hilariously out of his depth and seems to be alienating half the team. Good job Mr. Fitzgerald.

Interested Observer · 13-12-2015 1:56pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Penny was offered a 1 year contract but it seemed from the outside that he was heavily undermined by Foley and some of the players to be honest.

In the Heinekin cup win over Toulose I remember O'Connell talking about it a year or so later saying that they had to revert to more a Munster style and DOC said something similar. The team leadership wasn't buying into what Penny was trying to get them to do, and you have Foley there in the background offering the "Declan Kidney lite" option. It's not an environment where a good coach is going to accept an insultingly short extension and you could see he was particularly sour by the end of it.

And now we're stuck with Foley who is hilariously out of his depth and seems to be alienating half the team. Good job Mr. Fitzgerald.

Fair enough on Penney, I don't think the environment was right for him to stay. There was also some very outspoken media pundits calling for him to go and Foley to be brought in.

The extremely poor comments Foley made about the ref show to me he's feeling huge pressure, he essentially lashed out looking for someone to blame. It was a bad decision from Poite but it was a penalty in the Leicester half. He should be focusing on what happened subsequently rather than crying. Not sure he's long for the job tbh.

CMOTDibbler · 13-12-2015 2:49pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

Fair enough on Penney, I don't think the environment was right for him to stay. There was also some very outspoken media pundits calling for him to go and Foley to be brought in.

The extremely poor comments Foley made about the ref show to me he's feeling huge pressure, he essentially lashed out looking for someone to blame. It was a bad decision from Poite but it was a penalty in the Leicester half. He should be focusing on what happened subsequently rather than crying. Not sure he's long for the job tbh.

Didn't really heap praise on Ian Keatley either :rolleyes::

Asked about Ian Keatley’s three missed kicks at goal, one of which was from in front of the posts in the first half, Foley was succinct.

“I think you are (disappointed). You have an international out-half and you want to be getting particularly in front of the posts. You definitely want to be getting them.”

"International out-half" Keatley has what? 4 caps?

Zzippy · 13-12-2015 3:19pm

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Didn't really heap praise Ian Keatley either :rolleyes::

"International out-half" Keatley has what? 4 caps?

I didn't see the interview but that's poor form from a coach, pretty much threw him under the bus. A good coach backs up his players in public and gives them the hairdryer treatment behind closed doors.

jm08 · 13-12-2015 4:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Penny was offered a 1 year contract but it seemed from the outside that he was heavily undermined by Foley and some of the players to be honest.

In the Heinekin cup win over Toulose I remember O'Connell talking about it a year or so later saying that they had to revert to more a Munster style and DOC said something similar. The team leadership wasn't buying into what Penny was trying to get them to do, and you have Foley there in the background offering the "Declan Kidney lite" option. It's not an environment where a good coach is going to accept an insultingly short extension and you could see he was particularly sour by the end of it.

And now we're stuck with Foley who is hilariously out of his depth and seems to be alienating half the team. Good job Mr. Fitzgerald.

I think the IRFU have a big say in the coaching staff recruitment and extension (i.e., we heard that the IRFU wanted to give Leo a 1 year contract, rather than 2).

For the Nth time, Penney accepted his 1 year extension (1 year is normal extension - both Cheika & Schmidt were on them). He then got an offer of a coaching job in Japan which was 3 years and went there. Lets not forget that lots of coaching staff are jumping ship (like Jono Gibbs, Dan McFarland, David Humphreys), for similar jobs outside of Ireland and ex-players like ROG are keeping clear of Ireland for the moment apparently.

As for Penney's relationship with Munster - seems to be pretty friendly going on twitter. Seems to hold Paul O'Connell in very high esteem as well, so you really have read that one wrong.

Munster vs Leicester match thread

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