"Whatever should we do with lawless cyclists?"

Roadhawk

I had a suggestion in my last thread to start this post and i thought it was a great idea.

With the increase of cyclists on Irish roads and the noticeable unlawfulness that is coming with it, what should we do?

Fines are now being issued as a result of laws being broken. The Irish Times have a very interesting article that includes a poll on whether you agree that cyclists should be fined or not.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cyclists-face-on-the-spot-fines-for-seven-road-traffic-offences-1.2270816

3102derek

Whatever should we do with lawless motorists, pedesterians, motorcyclists, taxis, white van drivers..... the list goes on and on.

Martypants1

What pisses me off is the ones that think they're a pedestrian when it suits them. No, you have to stop at the red light alongside the cars.

wally79

Go to the search bar. Search for cyclists. You will find this thread 100 times.

Carawaystick

1) Quantify the lawlessness before putting any more pixels on screen.
2) Get hard numbers on the amount of laws broken, the number of cyclists breaking the laws;
3) Quantify the maximum damage that breaking those laws will produce.
4) Quantify the cost to society of that lawbreaking.
5) Quantify the cost to society of any measures you propose, to be presented with the proposals.
6) Quantify the benefit to society.
7) Translate "De Minimis Non Curat Lex" to english from latin

if 5>6 then stop.

triggermortis

Martypants1 wrote: »

What pisses me off is the ones that think they're a pedestrian when it suits them. No, you have to stop at the red light alongside the cars.

If a cyclist gets off his/her bike and walks with it, then they ARE a pedestrian. Trouble is, some don't get off their bikes and it annoys people. Some people in cars/vans/lorries etc don't give cyclists enough room, and that's beyond annoying, it's dangerous.
Some pedestrians would rather look at their phones instead of where they are walking..
There are idiots on/in every mode of transport and if more people were more considerate to other road/path users, things would be less stressful for everyone

RobbieTheRobber

Roadhawk wrote: »

I had a suggestion in my last thread to start this post and i thought it was a great idea.

With the increase of cyclists on Irish roads and the noticeable unlawfulness that is coming with it, what should we do?

Fines are now being issued as a result of laws being broken. The Irish Times have a very interesting article that includes a poll on whether you agree that cyclists should be fined or not.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cyclists-face-on-the-spot-fines-for-seven-road-traffic-offences-1.2270816

This was great big news back in July. Well done for getting around to reading it now.

Since then some cyclists have been fined, has there been a noticeable decline in unlawfulness as you perceive it?

cgcsb

Facilities is the solution, I get up on the path the odd time when it's quite, not because I'm trying to mow down pedestrians but because it's sometimes a safer option than the roadway.

Roadhawk

wally79 wrote: »

Go to the search bar. Search for cyclists. You will find this thread 100 times.

Must have some truth in it being such a popular topic. Has it gone viral?

RobbieTheRobber

Roadhawk wrote: »

Must have some truth in it being such a popular topic. Has it gone viral?

:D:D:D:D

Your new to the internet then I take it?

Roadhawk

cgcsb wrote: »

Facilities is the solution, I get up on the path the odd time when it's quite, not because I'm trying to mow down pedestrians but because it's sometimes a safer option than the roadway.

I think cyclists should be allowed on pathways for safety. The Irish road network is not ready for unlawful cyclists. Most cyclists consider themselves pedestrians anyway.

Saipanne

triggermortis wrote: »

If a cyclist gets off his/her bike and walks with it, then they ARE a pedestrian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHtCNhABlLw

Roadhawk

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

This was great big news back in July. Well done for getting around to reading it now.

Since then some cyclists have been fined, has there been a noticeable decline in unlawfulness as you perceive it?

Absolutely not which is leading me to believe that cyclists could not give a damn about any other road users.

Seaswimmer

Yawn. What an original post..

Oh. wait..

Roadhawk This message is hidden because Roadhawk is on your ignore list.

RobbieTheRobber

Roadhawk wrote: »

Absolutely not which is leading me to believe that cyclists could not give a damn about any other road users.

Yeah I concur, with the countless dead and severely injured left lying on the streets as a result of cyclists. We have to ask why is the government not doing more to stop them?
Surely if we look at statistics we must find that cyclists are the most dangerous element in society today and so worthy of the states full attention before any other trivial matters are dealt with.

Roadhawk

3102derek wrote: »

Whatever should we do with lawless motorists, pedesterians, motorcyclists, taxis, white van drivers..... the list goes on and on.

Well what has been done for motorists is testing, licensing, fines, penalty points, bans and legislation. Wouldn't it be great if cyclists were counted as a an equal road user at all times and not just when it suits them.

cgcsb

I find that where there are cycle lanes, i.e. dotted white line on the edge of the road I'm often forced onto a footpath because other people have decided that the cycle lane is actually a left turning lane for cars or a taxi rank or parking or a loading area.

RobbieTheRobber

Roadhawk wrote: »

Well what has been done for motorists is testing, licensing, fines, penalty points, bans and legislation. Wouldn't it be great if cyclists were counted as a an equal road user at all times and not just when it suits them.

So as we have implemented all those things for drivers of motorised vehicles I assume this has eradicated all accidents and deaths caused by said drivers?

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So as we have implemented all those things for drivers of motorised vehicles I assume this has eradicated all accidents and deaths caused by said drivers?

I wouldn't usually be bothered, but that is not a correct understanding. What tests and licences and registrations create is ACCOUNTABILITY

Roadhawk

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So as we have implemented all those things for drivers of motorised vehicles I assume this has eradicated all accidents and deaths caused by said drivers?

Absolutely not. But the typical laws that were being broken be these motorists have reduced since these measures were implemented. Likewise the laws being implemented for cyclists should follow the same success.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't usually be bothered, but that is not a correct understanding. What tests and licences and registrations create is ACCOUNTABILITY

So are you saying that licensing or registration of cyclists is not likely to reduce the number of offenses committed by said group?

Roadhawk

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't usually be bothered, but that is not a correct understanding. What tests and licences and registrations create is ACCOUNTABILITY

Pure sense!

Flatzie_poo

Roadhawk wrote: »

I think cyclists should be allowed on pathways for safety. The Irish road network is not ready for unlawful cyclists. Most cyclists consider themselves pedestrians anyway.

Roadhawk wrote: »

Wouldn't it be great if cyclists were counted as a an equal road user at all times and not just when it suits them.

Why do you want them counted as an equal road user, when you just said you want them on the paths??

Roadhawk

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

Why do you want them counted as an equal road user, when you just said you want them on the paths??

Yep...off the road or counted as equal. either way the nonsense has to be stopped.

07Lapierre

Roadhawk wrote: »

Wouldn't it be great if cyclists were counted as a an equal road user at all times and not just when it suits them.

I agree 100%! it would be great! the sooner that happens the better. the ROTR are for ALL road users!.. Gardaí please ENFORCE them!

Pinch Flat

OP, can you post any solid data on licencing for cyclists in other countries, the before an after picture of how this "lawlessness" was magically eradicated by licencing? And what impact does it have on road injuries / fatalities? We still have licenced drivers, of whom a fair proportion:

Ignore road traffic law / ROTR
Can't use the infrastructure provided them, particularly roundabouts, motorways and traffic lights;
Chose to drink and drive;
Kill 200 annually;
Injure many thousands more

What exact problem are you trying to resolve, other than trying to remove cyclists from the road?

Or is Ireland going to be a trail blazer and introduce a pointless licencing system?

cajonlardo

Roadhawk wrote: »

Absolutely not which is leading me to believe that cyclists could not give a damn about any other road users.

http://road.cc/content/news/172326-insurance-firm-offer-cyclists-cheaper-car-insurance-%E2%80%93-because-theyre-better

Insurance firms deal in cold hard facts. (Probably why my accident free for 35 years motor insurance costs me more than ten times what my insurance for cycling costs.)

Roadhawk

cajonlardo wrote: »

http://road.cc/content/news/172326-insurance-firm-offer-cyclists-cheaper-car-insurance-%E2%80%93-because-theyre-better

Insurance firms deal in cold hard facts. (Probably why my accident free for 35 years motor insurance costs me more than ten times what my insurance for cycling costs.)

I have to say that 35 years accident free is impressive and should be recognized by insurance companies and reflected in the premium etc. I agree that insurance companies deal with facts and the biggest fact of all is that motorists are legally obliged to have insurance on the vehicle the are driving so why wouldn't insurance companies charge a little extra when they can. Do you think that the price of insuring a bike would stay the same if it was a legal requirement?

just for the record i completely agree with the increase of premiums were in the event of accidents.

Pinch Flat

Roadhawk wrote: »

I agree that insurance companies deal with facts and the biggest fact of all is that motorists are legally obliged to have insurance on the vehicle the are driving so why wouldn't insurance companies charge a little extra when they can. Do you think that the price of insuring a bike would stay the same if it was a legal requirement?.

But you're no just insuring the vehicle, be it a car or bike - the cost of repalcing these is relatively small in an accident.

It's the resultant injury / loss of life resulting from accidents that are a lot more expensive for an insurance company. Cars cause more mayhem on the roads, and the medical and settlement costs arising from car accidents are a lot higher. This is reflected in the insurance premiums people pay. Bikes don't.

schemingbohemia

What is nonsense, is this thread. Should be in After Hours with the children.

On my walk here, I passed 6 cars driving through the bus gate at College Green and 20 cars and vans driving up the cycle lane on Stephen's Green South. Obviously something must be done for these people too.

Your user name is well chosen, though I might change Road to something else.

Roadhawk

Pinch Flat wrote: »

OP, can you post any solid data on licencing for cyclists in other countries, the before an after picture of how this "lawlessness" was magically eradicated by licencing? And what impact sis it have on road injuries / fatalities? We still have licenced drivers, of whom a fair proportion:

Ignore road traffic law / ROTR
Can't use the infrastructure provided them, particularly roundabouts, motorways and traffic lights;
Chose to drink and drive;
Kill 200 annually;
Injure many thousands more

What exact problem are you trying to resolve, other than trying to remove cyclists from the road?

Or is Ireland going to be a trail blazer and introduce a pointless licencing system?

I agree with the points you have made around the actions of motorists but again many (not all) cyclists can be tared with the same brush.

I have no intention of removing cyclists from the road completely only the ones that are continuous law breakers. They are pests to other road users.

(My opinion)
One day our generation will be gone and the roads will have evolved. The same way horses were phased out as a main mode of transport so to will cycling.

RainyDay

Martypants1 wrote: »

What pisses me off is the ones that think they're a pedestrian when it suits them. No, you have to stop at the red light alongside the cars.

So the cyclists should stop alongside these cars, like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc5VGuJvOVk

Roadhawk

schemingbohemia wrote: »

What is nonsense, is this thread. Should be in After Hours with the children.

On my walk here, I passed 6 cars driving through the bus gate at College Green and 20 cars and vans driving up the cycle lane on Stephen's Green South. Obviously something must be done for these people too.

Your user name is well chosen, though I might change Road to something else.

for the love of god where are the Gards??? The fact that i have been expressing myself about cyclists does not in any way mean that i condone motorists being idiots.

Cycling lanes in ireland are a lame attempt in comparison to other countries.

RobbieTheRobber

Roadhawk wrote: »

I agree with the points you have made around the actions of motorists but again many (not all) cyclists can be tared with the same brush.

I have no intention of removing cyclists from the road completely only the ones that are continuous law breakers. They are pests to other road users.

(My opinion)
One day our generation will be gone and the roads will have evolved. The same way horses were phased out as a main mode of transport so to will cycling.

Isn't it more likely that cycling will remain for the recreational and health benefits and driver controlled cars will disappear?

coolbeans

Pretty clueless OP. On my mile and a half walk to work this morning I witnessed speeding, red light breaking, amber gambling, footpath parking, inoperative lights, one guy clearly watching YouTube on his phone while moving, rampant mobile phone use, lack of indication, and general lack of courtesy all from motorised traffic. You too see all of this every day no doubt but simply choose to ignore it in line with your anti cyclist bias.
I ask you, if the cops aren't bothered to enforce any of this l, and they're not, why on earth do you think they'd take any interest at all in errant cyclists?

DirkVoodoo

Roadhawk wrote: »

(My opinion)
One day our generation will be gone and the roads will have evolved. The same way horses were phased out as a main mode of transport so to will cycling.

These evolving roads will devour us all!!!

I think you are neglecting some important information, namely that horses are expensive to buy, difficult to take care of and eventually die.

in terms of efficient modes of human transport, you can't beat the bike. Plus you get healthier doing it. There are numerous studies on the benefit of cycling to society as a whole...probably not as many on horses.

I really think you need to give someone control of your internet. Or perhaps consider a username change...you were so close to getting it right!

benjamin d

Roadhawk wrote: »

(My opinion)
One day our generation will be gone and the roads will have evolved. The same way horses were phased out as a main mode of transport so to will cycling.

I would put it to you that cycling will continue long after cars are obsolete, in cities at least.

RainyDay

triggermortis wrote: »

If a cyclist gets off his/her bike and walks with it, then they ARE a pedestrian. Trouble is, some don't get off their bikes and it annoys people. Some people in cars/vans/lorries etc don't give cyclists enough room, and that's beyond annoying, it's dangerous.
Some pedestrians would rather look at their phones instead of where they are walking..
There are idiots on/in every mode of transport and if more people were more considerate to other road/path users, things would be less stressful for everyone

Indeed, there are idiots in every mode of transport. But the idiots in cars and trucks kill 200 people each year and maim thousands of others. The idiots on bikes don't.

Roadhawk wrote: »

Well what has been done for motorists is testing, licensing, fines, penalty points, bans and legislation. Wouldn't it be great if cyclists were counted as a an equal road user at all times and not just when it suits them.

Equality is great all right - but all enforcement activity by Gardai or other enforcement bodies is risk-based. So it is most likely that they will focus on the areas of highest risk - the motorists who speed, use the phone, drive with broken lights, break one-way systems as a priority - given the 200 people each year killed by motorists.

But just for curiosity - do you ever break the speed limit when you drive?

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't usually be bothered, but that is not a correct understanding. What tests and licences and registrations create is ACCOUNTABILITY

There is no accountability without enforcement, and enforcement is lax. Look at any junction in Dublin and you'll see 1 or 2 or 3 motorists breaking the red lights on each change of lights. Where's the accountability there?

Roadhawk wrote: »

Absolutely not. But the typical laws that were being broken be these motorists have reduced since these measures were implemented. Likewise the laws being implemented for cyclists should follow the same success.

Is this now an academic exercise for you? Are you trying to reduce numbers of incidents, or are you trying to save lives? BTW, what percentage of motorists do you think break speed limits on each journey?

Baron Kurtz

They should start working on running these things adjacent to all roads. Problem solved :pac:

The Sun King

As a pedestrian, nothing gets up my pïsshole more than a cyclist on the footpath. Usually it's an old codger or some trackie wearing gom but they seem to be under the impression that they own the place.

Cyclists on the road, well I've never had a quarrel with so can't really say to much on the issue.

Flatzie_poo

coolbeans wrote: »

Pretty clueless OP. On my mile and a half walk to work this morning I witnessed speeding, red light breaking, amber gambling, footpath parking, inoperative lights, one guy clearly watching YouTube on his phone while moving?

But... did you gey my reg!!?

Danjamin1

Roadhawk wrote: »

I think cyclists should be allowed on pathways for safety. The Irish road network is not ready for unlawful cyclists. Most cyclists consider themselves pedestrians anyway.

No they f**king don't and it's ignorant opinions like your own that help drive the anti-cyclist vitriol which can lead to them not being considered legitimate road users and put them in danger from equally ignorant morons

Roadhawk

RainyDay wrote: »

So the cyclists should stop alongside these cars, like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc5VGuJvOVk

Considering the distance from where the car enters the junction to the pedestrian crossing, there is not enough time for the vehicles to pass the pedestrian crossing before the lights go green. ok there are about 3-4 cars that clearly enter the junction when the light is amber(going on red) but there are also vehicles entering with a green light and still not getting through the junction. Looks like the council need to increase the timing from when the traffic light turns red to the green light on the pedestrian crossing.
The camera mans is also mainly going be the traffic light to cross and not the pedestrian crossing light.

Looks like a death trap either way. Is this junction still this bad?

coolbeans

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

But... did you gey my reg!!?

I did but didn't bother reporting you. The cops would just bin it anyway.

CamperMan

the cyclist was on the roads before the car came along... personally, I think the roads would be safer without cars on them.

Roadhawk

RainyDay wrote: »

Indeed, there are idiots in every mode of transport. But the idiots in cars and trucks kill 200 people each year and maim thousands of others. The idiots on bikes don't.

This is like saying that motorbikes riders don't kill truck drivers in an accident so they are not a threat?

Roadhawk

The Sun King wrote: »

As a pedestrian, nothing gets up my pïsshole more than a cyclist on the footpath. Usually it's an old codger or some trackie wearing gom but they seem to be under the impression that they own the place.

Cyclists on the road, well I've never had a quarrel with so can't really say to much on the issue.

Its the same on the roads as it is on the paths. Many are rogue but not all

coolbeans

Roadhawk wrote: »

Considering the distance from where the car enters the junction to the pedestrian crossing, there is not enough time for the vehicles to pass the pedestrian crossing before the lights go green. ok there are about 3-4 cars that clearly enter the junction when the light is amber(going on red) but there are also vehicles entering with a green light and still not getting through the junction. Looks like the council need to increase the timing from when the traffic light turns red to the green light on the pedestrian crossing.
The camera mans is also mainly going be the traffic light to cross and not the pedestrian crossing light.

Looks like a death trap either way. Is this junction still this bad?

You're just making excuses for bad driving now and minimising its seriousness. There is no excuse for anything that went on in that video. None! Blatant red light breaking at a pedestrian crossing yet you just minimise this with some waffle while referring to cyclists earlier on as pests.
You really need to check your prejudice man. Unbelievable crap coming out of you today.

benjamin d

Roadhawk wrote: »

Considering the distance from where the car enters the junction to the pedestrian crossing, there is not enough time for the vehicles to pass the pedestrian crossing before the lights go green. ok there are about 3-4 cars that clearly enter the junction when the light is amber(going on red) but there are also vehicles entering with a green light and still not getting through the junction. Looks like the council need to increase the timing from when the traffic light turns red to the green light on the pedestrian crossing.
The camera mans is also mainly going be the traffic light to cross and not the pedestrian crossing light.

Looks like a death trap either way. Is this junction still this bad?

Entering on a green light and not getting through the junction means the motorists (ahem) are not using the yellow box correctly. There's no legal reason to get stuck in the box or to go through that junction on red. I used to both drive it and cycle it regularly and never got stuck or ran the red.

Liam O

The problem is in Ireland nobody can be criticised without first going on the offensive about something else.

A cyclist complains about a motorists behaviour. The response is "but cyclists do (insert complaint) too, and that's not all...".

Fact is, there are muppet cyclists and muppet motorists. Places cyclists shouldn't cycle due to lack of space for pedestrians. Lack of space given on the road by cyclists. These are issues that should be dealt with. Instead you get into the circle of blame explained above and very little is achieved.

Roadhawk

coolbeans wrote: »

You're just making excuses for bad driving now and minimising its seriousness. There is no excuse for anything that went on in that video. None! Blatant red light breaking at a pedestrian crossing yet you just minimise this with some waffle while referring to cyclists earlier on as pests.
You really need to check your prejudice man. Unbelievable crap coming out of you today.

Well technically when a vehicle enters a junction (legally of course) they are supposed to continue through the junction and not be an obstruction. Now if the pedestrian light on the other side of the junction is turn green before the vehicle can clear would this not indicate a timing issue?

Just to note there are some very same looking cyclists in this video also breaking the law. Looks like a bit of a free for all.