Another Dublin Bus phenomenon: dropping passengers at peak time outside stops...

MuffinsDa

Seeing that my previous thread on Dublin Bus was quite contentious, here's another interesting phenomenon I observed on Friday.

Friday 5pm
Leeson Street Bridge Stop 2872

Peak time, lots of buses already full when arriving at this stop. I can understand there not being capacity to pick up extra passenger.

However, there was a particularly bad shortage of 145s at that time, I had to wait for 3 to pass and the 4th one eventually picked up passengers.

But what was really interesting was of the 3 that passed without picking up passenger, two of them actually STOPPED well before the Bus Stop, to let passengers out. One let 3 passengers out, the other let 2. However, they still refused to stop to pick 3 passengers at the actual stop even thou they clearly would have had room for 5. That's 5 people going home earlier, 5 people getting less wet, denied by kindly Dublin Bus driver. Completely unnecessary?

Any views or similar experiences?

schemingbohemia

Sometimes the kindly Dublin Bus driver will have taken on more passengers than s/he should have. S/He is not going to know when someone presses the bell how many will be getting off the bus, how many times have you been at a bus stop and the bus driver allows 2 off and 2 on and someone skips you to get on thus letting the bus driver open for abuse.
Your post is proof of the damned if you do, damned if you don't.
If you have an annual/monthly pass you're often better off hopping on a 7b/d in town and then switching to a 145 in Stillorgan, there seems to be significant issues with 145 capacity at peak evening rush hour - perhaps they should start 1 or 2 145s on Kildare Street - but then we'd have people complaining about As Seirbhis buses going past in the rush hour.

super_furry

Yep, been on buses where it's been dangerously overcrowded and people getting off shouldn't be replaced.

thomasj

Never experienced it!

It's always been the bus stops at the stop the driver says to those trying to get on to hang on. Then whoever gets off that amount gets back on.

thomasj

super_furry wrote:

Yep, been on buses where it's been dangerously overcrowded and people getting off shouldn't be replaced.

Agree, I was on a 39a 2 weeks ago on one of the new buses where there were 30 standing downstairs and 2 on the stairs and a buggy. In that case the driver was still letting people on after people got off.

MuffinsDa

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Sometimes the kindly Dublin Bus driver will have taken on more passengers than s/he should have. S/He is not going to know when someone presses the bell how many will be getting off the bus, how many times have you been at a bus stop and the bus driver allows 2 off and 2 on and someone skips you to get on thus letting the bus driver open for abuse.
Your post is proof of the damned if you do, damned if you don't.

What?!
What an Irish solution to a simple problem!

So you think it's ok for them to illegally (is it illegal actually?!) open the doors completely outside the bus stop (all this while the bus stop is empty), in order to avoid having to tell 2-3 passengers that "the bus is full, sorry?". Also, you think it's ok to leave 5 people in the cold so that the driver doesn't have to go through the inconvenience of slightly confronting people? Do they not get basic training in this sort of stuff, i.e. how to be firm/assertive but polite/courteous?

Kyleboy

MuffinsDa wrote: »

What?!
What an Irish solution to a simple problem!

So you think it's ok for them to illegally (is it illegal actually?!) open the doors completely outside the bus stop (all this while the bus stop is empty), in order to avoid having to tell 2-3 passengers that "the bus is full, sorry?". Also, you think it's ok to leave 5 people in the cold so that the driver doesn't have to go through the inconvenience of slightly confronting people? Do they not get basic training in this sort of stuff, i.e. how to be firm/assertive but polite/courteous?

Maybe the driver didn't want to stop at the stop in case people started taking pictures of him and the bus, then waste his own time going to see his manager over the accusations made against him?nobody knows what the capacity of each bus is, there is a guide on each bus but that can change from bus to bus even if it's the same type of bus.

MuffinsDa

Kyleboy wrote: »

Maybe the driver didn't want to stop at the stop in case people started taking pictures of him and the bus, then waste his own time going to see his manager over the accusations made against him?nobody knows what the capacity of each bus is, there is a guide on each bus but that can change from bus to bus even if it's the same type of bus.

I guess you must be one of those drivers?!

What you say here defies logic in so many ways.

1. The driver doesn't know what the capacity of the bus he is driving is?!
2. In order to not have "his picture taken"(!!!!!!) the driver illegally stops outside bus stops?
3. In order to avoid the picture taker "waste his own time going to see his manager" the driver leaves 5 people standing in the cold for an extra 20 minutes?

Wow. Just wow. That attitude sums up what's wrong with Dublin Bus....

super_furry

The baffling leaps of logic being taken from post to post here are hilarious.

schemingbohemia

MuffinsDa wrote: »

What?!
What an Irish solution to a simple problem!

So you think it's ok for them to illegally (is it illegal actually?!) open the doors completely outside the bus stop (all this while the bus stop is empty), in order to avoid having to tell 2-3 passengers that "the bus is full, sorry?". Also, you think it's ok to leave 5 people in the cold so that the driver doesn't have to go through the inconvenience of slightly confronting people? Do they not get basic training in this sort of stuff, i.e. how to be firm/assertive but polite/courteous?

I wasn't saying I agreed with it but I can understand how it happens.

coylemj

If the driver has someone messing with coins at his cash machine, he can easily lose count of the number of people boarding, especially now that most regular commuters have tickets so as has already been pointed pointed out, the bus may end up being overloaded and the solution as I have seen many times is to let people off before or after the next stop so as to bring the passenger headcount back to the authorised limit. Some of the people who board will go upstairs and only drift slowly down to the lower deck when they find upstairs full so the driver may not realise he's overloaded until after he has pulled away from the stop.

StreetLight

MuffinsDa wrote: »

Wow. Just wow. That attitude sums up what's wrong with Dublin Bus....

There is one set of eyes watching out for nearly a hundred people at a time, each with a different set of requirements.

Get off your high horse.

Kyleboy

MuffinsDa wrote: »

I guess you must be one of those drivers?!

What you say here defies logic in so many ways.

1. The driver doesn't know what the capacity of the bus he is driving is?!
2. In order to not have "his picture taken"(!!!!!!) the driver illegally stops outside bus stops?
3. In order to avoid the picture taker "waste his own time going to see his manager" the driver leaves 5 people standing in the cold for an extra 20 minutes?

Wow. Just wow. That attitude sums up what's wrong with Dublin Bus....

No mate, i would have stopped at the bus stop and let the 3 people off.
I guess you must be one of those people who get satisfaction out of taking pictures of bus drivers, oh well live and let live i suppose

Kyleboy

super_furry wrote: »

The baffling leaps of logic being taken from post to post here are hilarious.

Maybe you should get out more

Dyr

Drivers aren't allowed to let passengers alight or embark the bus except at designated stops

Unless it suits them, of course

They just dont want the hassle of telling the hordes at the bus stop that's there's only room for a few of them

Mr.Crinklewood

If he had stopped and only allowed a few people on, someone would have opened a topic about a driver stopping at a stop and not allowing him on.


Alternatively someone would have got on the bus and then opened a topic about the the greed of Dublin Bus risking passenger safety by overcowding the bus.

Dyr

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

If he had stopped and only allowed a few people on, someone would have opened a topic about a driver stopping at a stop and not allowing him on.


Alternatively someone would have got on the bus and then opened a topic about the the greed of Dublin Bus risking passenger safety by overcowding the bus.

Nah he would have had to deal with customers arguing over who gets on and telling him that dublin are basically useless

And drivers can't be arsed with that.

MuffinsDa

Kyleboy wrote: »

I guess you must be one of those people who get satisfaction out of taking pictures of bus drivers, oh well live and let live i suppose

What is your obsession with taking pictures? Why are you so freaked out about it and harping on an on about it?! Can we stick to the topic? Why all this personal attacks?

MuffinsDa

Bambi wrote: »

They just dont want the hassle of telling the hordes at the bus stop that's there's only room for a few of them

But why not? I would perfectly understand and respect it! It's better if a few get on the bus than none. I think most people would completely understand that and would expect that occasionally at the rush hour, rather than being treating with contempt and avoided!

monument

Kyleboy wrote: »

Maybe you should get out more

Focus on the posts and not the posters.

Kyleboy

MuffinsDa wrote: »

What is your obsession with taking pictures? Why are you so freaked out about it and harping on an on about it?! Can we stick to the topic? Why the personal attack?

Very sorry about the personal attack, you work away and say what you like,i am not freaked out by it at all, i always smile for the camera, i just think it's sad that someone would go to such great lengths to get somebody into trouble.

MuffinsDa

Kyleboy wrote: »

i just think it's sad that someone would go to such great lengths to get somebody into trouble.

As in reporting something to Dublin Bus? So you say one shouldn't make a complaint, or if they do, should not include enough information in order to make the complaint specific and meaningful so that Dublin Bus can actually do something about it and fix the issue? If someone gets into trouble for breaking the rules of their own company and putting passengers in discomfort unnecessarily then they only have themselves to blame.

Kyleboy

MuffinsDa wrote: »

As in reporting something to Dublin Bus? So you say one shouldn't make a complaint, or if they do, should not include enough information in order to make the complaint specific and meaningful so that Dublin Bus can actually do something about it and fix the issue? If someone gets into trouble for breaking the rules of their own company and putting passengers in discomfort unnecessarily then they only have themselves to blame.

I have no problem with people making complaints about me or any other drivers but is it really necessary to take a picture of him, just take the registration of the bus.

MuffinsDa

Kyleboy wrote: »

I have no problem with people making complaints about me or any other drivers but is it really necessary to take a picture of him, just take the registration of the bus.

I don't think I mentioned anything about taking a picture on this thread. If you are referring to the other recent thread (on a different topic) then why not discuss it there if necessary. You've done a good job of diverting this thread off topic so far!

Cookie_Monster

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

If he had stopped and only allowed a few people on, someone would have opened a topic about a driver stopping at a stop and not allowing him on.

doubtful, it's very easy to see a bus is at or near capacity and accept you may not get on.

dubscottie

Don't take the bus much but there always seems to be a die-hard bunch (with earphones) that stand downstairs and refuse to even look up stairs for a seat on every peak hour bus.

You all know them.. The ones that you meet when you get to your stop and you wait behind them thinking they are queuing to get off but aren't..

If the downstairs is full with standing passengers that refuse to move?? I would not take on anymore Passengers.

(not a bus driver but 5 members of my family are).

Kyleboy

MuffinsDa wrote: »

What is your obsession with taking pictures? Why are you so freaked out about it and harping on an on about it?! Can we stick to the topic? Why all this personal attacks?

I don't have a obsession with taking pictures, are you getting me confused with someone else?

MuffinsDa

Kyleboy wrote: »

I don't have a obsession with taking pictures, are you getting me confused with someone else?

Oh right. Must be another Kyleboy then:

Kyleboy wrote: »

taking pictures of him and the bus

Kyleboy wrote: »

...get satisfaction out of taking pictures of bus drivers...

Kyleboy wrote: »

...is it really necessary to take a picture of him...

Now can we get back on topic?

MuffinsDa

dubscottie wrote: »

Don't take the bus much but there always seems to be a die-hard bunch (with earphones) that stand downstairs and refuse to even look up stairs for a seat on every peak hour bus.

You all know them.. The ones that you meet when you get to your stop and you wait behind them thinking they are queuing to get off but aren't..

If the downstairs is full with standing passengers that refuse to move?? I would not take on anymore Passengers.

(not a bus driver but 5 members of my family are).

Yes very good point and might well be the case in those situations.

However I think a bit of training in how to communicate to passengers courteously but firmly won't do any harm. You see it in other cities (London being a good example). There's a reason why they have a PA on the bus. Maybe in those situation the driver could make a simple announcement like this: "Could some of those passengers standing downstairs please move to upstairs as there is there are a few free seats available there. This will help your fellow passengers in getting onto the bus and getting to their destination the next few bus stops. Thank you."

I think doing nothing and just driving on and ignoring and leaving people in the cold is a bit of a jobsworth approach.

LXFlyer

MuffinsDa wrote: »

Yes very good point and might well be the case in those situations.

However I think a bit of training in how to communicate to passengers courteously but firmly won't do any harm. You see it in other cities (London being a good example). There's a reason why they have a PA on the bus. Maybe in those situation the driver could make a simple announcement like this: "Could some of those passengers standing downstairs please move to upstairs as there is there are a few free seats available there. This will help your fellow passengers in getting onto the bus and getting to their destination the next few bus stops. Thank you."

I think doing nothing and just driving on and ignoring and leaving people in the cold is a bit of a jobsworth approach.

Plenty of drivers do precisely that but people will still ignore them.

Kyleboy

MuffinsDa wrote: »

Oh right. Must be another Kyleboy then:






Now can we get back on topic?

Must be, i have never took a picture of anyone doing there job?

SteM

lxflyer wrote: »

Plenty of drivers do precisely that but people will still ignore them.

Yup, I've heard announcements like this before. It's usually followed by the passangers staring at each other like frightened rabbits. Like it was a revelation to them that there was an upstairs on a bus.

MuffinsDa

lxflyer wrote: »

Plenty of drivers do precisely that but people will still ignore them.

Yep, some do, but I think in general they don't communicate as much (and as clearly) as they should.

But my comments were in response to the previous post (quoted in my post) about ignoring waiting passengers and driving on. I suggested that this would be a better alternative. Which some drivers do. And some don't!

SteM

MuffinsDa wrote: »

Yep, some do, but I think in general they don't communicate as much (and as clearly) as they should.

But my comments were in response to the previous post (quoted in my post) about ignoring waiting passengers and driving on. I suggested that this would be a better alternative. Which some drivers do. And some don't!

It really doesn’t matter whether they do or not to be honest. They're just ignored anyway. We need a change passenger habit in this instance imo. But it seems like you're unhappy with almost every aspect of Dublin bus anyway so you'll just argue the point.

lil5

SteM wrote: »

It really doesn’t matter whether they do or not to be honest. They're just ignored anyway. We need a change passenger habit in this instance imo. But it seems like you're unhappy with almost every aspect of Dublin bus anyway so you'll just argue the point.

Is it too much to ask to have consistent well trained driver behaviour?

Don't leave terminus too early.
Drive at a safe speed and obey traffic lights.
Open the middle doors where required.
Make clear and audible announcments as appropriate.

There already have been a number of great improvements in the driver behaviour in recent years (for example the behaviour towards cyclists).


The ticketing / leapcard nonsense should be totally removed from the drivers tasks.

MuffinsDa

SteM wrote: »

It really doesn’t matter whether they do or not to be honest. They're just ignored anyway.

I don't think so. I'd say if they make those sort of announcement properly it would have a considerable effect. In this specific case people might have assumed there's no room upstairs. You are suggesting all customers should be treated as imbeciles just because some may prefer to stand downstairs.

I do not have problem with everything DB. The fact that I'm making these points here is an attempt to improve it. However I do have problem with people defending the indefensible instead of taking a relevant point and trying to make improvements.

cdebru

MuffinsDa wrote: »

What?!
What an Irish solution to a simple problem!

So you think it's ok for them to illegally (is it illegal actually?!) open the doors completely outside the bus stop (all this while the bus stop is empty), in order to avoid having to tell 2-3 passengers that "the bus is full, sorry?". Also, you think it's ok to leave 5 people in the cold so that the driver doesn't have to go through the inconvenience of slightly confronting people? Do they not get basic training in this sort of stuff, i.e. how to be firm/assertive but polite/courteous?

They get training that the best way out of confrontation is to avoid it in the first place, see you seem like a perfectly reasonable person that would appreciate the courtesy of an simple explanation, however other people are not so perfectly reasonable and after the driver has endured a couple of Mexican stand offs and had to waste the time of the Gardai to get the bus moving again he or she will quickly learn that discretion is the better part of valor, and life is much simpler to avoid confrontation where possible.

cdebru

lil5 wrote: »

Is it too much to ask to have consistent well trained driver behaviour?

Don't leave terminus too early.
Drive at a safe speed and obey traffic lights.
Open the middle doors where required.
Make clear and audible announcments as appropriate.

There already have been a number of great improvements in the driver behaviour in recent years (for example the behaviour towards cyclists).


The ticketing / leapcard nonsense should be totally removed from the drivers tasks.

All Dublin Bus vehicles have GPS, the company knows to the second what time any bus leaves the terminus, IF they leave early it is because they are instructed to do so in my experience, or sometimes what customers assume is a bus leaving early is actually an earlier departure arriving and leaving late.

Dublin Bus drivers have an excellent safety record in general, I'd agree there are always a few bad apples but they are most definitely a tiny minority.

Traffic lights are usually set up for private vehicles who would have passengers seat belted in and shorter breaking distance unlike a bus, which have no seat belts and often have passengers standing or tackling a staircase, it is not always safe to stop and drivers have to make a judgement to continue as the lesser of 2 evils even though a car would be easily able to stop at a similar distance and speed.

Open the middle doors when required and safe to do so.

I agree on the last one, I think DB as a company have been piss poor at emphasising to their staff the importance of communicating to their passengers, an awful lot of time wasted on fad motivational speakers that would have been better spent, showing drivers and practising how to make clear audible announcements.

MuffinsDa

cdebru wrote: »

I'd agree there are always a few bad apples but they are most definitely a tiny minority.

Totally agree, the whole point in these posts and compalints/feedback is to get those bad apples to correct their behaviour.

cdebru wrote: »

I agree on the last one, I think DB as a company have been piss poor at emphasising to their staff the importance of communicating to their passengers, an awful lot of time wasted on fad motivational speakers that would have been better spent, showing drivers and practising how to make clear audible announcements.

Exactly! Couldn't phrase it better.

lil5

cdebru wrote: »

...
Traffic lights are usually set up for private vehicles who would have passengers seat belted in and shorter breaking distance unlike a bus, which have no seat belts and often have passengers standing or tackling a staircase, it is not always safe to stop and drivers have to make a judgement to continue as the lesser of 2 evils even though a car would be easily able to stop at a similar distance and speed.
...

You might find that red lights apply the same way to everyone.
There's no exceptions for DB driver judgement calls.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

lil5 wrote: »

You might find that red lights apply the same way to everyone.
There's no exceptions for DB driver judgement calls.

There is a part of legislation somewhere that goes along the lines of

"Red light means stop, all vehicles must stop unless it is unsafe to do so."

Im on the phone so maybe someone can find that piece

cdebru

lil5 wrote: »

You might find that red lights apply the same way to everyone.
There's no exceptions for DB driver judgement calls.

Didn't say there was, merely an explanation that stopping a bus with unbelted and standing passengers is not as easy as stopping a car, but lights are set up with private cars in mind, amber lights usually allow for a cars stopping distance, a bus also can't take of and turn as quick either, which often results in other traffic being given a green light before a bus could clear the junction, even though it entered the junction on a green light, the same is also true for cyclists where insufficient time to clear junctions is given before a green light is given to other traffic.

cdebru

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

There is a part of legislation somewhere that goes along the lines of

"Red light means stop, all vehicles must stop unless it is unsafe to do so."

Im on the phone so maybe someone can find that piece

That's amber light, red light means stop, I don't think there is anything about unsafe to stop on a red that's what an amber is supposed to be for, I was merely pointing out that the timing on amber lights are set up for private cars and vehicles were drivers and passengers are belted in not set up for a vehicle with people unbelted, standing, walking up or down a narrow staircase, carrying shopping, holding a child etc etc.

lil5

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

There is a part of legislation somewhere that goes along the lines of

"Red light means stop, all vehicles must stop unless it is unsafe to do so."

Im on the phone so maybe someone can find that piece

From the ROTR on the RSA website

A red light means ‘stop’. If the light is red as you approach it, you must not go beyond the stop line at that light or, if there is no stop line, beyond the light.

...

An amber light means that you must not go beyond the stop line or, if there is no stop line, beyond the light. However, you may go on if you are so close to the line or the light when the amber light first appears that stopping would be dangerous.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

cdebru wrote: »

That's amber light, red light means stop, I don't think there is anything about unsafe to stop on a red that's what an amber is supposed to be for, I was merely pointing out that the timing on amber lights are set up for private cars and vehicles were drivers and passengers are belted in not set up for a vehicle with people unbelted, standing, walking up or down a narrow staircase, carrying shopping, holding a child etc etc.

Thats my bad. Sorry about that.

I do agree with you though that it is very difficult to stop a bus over a car and there are countless lights throughout Dublin with terrible timing on them like that

MuffinsDa

Regarding original question, here's a plausible explanation that I heard from a driver today:
while loading passengers people move upstairs to sit but the upper deck is full. Those people start to come back downstairs and suddenly the bus is overcrowded. At the next stop if 3 people get off the driver wouldn't allow someone on just to create space.
That does make sense!

cdebru

MuffinsDa wrote: »

Regarding original question, here's a plausible explanation that I heard from a driver today:
while loading passengers people move upstairs to sit but the upper deck is full. Those people start to come back downstairs and suddenly the bus is overcrowded. At the next stop if 3 people get off the driver wouldn't allow someone on just to create space.
That does make sense!

That happens all the time, loading a bus is a very inexact science while there are passenger numbers given on each bus, they are not an exact figure some are complete fiction, people with back packs, heavier clothes, heavier people, people who appear to be allergic to soap and water, etc, it is also easy for a driver to allow more people on than ideal particularly at a busier stop, from people going upstairs and coming back down or while the driver is distracted while dealing with another passenger for example.