Dragons vs Munster, Sun 4 Dec 2:30pm; S4C

Crimsonforce

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He had never had a head coach job. You're changing your question now.

Gregor Townsend's first head coach job was at Glasgow. Is there some reason he doesn't count as well?

Townsend spent a year or so in nz learning his trade.. he said it was invaluable to him..

Chorus_suck

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irishbucsfan

Chorus_suck wrote: »

I never mentioned "head coach" specifically. Have a read of my question again.

So what did you mean? You said first timers. If you mean first timer to any coaching job then that certainly doesn't apply to Foley.

You're trying to paint with a very broad brush but the truth is that some rookie coaches do superbly (Gibbes at Leinster if you don't mean Head Coach) and some fail. Some assistants turn into excellent head coaches and some don't, noone should be pretending they know any of those things in advance.

Dat second half. Worst performance I can remember from Munster in quite a long time. Two weeks on the trot to play like that is a bit worrying but at the same time the league position is still solid but performances like that and it could end up like Leinster's season last year.

kub

molloyjh wrote: »

I think talk of Cullen being found out is very, very premature. Foley has at least had a full season in charge and hasn't had the same disruption to his squad for the RWC so we're in a far better place to make judgements on him. There would definitely seem to be issues, but they did well enough last season and are still in the top 4 this season as well in a good position to qualify from their pool in Europe. Obviously that doesn't make everything ok (after all we saw what happened to Leinster the last 2 seasons) but given the fact that the squad is a long way off what it was 10 years ago are Munster really underperforming?

Just to throw in the equation that we had POC last season and not this season, he would have been influential on the pitch

Chorus_suck

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molloyjh

Chorus_suck wrote: »

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It was reported at the time that Leinster were disappointed with the calibre who applied for the job.

And Leinster would not always be attractive. Coming into a RWC year they were due to lose the best part of 20 players. They regularly have to make do without their internationals, which MOC wasn't at all slow to point out over the years. There are huge restrictions on what players the provinces can bring in. And despite all of this there are huge expectations year after year. To the point that they are willing to fire coaches who don't live up to those expectations.

So when you factor that in along with the incredibly short notice then top quality candidates were always going to be hard to come by. In many ways it was the same at Munster.

The above is simply reality. A lot of Irish people seem to have some romantic notions of where we stand in global rugby. But can you name a single quality candidate that was available, never mind interested?

irishbucsfan

Chorus_suck wrote: »

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This is all over the place. I only brought him up because you said this:

Chorus_suck wrote: »

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I'm happy to continue if you can suggest one reason why the example of Townsend doesn't apply to Foley.

former total

Chorus_suck wrote: »

Respectfully I disagree, and I would suggest that it applies to both Foley and Cullen. Both lack any significant, top level coaching experience ... to say otherwise is a nonsense

Foley was assistant coach for years. You seem to be unaware of this.

Triumvirate

It was reported in the media that Leinster struggled to attract the profile of coach they were looking for and were disappointed with the applicants for the job. Not exactly a secret nor anything that isn't widely believed to be true.

Chorus_suck

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phog

I was happy enough with our first half. Unlucky not to have got at least one of two near misses. That would have given us a bit of a boost.

Our defence close to the rucks was a 100 times better thus week but we're still being turned over too easily or penalised at rucks.

Dragons were lucky not to lose a player to the bin for a silly collision with a player in the air. If GdvH got two weeks then they'll surely be a similar ban in this case.

Our 2nd half was piss poor and Dragons seemed to sense blood and were unlucky to be only a few points ahead with 5 mins left on the clock. If Zebo had intercepted that pass then Dragons could well have been looking at a LBP.

I thought Rory Scannell and Buckley had good games, Tyler Bleyendaal was more than a tad rusty. I think Amorosino was a bit unlucky, he beat the defender but then Cudd (?) had chased back and got him from his blindside. Great tackle to be fair.

Disappointing to leave without a LBP.

Chorus_suck

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Triumvirate

Christ, dig up.

irishbucsfan

Chorus_suck wrote: »

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Go on?

Chorus_suck

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irishbucsfan

Chorus_suck wrote: »

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The answer to all of those questions is yes.

I asked you multiple times to give an example as to why the example of Townsend doesn't apply to Foley, and you haven't done that. It seems you're actually the one evading that question and now you're walking away so as to escape the hole you've dug for yourself (to use the above posters conceit). If it's so obvious it should be easy enough to elaborate.

Chorus_suck

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phog

WTV's blog of the game.

irishbucsfan

Chorus_suck wrote: »

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irishbucsfan wrote: »

The answer to all of those questions is yes.

Still haven't got even a hint of an answer to my own question though, how strange!

Bridge93

I still don't know whether this is just about head coaches or not. I'll assume it is for the sake of this as otherwise it can be manipulated any number of ways.

Off the top of my head as I don't want to go searching endless names:

Dai Youngs first senior coaching job was the Cardiff Blues. Went pretty well.

Richard Cockerill had a few years as the forwards coach and interim head coach before being made Leicester permanent head coach.

Was Mark McCalls first senior job Ulster when they won the Celtic League?

Conor O Shea? I presume he may have worked before Quins but I'll leave him here.

Rob Baxter as Exeter head coach?

Philippe Saint Andre began as head coach at Gloucester when they did quite well.

Bernard Laporte led Stade Francais from French division 3 to top 14 champions in like 4 years or something in his first role I think.

Bernard Jackman work professionally before head coach at Grenoble?

No idea about Ibanez at Bordeaux.

I believe I remember someone saying Jake Whites first professional job was the Springboks who went on to win a World Cup although I find that a bit unlikely.

Guy Noves before Toulouse?

Some of the more knowledgeable and older posters may help fill gaps or reveal wrong bits

pastense

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The answer to all of those questions is yes.

I asked you multiple times to give an example as to why the example of Townsend doesn't apply to Foley, and you haven't done that. It seems you're actually the one evading that question and now you're walking away so as to escape the hole you've dug for yourself (to use the above posters conceit). If it's so obvious it should be easy enough to elaborate.

The Coaching job isn't just about experience. Comparing Foley and Townend based on the road they've travelled is just a waste of time.
Did Townsend ever send an e-mail to the whole squad making allegations about certain players. I doubt it.
Did Townsend search around among former team mates who were at a loose end to fill the coaching positions. I doubt that too.
Did he ever drop a player to a peripheral role because of a rumour the player was engaged in talks on a new contract. No.
Did he ever talk up a player who was clearly not up to the standard and canvass for a National contract to the detriment of the player who was engaged in contract talks. No.
Did he ever show a connection with his players on a personal level, like a genuine friendship and respect. Yes.
Did he ever resent his players gaining recognition for their outstanding ability. No.
I'm afraid comparisons between Foley and Townsend are useless.
But then Townsend can be happy with his own playing achievements.
He done it all and has nothing to regret or resent.

Pink Fairy

Criticism of Foley is wide of the mark. Not his fault Zebo did a double movement, that Amorisini didn't place the ball on the ground and, that players were trying stupid offloads and not behaving as you would normally expect.
Next week is the acid test for the team, until then, I'm not too worried

molloyjh

Chorus_suck wrote: »

Do you have a link to that?

You have previously claimed that Leinster "simply didn't get the candidates". Again, I'll ask how you know this. What candidates actually applied? What was the recruitment process? If you don't know the specific answers to these questions, and you are simply relying on a vague quote that "Leinster were disappointed with the calibre who applied for the job" (that you have not as yet provided any reference/link to) then I seriously doubt the credibility of the point you are making.

I'll be honest here and say given you're attitude I'm not at all inclined to bother my backside digging up the links. You're offering absolutely nothing to this conversation other than simple opinion. And opinion that is based on absolutely nothing at all.

Chorus_suck wrote: »

Most top tier teams would be in the exact same position. This does not make any job less attractive.

Outside of Leinster only Glasgow have a comparable number of internationals and they don't have a player welfare system like ours, nor do they have the same restrictions on imports. So no, most top tier teams are quite definitively not in the same position.

Chorus_suck wrote: »

Simply not true. Both the Munster and Leinster HC jobs will always be very highly desirable.

Why? Because you say so? At least I could back my opinion up with a bit of logic. You just seem to think that if you say it, then it's true.

Chorus_suck wrote: »

Can you name even one single head coach in Rugby who has as little coaching experience as either Cullen or Foley who can be classes as a success?

Foley had plenty of coaching experience at Munster and even at Ireland before taking over at Munster. His experience would actually be relatively comparable to Townsends even though Townsend was assistant coach at international level rather than club level.

As for Cullen I did have, and still do have, concerns over his experience. But at least I have the good grace to give him a shot before judging him.

jm08

Crimsonforce wrote: »

Townsend spent a year or so in nz learning his trade.. he said it was invaluable to him..

I don't think he spent a year in NZ.

“I visited the Queensland Reds on a couple of occasions. I had two separate visits to them, the second time was when they were on the way to winning their 2011 Super Rugby title, so it was great learning.
“Probably the most crucial learning I had was just when I got announced as head coach for Glasgow [in 2012]. I went to spend a couple of weeks with the Chiefs. Being in their environment was great, that was the first year they won Super Rugby.

I think you will find that Cullen & Foley has done something similar, spending time in NZ & Australia.

jm08

Chorus_suck wrote: »

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Pat Howard with Leicester.