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Dragons vs Munster, Sun 4 Dec 2:30pm; S4C

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    #122
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    jm08 wrote: »
    Pat Howard with Leicester.

    He had several seasons as a backs coach before becoming a head coach tho.


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    #123
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    aimee1 wrote: »
    He had several seasons as a backs coach before becoming a head coach tho.

    He was a player/backs coach for a season (2001), went back to Australia after 1 season to try and make the Wallabies for the World Cup, didn't make it, went to Clermont and then retired in 2004. Back to Leicester as backs coach for a year before being appointed head coach in 2005 until he went back to Australia in 2007.

    Very similar experience to Leo who was even coached by Howard.


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    #124
    Crimsonforce
    Registered Users Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭Crimsonforce


    look i think we all want the coaches to do well. I don't think its fair by the provinces to put a guy in charge of a multi million euro organization without some experience.

    these are big businesses and without success they will not thrive as we can see with attendances.. This is why experience is so important.

    Townsend even going into Glasgow, Glasgow were poor anyway so no one was expecting much..

    where as Leinster, Munster have been very successful and the weight of expectations were far higher, therefore more is expected.


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    #125
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Crimsonforce wrote: »
    look i think we all want the coaches to do well. I don't think its fair by the provinces to put a guy in charge of a multi million euro organization without some experience.

    these are big businesses and without success they will not thrive as we can see with attendances.. This is why experience is so important.

    Townsend even going into Glasgow, Glasgow were poor anyway so no one was expecting much..

    where as Leinster, Munster have been very successful and the weight of expectations were far higher, therefore more is expected.

    Both Leinster & Munster have very experienced CEOs to worry about the business side of things. In fact Garret Fitz was also a very successful coach in his own right coaching Munster to a win over a Bob Dwyer coached Wallabies.


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    #126
    Crimsonforce
    Registered Users Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭Crimsonforce


    You can have a great CEO but if the team are not winning , it makes no difference


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    #127
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    jm08 wrote: »
    He was a player/backs coach for a season (2001), went back to Australia after 1 season to try and make the Wallabies for the World Cup, didn't make it, went to Clermont and then retired in 2004. Back to Leicester as backs coach for a year before being appointed head coach in 2005 until he went back to Australia in 2007.

    Very similar experience to Leo who was even coached by Howard.

    so he had several seasons as a backs coach before becoming a head coach?


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    #128
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    aimee1 wrote: »
    so he had several seasons as a backs coach before becoming a head coach?

    2 seasons. A lot less experience than Foley anyway.


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    #129
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Crimsonforce wrote: »
    You can have a great CEO but if the team are not winning , it makes no difference

    You said that the coach is in charge of multi million euro organisations. My point is that they are not alone and that Foley has a fair bit of experience from a commerical & coaching point of view around him. For instance, Garret Fitz seems to do all the player retention and recruitment negotiations.


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    #130
    Crimsonforce
    Registered Users Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭Crimsonforce


    jm08 wrote: »
    You said that the coach is in charge of multi million euro organisations. My point is that they are not alone and that Foley has a fair bit of experience from a commerical & coaching point of view around him. For instance, Garret Fitz seems to do all the player retention and recruitment negotiations.


    maybe i didn't explain myself, so thats my fault. what i was trying to say is that the rugby club as a whole is a big multi million euro operation and in order for it to be profitable and grow , it needs to be successful on the pitch. having a great CEO with all the good will in the world cannot turn things around on the pitch.. foley and cullen need to do that


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    #131
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Track record and experience are important, but ultimately a poor coach with a bit of experience is still a poor coach. Coaching one team well doesn't always translate to another environment either. There are heaps of variables and experience is only an indicator of past success, not future.

    Not to mention that coaching styles eventually get left behind (Kidney being a prime example of this).

    Just because someone is new to coaching, doesn't preclude them from being a success. The best manager I ever had, had never managed before and I learned more from them than I did from people with 15 years experience. Cullen may turn out to be a terrific coach, Foley too though at the moment Munster look a complete shambles.

    The one thing I'm quite interested in, is why Southern Hemisphere coaches typically seem to get a lot out of Irish teams in particular. I know there are a good few that haven't worked out, but Cheika, Schmidt, Lam seem to have been a cut above anything produced locally.


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    #132
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Crimsonforce wrote: »
    maybe i didn't explain myself, so thats my fault. what i was trying to say is that the rugby club as a whole is a big multi million euro operation and in order for it to be profitable and grow , it needs to be successful on the pitch. having a great CEO with all the good will in the world cannot turn things around on the pitch.. foley and cullen, their assistant coaches and players all need to do that

    Fixed that for you.


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    #133
    Rattlehead_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,882 ✭✭✭Rattlehead_ie


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The one thing I'm quite interested in, is why Southern Hemisphere coaches typically seem to get a lot out of Irish teams in particular. I know there are a good few that haven't worked out, but Cheika, Schmidt, Lam seem to have been a cut above anything produced locally.

    I would say this is because the Irish, in general, have good ball handling skills. Whether this is due to having played GAA at a young age or for whatever reason you may give it, we have it. Now mix that with the southern game and how its coached, which is a more free flowing, off-loading dynamic game it means that the southern style of play mixed with our hands and ball skills is a great combo.


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    #134
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Crimsonforce wrote: »
    maybe i didn't explain myself, so thats my fault. what i was trying to say is that the rugby club as a whole is a big multi million euro operation and in order for it to be profitable and grow , it needs to be successful on the pitch. having a great CEO with all the good will in the world cannot turn things around on the pitch.. foley and cullen need to do that

    CEO recruits the coaches & conducts player negotiations. Garret Fitz would have had a large say in whether POC was allowed leave for instance which would have a major affect on how the team is set up.

    Munster posted a photo on twitter of Nucifora visiting Garret Fitz, so I would say a lot is very dependent on the Munster CEO as to how successful Munster is anyway and how Nucifora is persuaded to allow certain signings.


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    #135
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The one thing I'm quite interested in, is why Southern Hemisphere coaches typically seem to get a lot out of Irish teams in particular. I know there are a good few that haven't worked out, but Cheika, Schmidt, Lam seem to have been a cut above anything produced locally.

    Kidney is as successful if not more so than any of them. Lets not forget that Cheika got the sack from Stade Francais as well. Lam really hasn't done anything yet (and he got the sack from the Blues). EOS is way more successful than him anyway.


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    #136
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    jm08 wrote: »
    CEO recruits the coaches & conducts player negotiations. Garret Fitz would have had a large say in whether POC was allowed leave for instance which would have a major affect on how the team is set up.

    Munster posted a photo on twitter of Nucifora visiting Garret Fitz, so I would say a lot is very dependent on the Munster CEO as to how successful Munster is anyway and how Nucifora is persuaded to allow certain signings.



    Unless your toulon etc success on the pitch gets the crowds and sponsors in which generates the revenue to keep making the marquee signings to allow the success to continue. The CEO influence will vary from club to club depending on how they are set up. In ireland they have less of an impact because a lot of the money comes through the national side


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    #137
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    aimee1 wrote: »
    Unless your toulon etc success on the pitch gets the crowds and sponsors in which generates the revenue to keep making the marquee signings to allow the success to continue. The CEO influence will vary from club to club depending on how they are set up. In ireland they have less of an impact because a lot of the money comes through the national side

    But the CEO's hire the coaches and players that deliver that success. They also negotiate with the IRFU. Everyone though David Humphreys was the business when with Ulster as he did some really good recruiting of players for instance and they did get to a HCup final. T


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    #138
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    jm08 wrote: »
    But the CEO's hire the coaches and players that deliver that success. They also negotiate with the IRFU. Everyone though David Humphreys was the business when with Ulster as he did some really good recruiting of players for instance and they did get to a HCup final. T

    The coaches at ulster, leinster and munster are largely working with the best local players with a few SH guys thrown in. They are not given a blank sheet to write 40 names on for the CEO to go and deliver.

    The CEO/DOR role has its place but ultimately its down to the coach, which can be hit and miss as has been seen, and the local players which in the irish system has zero to do with the CEO.


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    #139
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,085 ✭✭✭✭phog


    aimee1 wrote: »
    The coaches at ulster, leinster and munster are largely working with the best local players with a few SH guys thrown in. They are not given a blank sheet to write 40 names on for the CEO to go and deliver.

    The CEO/DOR role has its place but ultimately its down to the coach, which can be hit and miss as has been seen, and the local players which in the irish system has zero to do with the CEO.

    There's an argument that could be made on how a province nurture underage players is the responsibility of the CEO. A provincial coach is responsible for a group of players, the CEO of a province is responsible for much more than the squad and in my opinion that includes the development of players.


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    #140
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    phog wrote: »
    There's an argument that could be made on how a province nurture underage players is the responsibility of the CEO. A provincial coach is responsible for a group of players, the CEO of a province is responsible for much more than the squad and in my opinion that includes the development of players.


    CEO has overall responsibility for the set up from top to bottom but the raw material coming into his system determines how far they can progress, the CEO could have the best coaches in place and the players coming through still might not come up to previous levels.


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